RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:09:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver General point. The real problem for the west is that it is always concerned with short term profits when it comes to energy instead of creating strategic policy. Before Thatcher destroyed the British coal industry (20 years ago), it was reckoned clean coal fired power stations were less than twenty years away. Gas suddenly became cheaper, research and development was dropped and coal was dumped in favour of gas. I'm not saying clean coal fired power stations would have came about, I don't know how realistic it was in the first place, I'm just illustrating the lack of strategy in western countries. Now with dependency for energy on Russia growing, we are back to talking about sinking new mines in Britain to diversify energy. So there is one government department talking about an expanding an energy that will pollute while another department talks about reducing pollution and greenhouse gases. Talk about heads up arses. Where is the nearest brick wall we can all smash our heads against? Hey, meatcleaver ... WE AGREE on something! [:D][:D] FirmKY

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:12:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx NeedstoUseYou: I have been off the grid for 20 years now 100% solar. One dedicated electric car, a sedan that runs on homemade biodiesel, a pick up truck that runs on homemade methane. As for the market no one handles my money except me. thompson I guess that would make you the only one here really that has put there money into the problem. I really hope to by the summer. And my reasons are selfish capitalist reasons, I think it will be a very good investment as I do believe the price of "generic energy" of all types will be going up over the next ten years. But you have my respect for doing something. Most people just complain and that is what gets on my nerves a bit.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:15:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx NeedstoUseYou: I have been off the grid for 20 years now 100% solar. One dedicated electric car, a sedan that runs on homemade biodiesel, a pick up truck that runs on homemade methane. As for the market no one handles my money except me. thompson Good stuff! Congrats, thompson. Those are my plans, pretty much, as well. FirmKY

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:16:57 AM)
WHAT argument? He abandoned his arguments when I pointed out the very website where he found his nonsense about volcanoes. Then he started telling me over and over that I'm just an ideologue. Look, one of two things is going to happen. Picture yourself ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line. EITHER you're going to be living in a world that's so polluted that municipal water will cost 50 cents a gallon, fish will be off the menu, and no one will go outside between 11 A.M. and 4 P.M.--and you'll be saying, "God damn it, that ideologue on Collarme was right." OR you're going to be putting around in your electric car, yearning for the good old days of pickup trucks and SUV's, saying "God damn it, that ideologue on Collarme was right." I am just the messenger. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY All are highly emotional words and phrases. All attack the person rather than his argument. None are conducive to a real discussion.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:20:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy General Motors pulled the EV1. People staged a protest- arrests were made. How does this happen. Gluttony and greed is nothing new to mankind. but in an ear of mass communication- a thrust for the public good ought to be a force to make such happen. Westerners have been conditioned to be CONSUMERS. Not Citizens. It is a no brainer to know that this is UNSUSTAINABLE. The Soviets once said they would sell us the rope to hang oursleves. Seems we not only bought the rope- but the patent and copywrite to it!! I know I've looked into it. The EV1 was not a mass market product, that was the problem. It was a good product for a small niche of people. I think it was very stupid for them to handle it the way they did, but don't really think it's a big oil conspiracy in this case. I mean the auto industry hasn't exactly stopped selling electric cars, they sell hybrids which are much more practical and can function as a families sole vehicle. Also GM is making a plug-in hybrid, which can be used just like the EV1 if you want to as you will be able to recharge it like the EV1 but it will also be able to run off gas for long trips. That is actually better than the EV1 to me, as you don't have to have a long trip vehicle and just use the EV1 for intown, but rather can just run off electricity and charge at home when possible with this new car they are making and still be able to burn dinosaur bones for long hauls. So, I'm not down on GM, and don't think the reason the car companies don't make pure electrics is because they are beholden to oil. It's batteries, they just can't hold enough energy to serve as most families sole vehicle. I mean I really want one of these plug-in hybrids, but I doubt I'd have bought the EV1 because I'd have needed another vehicle to, and that doesn't make sense to me, anyway.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:22:19 AM)
You know, we'd also be Darwinizing a super massive bureaucracy that we're already dealing with. It's called the IRS. quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Well, since the criteria for how these taxes would be laid wasn't said, I just went off my gut instinct. Which is probably tax gas, tax cars by make and model, tax on electricity usage, tax by industry. That is the only way I can see to do it without creating a super massive bueracracy.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:26:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster You know, we'd also be Darwinizing a super massive bureaucracy that we're already dealing with. It's called the IRS. quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Well, since the criteria for how these taxes would be laid wasn't said, I just went off my gut instinct. Which is probably tax gas, tax cars by make and model, tax on electricity usage, tax by industry. That is the only way I can see to do it without creating a super massive bueracracy. It would probably be simpler if you just stated you tax code. Because I have no problem with entirely replacing the IRS with use taxes, but as I didn't see it stated that one would replace the other, it was assumed both would exist. I'm completely for a 100 percent use tax based system. But going off the previous posts(sorry if I missed it way back somewhere), it wasn't stated these would replace existing tax structure. So, yeah, I'd go for it if all taxes were use taxes and the cost of administration was equal or less than the current system. Actually, I'd prefer a completely pay for use tax system, as currently you pay taxes regardless of what you consume, and thus this does not encourage savings. If the tax structure was set up to where living frugal lent itself to tax savings, that almost certainly would lead to some degree of reduced consumption. Maybe we are just disagreeing on the missing details, I don't know.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:30:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I was being lazy, in emphasizing law without justice is draconian and oppressive. No real argument there, then. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Read Sartre, I don't have the time or the will to explain why freedom doesn't exist but anyone with a modicom of education should be able to work it out. What we lazily call freedom is a consensus, an accommodation so people can co-exist relatively peacefully. I sorry, but this sounds very ... subjective. I guess if you define "freedom" as not being subject to anyone else's whim, needs or desires (including the laws), nor being subject to the laws of nature, then you could be "free" in the sense you mean. This is a very utopian definition of "freedom". But society and nature has it's own demands, so, in a way, whether or not anyone is "free" depends on their definition. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Without justice, law is oppression. True ... but what is "justice"? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Capitalism didn't lead to the rule of law, the appropriation of land and land ownership requires law. No, not true at all. The appropriation of land and land ownership only requires the strength to hold it against any encroachment. That's called "the law of the jungle", so maybe, that counts as a "law"? Capitalism best works in societies in which the laws are constant, and stable. The morality of the laws are another issue. FirmKY

