RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/20/2006 7:53:42 PM)
quote: I'm just curious--who's been "spoon feeding" you information about global warming? Most useful information about global warming is so arcane that you have to wade through pages of technical studies to get to it. Most people don't read about ice cores while they take their morning crap or whatever. Anyway, I'm only asking who these evil misguided people are who spoon feed the public about global warming. I'm not going to get back into the debate over global warming itself, because I don't want to have to explain things like why volcanoes don't emit more carbon than human beings. ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox News (upon occasion), Newspapers, Time Magazine, Newsweek Magazine, college professors, people who post on internet message boards... You are still missing my whole point from the beginning. My problem is not whether or not global warming exists and what does or does not cause it. My problem is with the efforts of some to use climate change as a weapon of fear in order to acquire power and implement political and social agendas with either no concern, if not malicious intent, toward others. For example, people who would put punishing taxes on others (because they deem those others to be the source of the "problem") with little or no thought as to the disruption (if not outright harm) in lives they would cause to thousands if not millions (and potentially billions) of people. I am also greatly irked by people who have a smug, "I’m so morally and intellectually superior to you" attitude because others dare to challenge their ideology. Such people are only irksome when they’re not in power but are very dangerous when they are in power. They bring misery to others while getting off on their power.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/20/2006 7:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: I'm just curious--who's been "spoon feeding" you information about global warming? Most useful information about global warming is so arcane that you have to wade through pages of technical studies to get to it. Most people don't read about ice cores while they take their morning crap or whatever. Anyway, I'm only asking who these evil misguided people are who spoon feed the public about global warming. I'm not going to get back into the debate over global warming itself, because I don't want to have to explain things like why volcanoes don't emit more carbon than human beings. ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox News (upon occasion), Newspapers, Time Magazine, Newsweek Magazine, college professors, people who post on internet message boards... Funny...if everyone under the sun were really so convinced about global warming, we would have done something by now--wouldn't ya think? quote: You are still missing my whole point from the beginning. I love how people always revert to the "you're missing my point" line when they're confronted with someone they can't argue into submission. Firmhand did it a couple of pages ago too. It must be really irksome to have so many people constantly missing your brilliant points, eh?

Marc2b -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/20/2006 11:54:58 PM)
quote: Funny...if everyone under the sun were really so convinced about global warming, we would have done something by now--wouldn't ya think? Who said anything about "everyone under the sun"? Now you’re just being snide, and proving my point in the process. In fact, you tend to be snide a lot but I’ve been trying to politely ignore it ‘til now. quote: I love how people always revert to the "you're missing my point" line when they're confronted with someone they can't argue into submission. Firmhand did it a couple of pages ago too. It must be really irksome to have so many people constantly missing your brilliant points, eh? Still being snide but that aside, you should go back and read my posts. You seem to be taking no notice of most of the things I’ve said, many of which we are in fact in agreement on, and focusing on one or two details you disagree with – and then extrapolating the fact that I disagree into broad conclusions as to my intelligence and character. You (and others on this thread) come across as unable to accept the fact that other people have a different perceptive on things and of having a need to denigrate them for it. It is this which concerns me. This seeming anger over other people daring to question your "facts," daring not to see things the way you do. It is a hallmark of the ideologue and for any ideologue the purpose of the ideology is not it’s stated purpose (in this case, saving the earth but you can just as easily substitute save the white race or save the... whatever) but is instead a vehicle for self aggrandizement at the expense of the other. It is so much fun putting the other in their place isn’t it? The difference between what you are doing and the Holocaust is a matter of degree. Now don’t flip out, I’m not accusing you of being a nazi, but you are standing at the foot of the path that can lead there. I don’t mean believing the nazi ideology but rather the gross mis-use of power to fill the need for self satisfaction gained at the expense of the other. This need for self satisfaction at the expense of the other seems to be inborn in people and I do not exempt myself from it but I do believe that each and every one of us must strive to overcome it because then, and only then, can we (the human race) find consensus and truly begin to solve our problems. That’s a hugely tall order for the human race, I’ll admit, and the outlook is less than optimistic but hope springs eternal, damn it. And if you don’t think any of this applies to you, ask yourself why you think I have a need to argue people into submission. I don’t seek to argue people into submission, I seek to persuade, and perhaps be persuaded. Are you sure it’s not you who is seeking to argue people into submission? You should seek to persuade but you never will by being snide. All you’ll do then is cause them to dig their heels in even further – or is that the point? As I reviewed this thread as it wound from capitalism to mediaeval hygiene to volcanos, I realized what this thread is really about: two different groups of people with two diametrically opposed world views. The question then is one of respect. Do you have any respect for others with different views? If not, how can you be trusted with power over them? And why would you trust anyone with power who is not respectful of other viewpoints? You may not be the captain of the boat but you are helping to row. I’ve said this before on other threads but it bears repeating: "If we deny the other, we deny ourselves." – J. Michael Straczynski. While I don’t plan on going anywhere anytime soon, this is the last time I stay up this late over this thread. Fun is fun but jeez...

