RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

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meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 8:40:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I think it is "highly likely" MC that you are confusing what is said for public consumption and what is really believed. In other words its political, be it either of the Left or Right. The Right's position is usually based on pragmatism with a large dose of self interest, the PC Left's is a mish mash of Utopian idealism and can be seen to make things worse when ever it is tried. Politicians get away with shit because people shrug their shoulders and say, well that's politics. Meanwhile politicians are exploiting and theiving from you, me and any other poor bastard they can roll. Most people shrug their shoulders because they are happy with the trinkets they are given for their compliance.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 11:17:06 AM)
Been away and missed much of the earlier posts. Attched link goes to the Joint science acadamies statement: Global Response to climate change. The next update from the IPCC (Intergovenmental Panel on Climate Change) is due to provide an update on the science next year. With improved research the range in potential forcasts are going to be reduced i.e. the worst predictions will be reduced and the miniml impact predictions will be further debunked. http://www.royalsociety.co.uk/displaypagedoc.asp?id=20742 (I couldn't find the link on the National Academy of Sciences USA site) If you are ill and go to the doctor, are referred to the top consultants and then have the diagnosis confirmed by the top 8 committess of consultants, there is a statistical chance that they are wrong, but most people would accept the diagnosis and say ok what treatment do we commence..(of course the odd nutter says no) For insurance premiums we generally say paying 5% of the capital cost of an item as the annual insurance premium is a little high but certainly within a capitalistic sense makes sound risk management. Spend 1% of global GDP (same amount as spent on marketing each year) to reduce the impact of global climate change 20% reduction in GDP.(source Stern Report) Neither the "end of the world is nigh environmentalists, or the "to stupid to understand / corrupt to do anything denialists" are helping. Act Local and Think Global is the only course. Referring to earlier comment, reduce beef intake by 30% not ban all meat, would be an example, targetted energy efficiency drive in company to reduce costs of fuel by 5% would be another......both very easy to achieve. Of course bigger motivator for US right wing may be act now or have another 100 million people migrating your way in the future.... Have a good Christmas y'al, NB read the history of asbestos to realise just how capable Humans are of dening the blindingly obvious...... Dtes

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 12:55:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Europe could reduce its energy consumption by 50% by the year 2050 without the collapse of civilisation as we know it. America, starting form a higher energy use could reduce its energy by 70% by the same year. This can all be done by cutting out waste and using technology we already have. The only thing that is lacking is the political will because so many people have their head in the sand and refuse to modify their proliferate life styles. Energy is going to get more and more expensive anyway with growing demand and diminishing resources so global warming or not, conservation makes sense even if you apply purely materialist concerns. Europe could reduce its energy consumption by 50% by the year 2050 without the collapse of civilisation as we know it. America, starting form a higher energy use could reduce its energy by 70% by the same year. This can all be done by cutting out waste and using technology we already have. meat, You know ... I've seen a lot of figures like that bandied about. What I haven't seen is anything ... anything at all that backs it up with a hard plan (or even a soft plan) to accomplish it. I'd prefer a detailed analysis, citing exactly how these reductions could be made, and the changes in society, the technologies to be implemented, and the effects on society and economies. In lieu of that, even a somewhat thought-out guideline on how to accomplish something approaching your figures would do, and allow me to make some of my own estimates of the results. Also, what I've not seen is the feedback mechanism, that would give us a target of energy reduction that would stop, and then reverse "global warming". Has anyone seen that kind of math, or theory? (In other words, how much CO2 would we have to stop producing, or even take out of the earth's carbon system in order to stop and then reverse a warming trend?) If you don't have anything to back up these claims, then quoting percentages is simply a debating technique that hurts your own argument when you get called on them. I'm calling. Give me info to chew on, please, and we can discuss the details, and not the philosophy. Energy is going to get more and more expensive anyway with growing demand and diminishing resources so global warming or not, conservation makes sense even if you apply purely materialist concerns. uh, that's called "the free market" aka capitalism. So, you are saying that even if we take no actions, that the free market will take care of the problem anyway? So why are we having this discussion about capitalism causing global warming at all, if it's a self correcting problem? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Well I guess manufacturing a war and invading fuel rich countries is always a possibility. After all when it comes to resources, capitalism very quickly forgets about the rule of law. See ... just gotta get an Anti-American dig in don't you? You think that helps convince anyone, or does it simply help to releases some of the built up frustration and anger you seem to wallow in? FirmKY

luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 12:57:43 PM)
Meat says, "Well excuse me if I want those that consider themselves so lofty, to practice what they preach." Then quit using manufactured or transported products. Quit flying around the world. Quit being an artist, isn't art sonombulistic crap? Consider that intellectualism itself is a function of collected surplus of labor. Start participating in a subsistance economy, not as hanger on to the industrial capitalist economy(artist). Participating in a forum like this is a decadant waste of electrcity, and required a lot of destruction of the earth. You could do it if you like, but you seem to like the benfits of society a lot. And you have to admit you consider your self better( so lofty) than the average plebe, practice what YOU preach. If airline travell is destroying life, there is no cost high enough, right? If paint thinner is destroying the world it can't be allowed to exist. ect. Do you want a world with none of these things? or a world where they are rationed by the government. or rationed by the market? Living in a society requires order( even the Native tribes of America, which you for some reason think do not exist anymore, Europoens do tend to have warped views on them which is a different thread), Complex societies require even more order. You seem to want the benefits of complex capitalist society with out any compromises to it, which is childish and spoiled. Ranting about it all while you plan your trip to go check out Chile is not doing anything to help, it is the problem. You times 9 billion

luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:01:07 PM)
If we wanted a war to take oil, we would have invaded Mexico, Canada, or Venezuala. It would have been way easier.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:18:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Well I guess manufacturing a war and invading fuel rich countries is always a possibility. After all when it comes to resources, capitalism very quickly forgets about the rule of law. See ... just gotta get an Anti-American dig in don't you? You think that helps convince anyone, or does it simply help to releases some of the built up frustration and anger you seem to wallow in? I said capitalism, not America. You are getting paranoid.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:23:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 If we wanted a war to take oil, we would have invaded Mexico, Canada, or Venezuala. It would have been way easier. No it wouldn't. You need a pretence at least. Mind you, Bush has been demonizing Chavez in the same way he demonised Saddam. There is no way you could pretend you were threatened by Canada or Mexico, you wouldn't have a friend in the world and even the US is that big.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:25:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Well I guess manufacturing a war and invading fuel rich countries is always a possibility. After all when it comes to resources, capitalism very quickly forgets about the rule of law. See ... just gotta get an Anti-American dig in don't you? You think that helps convince anyone, or does it simply help to releases some of the built up frustration and anger you seem to wallow in? I said capitalism, not America. You are getting paranoid. ahh, no, you are ducking your own words, my friend. What other capitalist power has been accused of "Blood for Oil" in the last few decades? FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:26:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat says, "Well excuse me if I want those that consider themselves so lofty, to practice what they preach." Then quit using manufactured or transported products. Quit flying around the world. Quit being an artist, isn't art sonombulistic crap? Consider that intellectualism itself is a function of collected surplus of labor. Start participating in a subsistance economy, not as hanger on to the industrial capitalist economy(artist). Participating in a forum like this is a decadant waste of electrcity, and required a lot of destruction of the earth. You could do it if you like, but you seem to like the benfits of society a lot. And you have to admit you consider your self better( so lofty) than the average plebe, practice what YOU preach. If airline travell is destroying life, there is no cost high enough, right? If paint thinner is destroying the world it can't be allowed to exist. ect. Do you want a world with none of these things? or a world where they are rationed by the government. or rationed by the market? Living