pahunkboy -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:31:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy General Motors pulled the EV1. People staged a protest- arrests were made. How does this happen. Gluttony and greed is nothing new to mankind. but in an ear of mass communication- a thrust for the public good ought to be a force to make such happen. Westerners have been conditioned to be CONSUMERS. Not Citizens. It is a no brainer to know that this is UNSUSTAINABLE. The Soviets once said they would sell us the rope to hang oursleves. Seems we not only bought the rope- but the patent and copywrite to it!! I know I've looked into it. The EV1 was not a mass market product, that was the problem. It was a good product for a small niche of people. I think it was very stupid for them to handle it the way they did, but don't really think it's a big oil conspiracy in this case. I mean the auto industry hasn't exactly stopped selling electric cars, they sell hybrids which are much more practical and can function as a families sole vehicle. Also GM is making a plug-in hybrid, which can be used just like the EV1 if you want to as you will be able to recharge it like the EV1 but it will also be able to run off gas for long trips. That is actually better than the EV1 to me, as you don't have to have a long trip vehicle and just use the EV1 for intown, but rather can just run off electricity and charge at home when possible with this new car they are making and still be able to burn dinosaur bones for long hauls. So, I'm not down on GM, and don't think the reason the car companies don't make pure electrics is because they are beholden to oil. It's batteries, they just can't hold enough energy to serve as most families sole vehicle. I mean I really want one of these plug-in hybrids, but I doubt I'd have bought the EV1 because I'd have needed another vehicle to, and that doesn't make sense to me, anyway. IMO- the US auto industry sealed its fate with that move. Any plants left here will be token. China and otehr low wage places are taking the lead. This is odd- dad was GM, mom was Ford. I sorta liked Plymouth. But always American! We are so screwed in this country. These days are no diff the the robber baron days. The difference is- we may very well be the last generation to live well. :-(