Zensee -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 1:58:43 AM)
I think most of us got your point about entrenched opinions the first few times you made it, Marc. And while it is sweet of you to include yourself amongst the great unwashed I wonder why you take such care explaining the precise manner in which the rest of us stink. Calling people ideologues and borderline Nazis is a bit much. That’s the heavy artillery of labeling. Yourself and Firmhand seem to be the primary source of ideological finger-pointing in this thread, taking every opportunity to divert the discussion from the science, to the motives and methods of those here that disagree with your own entrenched position. pot / kettle / black - Instead of issuing "If we deny the other, we deny ourselves," as a dare to us, why not accept it as a challenge for yourself. Remember though, while this warm fuzzy works well for emotional situations it has limited value in science where there is usually only one best answer.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 2:42:06 AM)
Oh please. Someone disagrees with you about global warming...well, more than that, come to think of it: someone points out a lot of factual errors you make in a conversation about global warming...and all you know how to do is bring up the Holocaust. (And here I was thinking you were being rude to call me an ideologue! But that was mere child's play in the hands of an expert like you. What's next? I'm an evil Kazakhstani scientist hell-bent on world domination?) It's INCREDIBLE how you people start flipping out when someone disagrees with you. quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b The difference between what you are doing and the Holocaust is a matter of degree.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 4:55:19 AM)
FR: marc ... kudos. Very well said. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 5:04:20 AM)
BM4, If'n ya wanna flirt, just email me. [:D] If'n ya wanna seriously discuss issues, expound upon them. As far as hard work ... it's usually a good thing, but isn't sufficient unto its self to guarantee anything, much less success. Nor is hard work always a prerequisite for success. It's just that people who work hard tend to overcome life's obstacles more often than those who do not. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:12:46 AM)
Zensee, 1. Where do you get this stuff? Certainly not from "unbiased" sources like Noam Chomsky and the Daily Kaos. 2. Please consult a book on world history before issuing more fanciful inventions. There is no relationship between the principle of private property and rule of law. None. Even a cursory education in economics and world history would clarify things for you. I actually find it amusing that you are so adamant in your declaration that "everyone knows" that there is no relationship between property rights and the rule of law. It's pretty much a given by most credible thinkers on the subject. In lieu of going down to the local bookstore, or enrolling in a local class in the subject, perhaps doing a little research on google might be benefical. I googled "capitalism property rights law". You can do something similar. Here was one interesting "non-philosophical" paper on the subject that might be of interest: Chicago-Kent College of Law: Property, Markets, and Capitalism in the Third World by Prof Henry H. Perritt, Jr. Here is an available course about economics, but the part you should look at first is this lesson plan: Property Rights and the Rule of Law. It's a pretty non-technical discussion and overview of the relationship between property ownership and the rule of law. As well as capitalism. The concept isn't really controversal at all, I'm afraid. Want me to 'splain it to ya? 3. The real start of freedom was the universal franchise, regardless of gender, race, education, religion, class or (especially) land ownership. Now, that's a little more debatable, but I'd have to come out on the side of saying your statement was untrue. But, I guess, it depends on how you define "freedom". Which is a point you make after this statement. 4. Science was the adopted (some might say abducted), post inquisition child of Western Europe. uh ... you manage to insult the West and Christianity in the same sentence, as well as display a less than stellar understanding of what "science" even is. 5. The orient (Middle East, China, India et al) had well entrenched traditions of science and freethinking long before they became permissible in the west. Very untrue. The ME, China, India et al did not have "science" at all. They had some pretty heavy duty philosophers at times (as did the West). They invented some things. They discovered some things ... but science, I'm afraid, wasn't part of their traditions. 6. Not to mention hygiene. True dat. 7. Our post WW2 affluence is based largely on the discovery that war is good business, if the battles are fought on foreign soil. Uh ... no. War is not good for an overall economy, although certain firms may benefit from increased orders and business for their particular products and services. For a while, it was theorized that WWII pulled the US out of the depression, but this is actually not true, and has basically been discounted, although the meme still resonants with some with which it re-inforces their world view (the "Capitalist are war-mongers" crowd, primarily). 8. This dovetails into the capitalist philosophy of constant and unlimited growth; that an industry MUST exhibit annual and significant growth in profit, market share, revenue and production to demonstrate its viability. Again ... "uh ... no". I'm not sure the way you defined "capitalist philosophy" is very accurate. 