in a society requires order( even the Native tribes of America, which you for some reason think do not exist anymore, Europoens do tend to have warped views on them which is a different thread), Complex societies require even more order. You seem to want the benefits of complex capitalist society with out any compromises to it, which is childish and spoiled. Ranting about it all while you plan your trip to go check out Chile is not doing anything to help, it is the problem. You times 9 billion Your problem is that you seem to think that anything that isn't capitalistic means going back to the year zero. The last thing a capitalist should be telling someone is to use their intellect, if any economic system is intrinsically animalistic and anti-intellectual it is capitalism.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:26:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat says, "Well excuse me if I want those that consider themselves so lofty, to practice what they preach." Then quit using manufactured or transported products. Quit flying around the world. Quit being an artist, isn't art sonombulistic crap? Consider that intellectualism itself is a function of collected surplus of labor. Start participating in a subsistance economy, not as hanger on to the industrial capitalist economy(artist). Participating in a forum like this is a decadant waste of electrcity, and required a lot of destruction of the earth. You could do it if you like, but you seem to like the benfits of society a lot. And you have to admit you consider your self better( so lofty) than the average plebe, practice what YOU preach. If airline travell is destroying life, there is no cost high enough, right? If paint thinner is destroying the world it can't be allowed to exist. ect. Do you want a world with none of these things? or a world where they are rationed by the government. or rationed by the market? Living in a society requires order( even the Native tribes of America, which you for some reason think do not exist anymore, Europoens do tend to have warped views on them which is a different thread), Complex societies require even more order. You seem to want the benefits of complex capitalist society with out any compromises to it, which is childish and spoiled. Ranting about it all while you plan your trip to go check out Chile is not doing anything to help, it is the problem. You times 9 billion [sm=biggrin.gif] Nailed! FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:29:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY ahh, no, you are ducking your own words, my friend. What other capitalist power has been accused of "Blood for Oil" in the last few decades? Did I say the last decade? But if you want me to say it I will. The USA overthrows governments and invades countries to exploit their resources. They are not the only ones but they have done it and do do it.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat says, "Well excuse me if I want those that consider themselves so lofty, to practice what they preach." Then quit using manufactured or transported products. Quit flying around the world. Quit being an artist, isn't art sonombulistic crap? Consider that intellectualism itself is a function of collected surplus of labor. Start participating in a subsistance economy, not as hanger on to the industrial capitalist economy(artist). Participating in a forum like this is a decadant waste of electrcity, and required a lot of destruction of the earth. You could do it if you like, but you seem to like the benfits of society a lot. And you have to admit you consider your self better( so lofty) than the average plebe, practice what YOU preach. If airline travell is destroying life, there is no cost high enough, right? If paint thinner is destroying the world it can't be allowed to exist. ect. Do you want a world with none of these things? or a world where they are rationed by the government. or rationed by the market? Living in a society requires order( even the Native tribes of America, which you for some reason think do not exist anymore, Europoens do tend to have warped views on them which is a different thread), Complex societies require even more order. You seem to want the benefits of complex capitalist society with out any compromises to it, which is childish and spoiled. Ranting about it all while you plan your trip to go check out Chile is not doing anything to help, it is the problem. You times 9 billion [sm=biggrin.gif] Nailed! FirmKY No. He's talking bullshit. But then capitalism is so deep in the psyche of the American right, very little other information gets in.