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:31:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth L&M, What is your stance on the solution that would have the greatest immediate impact on burning fossil fuels - nuclear power? It works in most of the other 'western' countries. Mercnbeth: Will you explain what you mean by nuclear power working in other western countries. What has been shown with the Edison company in California is that the cost of nuclear plants is subsidized by the tax payers and the cost of disposal are ignored. So if the real cost of a nuclear plant were all on the table it is not as cost efffective or less poluting than conventional powerplants. I do believe that the technology will develope and it will in the future be a viable source of cheap energy. But not until and unless they find a way to solve the disposal problem. thompson

Sanity -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Sure sounds to me like the greedy capitalistic world economy, driven by the heartless bastard American corporations intent on globalization are really stinking up the place, doesn't it? Yes, well... too bad the luster tarnishes when you consider that the top 1% now owns 40% of the wealth, and the top 5% owns 95%. If wealth were finite that might be a problem, but since it isn't, and because anyone can CREATE wealth, I say let everyone work hard to get ahead. Don't punish those who do!!!

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:40:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity If wealth were finite that might be a problem, but since it isn't, and because anyone can CREATE wealth, I say let everyone work hard to get ahead. Don't punish those who do!!! I agree. But almost without exception, all those who don't like capitalism see the world as a zero-sum game i.e. what others have, makes the total pie of economic wealth less for those who don't have. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:44:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Mercnbeth: Will you explain what you mean by nuclear power working in other western countries. What has been shown with the Edison company in California is that the cost of nuclear plants is subsidized by the tax payers and the cost of disposal are ignored. So if the real cost of a nuclear plant were all on the table it is not as cost efffective or less poluting than conventional powerplants. I do believe that the technology will develope and it will in the future be a viable source of cheap energy. But not until and unless they find a way to solve the disposal problem. thompson Google "France nuclear energy". FirmKY

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:44:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver General point. The real problem for the west is that it is always concerned with short term profits when it comes to energy instead of creating strategic policy. Before Thatcher destroyed the British coal industry (20 years ago), it was reckoned clean coal fired power stations were less than twenty years away. Gas suddenly became cheaper, research and development was dropped and coal was dumped in favour of gas. I'm not saying clean coal fired power stations would have came about, I don't know how realistic it was in the first place, I'm just illustrating the lack of strategy in western countries. Now with dependency for energy on Russia growing, we are back to talking about sinking new mines in Britain to diversify energy. So there is one government department talking about an expanding an energy that will pollute while another department talks about reducing pollution and greenhouse gases. Talk about heads up arses. Where is the nearest brick wall we can all smash our heads against? meatcleaver: I believe we can find that brick wall around the powerplant...lets stop by the bulldog and then go bang our heads against the wall...it probably wont hurt any less it is just that we wont notice it till tomorrow.[;)] thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 9:49:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Mercnbeth: Will you explain what you mean by nuclear power working in other western countries. What has been shown with the Edison company in California is that the cost of nuclear plants is subsidized by the tax payers and the cost of disposal are ignored. So if the real cost of a nuclear plant were all on the table it is not as cost efffective or less poluting than conventional powerplants. I do believe that the technology will develope and it will in the future be a viable source of cheap energy. But not until and unless they find a way to solve the disposal problem. thompson Google "France nuclear energy". FirmKY FirmhandKY: The french do the same as Southern California Edison...many of us know of the french nuclear endeavour but the fact remains that they have the same problems of disposal and the costs of fabrication. The fact that they and others are doing it does not change the problem. thompson