9. Some manufactured demand for goods and a little planned obsolescence to grease the wheels and there you go. There I go? Where are we going? What is a "manufactured demand for goods"? 10. Ultimately an unsustainable* approach – but hey, let the grand kids worry about the real cost, right?* As I have said, and you have demonstrated, you detest capitalism (for whatever reason - you are "philosophically opposed" to it, anyway), and the concerns about global warming is a real gift for you to press your ideology. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:28:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY As far as hard work ... it's usually a good thing, but isn't sufficient unto its self to guarantee anything, much less success. This reminds me of some advice my brother said his father in law gave him (an American). 'Never, never, work hard to earn a living. Work hard at accummulating wealth. There is a big difference.'

seeksfemslave -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:42:54 AM)
I haven't Googled a thing, I haven't even read much of the thread but surely there must be a connection between formalised ownership of property and the Rule of Law, otherwise how were property diputes settled when not subject to the rule of law. Or location of bounderies etc. Capitalism in its extreme unfettered form leads to more and more wealth in fewer and fewer hands. The cause of Global Warming is NOT proven, despite what the doomongers say. I came across a statistic that claimed that the average yearly INCREASE in temperature has not INCREASED over the last hundred years. ie the rate of change of the rate of change is not +ve. which is required if Global Warming is man made. With regard to hard work it has been my experience that those who most often advocate its virtue rarely do much themselves. I apologise if I haven't demolished anyone's pet theory. I will try on my next post. !

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:53:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster quote: You are still missing my whole point from the beginning. I love how people always revert to the "you're missing my point" line when they're confronted with someone they can't argue into submission. Firmhand did it a couple of pages ago too. It must be really irksome to have so many people constantly missing your brilliant points, eh? No, not irksome at all LaM. Just tiresome. There are always some people who have a problem with critical thinking, and some emotional baggage with an open debate. You, for example, seem to react in a very emotional manner to any viewpoint other than your own, and then use your talents for sarcasm, obfuscation and ridicule to attempt to demean and belittle others and shut down the conversation. The reason that I often just let you have the field (agree to disagree) is that after I've explained my point of view and reasoning to you several times, and had you constantly come back with wisecracks and insults, I just figure that it isn't discussion or debate that you are interested in, but in making yourself look and sound superior. Because that seems to be your driving need: telling anyone with whom you disagrees how dumb, stupid, and uneducated they are - and how worldly, intelligent and superior you are. shrugs Some people need that reinforcement, I guess. If that is what you need, though, I just as soon talk to other people who - although we may disagree - can still hold a reasonably civil conversation (such as meatcleaver). So, rather than get into a "my dick is bigger than your dick" argument with you, I simply let you enjoy your feelings of superiority. FirmKY

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:56:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Actually solar cells and wind turbines are built by corparations with materials collected by other corparations. luckydog1: Are you implying that all the treehuggers thought that stuff was left by the easterbunny? While I believe that wind turbines have a limited role in energy production solar on the other hand holds out the promise of broad scale sustainable environmentaly sound energy production. thompson

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 6:58:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I haven't Googled a thing, I haven't even read much of the thread but surely there must be a connection between formalised ownership of property and the Rule of Law, otherwise how were property diputes settled when not subject to the rule of law. Or location of bounderies etc. Exactly, seeks. That's it in a nutshell, for the most part. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave With regard to hard work it has been my experience that those who most often advocate its virtue rarely do much themselves. True. Much like the people who talk on endlessly about how "honest" they are. I always check my wallet. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:05:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I haven't Googled a thing, I haven't even read much of the thread but surely there must be a connection between formalised ownership of property and the Rule of Law, otherwise how were property diputes settled when not subject to the rule of law. Or location of bounderies etc. Exactly, seeks. That's it in a nutshell, for the most part. Yes, the rule of law is for the protection of property and its owners against those that have nothing, it has nothing to do with justice which is entirely another matter.