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:35:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You know ... I've seen a lot of figures like that bandied about. What I haven't seen is anything ... anything at all that backs it up with a hard plan (or even a soft plan) to accomplish it. I'd prefer a detailed analysis, citing exactly how these reductions could be made, and the changes in society, the technologies to be implemented, and the effects on society and economies. Look Firmhand, with capitalists firmly in charge do you really think there would be a hard plan unless it is to defend their wealth? There has been plenty of analysis done, there are endless sites on the internet, endless books in libraries and bookstores. But it's not in the interests of the powers that be to read or beliee them. A capitalist would still be frantically thinking about his profits even if he knew the world was to end at midnight.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:36:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Your problem is that you seem to think that anything that isn't capitalistic means going back to the year zero. The last thing a capitalist should be telling someone is to use their intellect, if any economic system is intrinsically animalistic and anti-intellectual it is capitalism. meat, I really no longer believe that your intellect is what is driving your beliefs. I think your emotions drive you to choose your words. "animalistic"? "anti-intellectual"? Economic systems are, as far as I can think, really neutral as far as morality. It is the structure of society around them that makes moral judgements. Humans are animalistic. People (some) are anti-intellectual. As luckydog has said, and as the report from the World Band points out in my originating post in this thread, the standard of living of the entire planet has risen under capitalism and quasi-capitalistic systems. Life is become easier, more fruitful and more enjoyable for people every year, allowing more time for art, leisure and activities not directly related to just filling your belly another day. The market forces of capitalism grow knowledge, in the fight for better products and services. The additional free time that capitalism allows give time for more education, more research, more artist to fufill there desires to express themselves .... how the hell can you call it "anti-intellectual"? FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:46:23 PM)
I'm a racist or didn't you know. Good bye.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:53:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY You know ... I've seen a lot of figures like that bandied about. What I haven't seen is anything ... anything at all that backs it up with a hard plan (or even a soft plan) to accomplish it. I'd prefer a detailed analysis, citing exactly how these reductions could be made, and the changes in society, the technologies to be implemented, and the effects on society and economies. Look Firmhand, with capitalists firmly in charge do you really think there would be a hard plan unless it is to defend their wealth? meatcleaver, you belief system is remarkably consistent and circular. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver There has been plenty of analysis done, there are endless sites on the internet, endless books in libraries and bookstores. But it's not in the interests of the powers that be to read or beliee them. Well, you are the one who made the claim, and therefore bear the burden of proof. But ... in the interest of continuing the conversation - where did you get your figures? Surely they weren't made up from whole cloth? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver A capitalist would still be frantically thinking about his profits even if he knew the world was to end at midnight. This sounds like you are casting capitalist as the evil demons of your theology. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:57:34 PM)
As Lenin said. A capitalist will sell you the rope you use to hang them with. Not evil, just amoral and in love with mamon to the point of their own detriment.

NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 2:22:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Economic systems are, as far as I can think, really neutral as far as morality. It is the structure of society around them that makes moral judgements. This is absolutely not the case. The purpose of Government is to provide a quality of life for its citizens. The economy is a tool to provide this quality of life i.e. the econcomy is society's tool for well-being and as such is absolutely and completely bound by morality. An issue I have with this thread is the notion that you either accept capitalism in its current form of rampant consumerism or you reject capitalism completely. In actual fact, capitalism has proven itself (to date) to be the best generator of wealth. However, there are capitalist economies outside of the US which do a far better job of providing for the people and the Governments of these countries act like proper Governments i.e they regulate the economy while at the same time promoting enterprise. What we see in the the US and Britain is an extreme form of capitalism where the Government absolves itself of its responsibilities, takes a backseat and allows big business to run the show. Believe it or not we are in the minority and we are the countries in the developed world with huge wealth gaps and serious levels of drug abuse, homelessness, serious crime and child poverty. There is nothing wrong with flying to Chile or enjoying fine whiskey. There are people in other countries such as Sweden who do exactly the same thing. The difference in Sweden is the citizens' taxes funds good quality public services, schools and hospitals for the people whereas our taxes fund invasions and the result is an underclass in our countries.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 2:26:18 PM)
Hmmm, 15 pages and all we know is meat hates capitalism and thinks the US is the most capitalist. And I still don't know what the solution that is being proposed is besides a generic tax on environmental damage which doesn't even get rid of capitalism just taxes it. Is that it or did I miss something. I'm confused [:(]

NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 2:28:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Well I guess manufacturing a war and invading fuel rich countries is always a possibility. After all when it comes to resources, capitalism very quickly forgets about the rule of law. See ... just gotta get an Anti-American dig in don't you? You think that helps convince anyone, or does it simply help to releases some of the built up frustration and anger you seem to wallow in? FirmKY I'm curious, what is anti-American about MC's comment? It's interesting that whenever someone says they do not support invasions fuelled by oil trade they must be denounced as anti-American. Strange and dangerous logic.

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