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 10:10:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY NeedToUseYou, Really, really excellent, common sense post. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] Taking off on a tangent (well, maybe not with my and meatcleavers above developing discussion about "justice"), I wanted to comment on this paragraph: quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou The reason the generic "company" is a sociopath is because the investors want it to be a money making sociopath. They simple guage it by return on investment. They generally don't look at how the money was made, they simply look at how much money was made. I think this is a true statement for the most part. Which leads me to asking the question: what ways can we, as a society, try to ensure morality in the actions that people and corporations take? meatcleaver is touching on the concept of "evil" and "justice" in his above posts, and I think that is another fruitful area of discussion. I could envision a capitalistic society in which there was no morality, and little justice (maybe I read too much science fiction. Currently reading Richard Morgan's "Kovac" trilogy). I think the most attractive "free" society, in which morality and justice are reinforced along with the freedom of inquiry and the freedom of economic activity and property rights, is one in which there is a supporting code of ethics, a morality, a system of beliefs that is related and reinforcing in that society. In Western society, that morality has been provided by Christianity, for the most part. *This is humor right?* I've had discussions about whether or not humanism can substitute for Christianity, in becoming that moral force in civil society, but I'm not convinced it can be. Christianity has also been the philosophical breeding ground for science and for capitalism. Taken together, capitalism, Christianity and science are the three legs that form the basis of the modern Western world. Common buddy tell me that you are just funnin' with me The question becomes whether or not the two off-shoots of the Christian tradition (capitalism and science) can be successfully transplanted to social environments that aren't from a Christian background. The jury is still out in my mind, although Japan, South Korea and several other Asian societies seem to be successful so far. In the rest of the world, the picture isn't as rosy. I wonder if the US were to withdraw from the world into isolationism again, You are going to have to help me out here...just when was the US isolationist? thompson whether or not the world economic order would survive, or collapse into Mercantilism. Plenty of stuff to chew over. FirmKY

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 10:13:23 AM)
Yes, I said that twice. Firmhand pointedly ignored it when he accused me of wanting to tax everyone into oblivion (all the while complaining that I keep missing his points, of course). I was kind of hoping that someone would fulfill my perverse fantasy and call me an evil scientist bent on world domination, but I guess I'll have to content myself with being an ideologue and crypto-fascist. quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I'm completely for a 100 percent use tax based system. But going off the previous posts(sorry if I missed it way back somewhere), it wasn't stated these would replace existing tax structure.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 10:14:41 AM)
Oh God, I'm lucky I missed that the first time around. This is what happens when I stop reading Firmhand's monographs. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I think the most attractive "free" society, in which morality and justice are reinforced along with the freedom of inquiry and the freedom of economic activity and property rights, is one in which there is a supporting code of ethics, a morality, a system of beliefs that is related and reinforcing in that society. In Western society, that morality has been provided by Christianity, for the most part. *This is humor right?*

thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 10:29:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Sure sounds to me like the greedy capitalistic world economy, driven by the heartless bastard American corporations intent on globalization are really stinking up the place, doesn't it? Yes, well... too bad the luster tarnishes when you consider that the top 1% now owns 40% of the wealth, and the top 5% owns 95%. If wealth were finite that might be a problem, but since it isn't, and because anyone can CREATE wealth, I say let everyone work hard to get ahead. Don't punish those who do!!! Sanity: I do not believe anyone is talking about punishing those who work hard to get ahead. What is being talked about is that if someone hauls shit for a living you are not allowed to dump it in my back yard. At one time I lived next to an Edison power plant and daily saw the effects of their smoke stack on my house, my car and my life. At the same time I worked for a company that made smoke stack scrubbers that would render any smoke stack clean. Now since the Edison company is a state monoply. They get to be the single supplier of electricity in exchange they are gauarenteed a profit as a percentage of their costs. One would think that if they put in the stack scrubbers that they would then make more money baised on the increased costs. Why they resisted this until the government forced them to is beyond me....likewise the auto manufacturers who resisted seatbelt, and airbags. Here was a way to gaurentee higher profits. They were never asked to put the seatbelts or airbags in for free. The profit margins on the seatbelts and airbags was and is large but still they spent tons of money lobbying to prevent the implimentation. Here the government was saying here is another five hundred to a thousand dollars per unit and the automakers are digging in their heels saying no no...kinda boggles the mind doesn't it? thompson

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/21/2006 10:31:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Yes, I said that twice. Firmhand pointedly ignored it when he accused me of wanting to tax everyone into oblivion (all the while complaining that I keep missing his points, of course). I was kind of hoping that someone would fulfill my perverse fantasy and call me an evil scientist bent on world domination, but I guess I'll have to content myself with being an ideologue and crypto-fascist. quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I'm completely for a 100 percent use tax based system. But going off the previous posts(sorry if I missed it way back somewhere), it wasn't stated these would replace existing tax structure. Here I'm make it up to you. Your a evil scientist bent on world domination. Making dreams come true one pervert at a time. [:)]

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