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:16:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yes, the rule of law is for the protection of property and its owners against those that have nothing, it has nothing to do with justice which is entirely another matter. Ahhh ... now "justice"! That's an interesting concept. I don't think I mentioned "justice" anywhere. [:D] But, while you agree that ownership of property leads to the rule of law, what you are missing is that it gave us the concept of "rights" and "personal freedom" as well. Capitalism requires rules and stability (another argument against capitalism being partial to "war-mongering"). Once you "give" property rights to individuals, then the concepts of "personal rights" and "personal freedom" start being required. For, if you have property rights, but not the right to life or freedom, of what value are the property rights? None. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:19:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY But, while you agree that ownership of property lead to the rule of law, what you are missing is that it gave us the concept of "rights" and "personal freedom" as well. No it doesn't. Law can be abitary and often is, defending those in whose interests the law is made against those people in whose interest the law might be against.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:21:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY But, while you agree that ownership of property lead to the rule of law, what you are missing is that it gave us the concept of "rights" and "personal freedom" as well. No it doesn't. Law can be abitary and often is, defending those in whose interests the law is made against those people in whose interest the law might be against. You are talking micro. I'm talking macro. And, again, we are actually, kinda-sorta agreeing with each other. And, actually, it's a little more complex than all of that. Other cultural issues play a part as well. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:31:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY But, while you agree that ownership of property lead to the rule of law, what you are missing is that it gave us the concept of "rights" and "personal freedom" as well. No it doesn't. Law can be abitary and often is, defending those in whose interests the law is made against those people in whose interest the law might be against. You are talking micro. I'm talking macro. And, again, we are actually, kinda-sorta agreeing with each other. FirmKY No we aren't. Law without justice is an evil. Freedom doesn't exist and what we call freedom is an accommodation between the rulers and the ruled. Law is and has been used for the appropriation of land and wealth, for the protection of owners at the expense of those that have nothing. Without justice, law is oppression.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:43:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Law without justice is an evil. Freedom doesn't exist and what we call freedom is an accommodation between the rulers and the ruled. Law is and has been used for the appropriation of land and wealth, for the protection of owners at the expense of those that have nothing. Without justice, law is oppression. sigh meat, I think you and I live in the same physical world, but an entirely different mental one. From your above paragraph I take: 1. Evil exists. What is evil, then, to you? Some sort of definition or examples? 2. Freedom doesn't exist. Is that really what you mean? Has it ever existed? Under what conditions could it exist? 3. All laws are evil. I'm not totally sure you mean this, but I read your words several times, and this is the only conclusion that currently makes sense to me. Are you an anarchist? 4. Capitalism lead to the rule of law, but the rule of law is an evil thing. Is this an accurate statement of your belief? FirmKY

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 7:59:32 AM)
I have a question for the greens. How many of you have solar powered homes or wind powered, or have a hybrid vehicle or one that runs off bio-fuel ? And these things besides the hybrids have been around for going on 20-30 years! I bet maybe one might have a hybrid, maybe. Doubtful anyone here has done anything at all personally. So, if that's the case, what the hell difference is there between a capitalist eating up the resources and and a theoritical "green". I'd say absolutely nothing. So, I have to ask what is the point here? If we as individuals aren't taking responsiblity for the situation, why would corporations do anything? I mean seriosuly do we hold them to a higher moral standard than ourselves. LOL, that would imply alot about us. And actually some companies are doing at least something that is more than 99% of the population. It's bizarre how everyone fixates on corporations and don't even look at themselves. Oh the evil capitalists, are killing the planet. I disagree it's peoples lack of follow through that is killing the planet. It's the same as the argument if you don't vote you can't bitch. If you don't do anything to change the system, you are condoning the system, regardless of lip service to contrary. I find it amazing, that people talk of flying all over the world, and in the same breath say "damn capitalists". LOL, Stop flying all over the place and buy some solar panels, or invest in a "green" company. Jeez, does anyone actually believe capitalism, is going away anytime soon. No! So, what is the point of even talking about a "fantasy" world where instantly we all live in a utopian communal. It's not going to happen. So, instead of whining, it should be like some fantasy of reality, it is not going to be in our lifetime. Why not invest in companies that are not greedy, earth killing monster corporations. HMMMM. Companies do what there investors tell them to do. It's really that simple. The reason the generic "company" is a sociopath is because the investors want it to be a money making sociopath. They simple guage it by return on investment. They generally don't look at how the money was made, they simply look at how much money was made. It's not capitalism, it's people in general. Out of sight, Out of mind. If I don't know it's happening then I'm not responsible. But I still want a return. I have another question. How many people are invested in mutual funds or have an IRA? And how many people that are invested in the market, actually know where there money is invested. More than likely most people on this board are invested in the very companies they are villifying as killing the planet and causing all this evil captialism, but at the same time expect a healthy return on investment, while knowing nothing about the companies they expect a return from. It's HUMAN NATURE to want to walk the high moral path, and ignore that which paved the path they walk on. (hmmm that's pretty good line, hehe) See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. The solution is as plain as day, but it won't happen at least to the extent it needs to. People need to back the words with money. Instead of investing in the nice easy mutual fund, set up a self managed IRA account and hand pick where your money is going and research the companies, or invest in those "green" mutual funds. Those people doing that can talk about priorities. Instead of taking a drunken vacation half way around the world. Buy some solar panels and an inverter. Plant a fucking garden, and reduce your contribution to industrial agriculture(major polluter). Stop buying cheap shit made from plastic. Recycle your stuff if possible. Try to get a job at a company that adheres to the standards you uphold. If building a house, check out environmentally safe building materials. Start a business that is environmentally helpful. And I'm really disturbed about this whole argument there aren't enough resources in the world for everyone. There actually are plenty of most resources, but the problem there isn't enough cheap energy for everyone. So we take the raw materials to continually make new products becuase it's cheaper that way. Some things take alot of energy to recycle(learned this when researching what can and can't be recycled and why). So, it's a simple math problem, if it costs more to recycle certain items in energy than the result material is worth, then obviously, it get's trashed. Unlike, some peoples opinion, it nearly is almost universally about energy(That is a complete FACT, not opinion). Alot of what is disgarded is recyclable but not financially viable because of energy costs. The real solution most of the resource problems is energy and figuring out a sustainable renewable energy source that will push recycling of many more materials into the profit range. I'd prefer that solution instead of the tax everyone to oblivion argument and push energy prices artificially through the roof for no ones economic benefit but the governments. And of course that goes back to investing in companies that have that as a goal. And a generic energy tax does nothing to address the costs of recycling which is a huge reason we use so many raw resources. Most things can in theory be recycled, but aren't because of the costs involved(mainly energy costs). Oh, crap I forgot those things require effort and don't involve pussy or beer. sigh :(, better cry to the government to do it, because I'm to busy arguing about it. But arguing about whether global warming is happening or not is irrelevant. If you believe it, what difference does it make if someone else doesn't. And if you believe it is happening and still continue in the same fashion as before(99% of the population here), what difference does it make if you believe, because nothing changed. It's obvious what needs to be done, but it seems everyone is just pointing the finger. Oh it's the corporations, it's capitalism, when really it's all of us. Yes, some don't drive a car. Well, compared to third world countries riding a bus is alot of resources, having electricity is using alot of energy. And currently there is not enough renewable energy resources to even allow all the people to have adequate service for those things. So, equalizing between the developed world and undeveloped resource deprived world wouldn't work, becuase we'd all have to live way below even the standards the greenest of the greens would find acceptable. Better solution is everyone that cares about such things, buy solar, wind, etc... The average rooftop in the US, has more than enough surface area to provide all the power the house would need. No grid. And then buy the new plug-in electric hybirds in 2008,(No grid, almost no oil) for a total investment of less than 50 thousand dollars with the car. Really with the grants should be lower 40's. That could be financed for like 900 a month, and you'd have a new car, solar, and using very little oil. And the solar panels generally are rated for 20 years. It won't happen people need to do all those imporant things like vacation in chile, or buy that nice new sports car(which would be more than the cost of the solar installation with tax rebates). But if even just those that are supposedly die hard and commited greens did it, the effect would be more than significant. But almost nobody is, which says alot about all the diehards as a general rule. I'm doing it though, I've called the solar panel company already, and plan on it hopefully this spring/summer. And I'm filthy capitalist. LOL. whatever. Sorry, that was long. That's how I see it, feel free to disagree..... Oh yeah forget, IMO. LOL.

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