RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 10:24:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......we are all going to die, so why get so worked up about homicide?
Yup, it's a rhetorical question, but germane to the point. We get riled up about it because the human impact on climate is distorting the cyclical rhythm of natural global warming and cooling. We get further riled up about it when people lie to themselves and others in order to protect short term financial interests.



... and we riled up about it when people who are suppose to be all "scientific" let their personal desires and political goals:

1) get in the way of allowing the continuing search for the complete truth and
2) purpose to use force and coercion to attempt to achieve their goals.

FirmKY



thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 11:59:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......we are all going to die, so why get so worked up about homicide?
Yup, it's a rhetorical question, but germane to the point. We get riled up about it because the human impact on climate is distorting the cyclical rhythm of natural global warming and cooling. We get further riled up about it when people lie to themselves and others in order to protect short term financial interests.



... and we riled up about it when people who are suppose to be all "scientific" let their personal desires and political goals:

1) get in the way of allowing the continuing search for the complete truth and
2) purpose to use force and coercion to attempt to achieve their goals.

FirmKY


FirmhandKY:
It has been my experience that all governments use force and coercion in the attempt to achieve  their goals.
thompson



FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 12:19:31 PM)

thompson,

Absolutely correct.  Government, in the end, is generally based on the use of force.

But why should we encourage them to use it?

FirmKY



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 1:01:06 PM)

It is the right that has the power (regardless of elections), it is the right that isn't doing anything about the pollution that is a result of its economic agenda. I don't get angry because I'm idealistic, I get angry because I want there to be a world here in 100 years times for future generations.

You say you are rationalist and you believe in people having the maximum amount of freedom possible This includes freedom from the left's desire to "force" everyone to "be good" and "do the right thing".  Which gives your mythical idealist freedom from the 'right's' desire to have everyone do the wrong thing which includes destroying human habitat.

Wanting to prevent global warming isn't idealistic, it is realistic. Yes, we can wait until we know all the facts but waiting to know all the facts will be too late according to all the independent scientific wisdom and data. If Britain waited for all the facts, Hitler would have been sitting in London.

I have issues with multi-culturalism myself which is not a left or right issue but a social issue but when people get suspicious of multi-culturalism it is usually because they smell racism beneath it and we seen what can happen when people are demonised. Think Aushwitz.



luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 2:09:12 PM)

In reference to an earlier post...Fundamentalist Muslims do not seek freedom, they seek submission to God.  That is the literal Meaning of "Islam". 

Also, I am very curious and have never recieved a straight answer to this question. ----

Exactly what freedoms do you want, but not have in the West? 



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 2:55:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

In reference to an earlier post...Fundamentalist Muslims do not seek freedom, they seek submission to God.  That is the literal Meaning of "Islam". 

Also, I am very curious and have never recieved a straight answer to this question. ----

Exactly what freedoms do you want, but not have in the West? 


OK They want freedom to seek submission.

It's not necessarily a case of what freedoms I want for myself but freedom from exploitation and subjugation by the west for the poor in the developing world would be a good start. Freedom from fast buck capitalism that apropriates ones time because one is forced to contribute to such things as a military, which has the sole purpose is to support corporations in the west to exploit the developing world.

On a personal note I'd love to have freedom from the advertizing of shitty products, its offensive, ignorant and intrusive. Generally freedom from having my life moulded by corporations.



philosophy -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 4:08:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
... and we riled up about it when people who are suppose to be all "scientific" let their personal desires and political goals:
1) get in the way of allowing the continuing search for the complete truth and
2) purpose to use force and coercion to attempt to achieve their goals.
FirmKY


......well that neatly describes the actions of the Exxon funded 'scientists' and governments who oppose measures to curb greenhouse gases. What it does not describe are people like the Royal Society and meatcleaver or LAM.



NorthernGent -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 4:40:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's not necessarily a case of what freedoms I want for myself but freedom from exploitation and subjugation by the west for the poor in the developing world would be a good start. Freedom from fast buck capitalism that apropriates ones time because one is forced to contribute to such things as a military, which has the sole purpose is to support corporations in the west to exploit the developing world.

On a personal note I'd love to have freedom from the advertizing of shitty products, its offensive, ignorant and intrusive. Generally freedom from having my life moulded by corporations.


MC, I'm with you with on the exploitation issue. No problems here. But where do you think this "one this, one that" bollocks comes from? The queen and the British establishment. What do these people do? Exploit the living daylights out of anything that moves. Nice words on your part but why are you aspiring to a class (of people) who traditionally have rampaged around the world and then spend time denouncing exploitation. Which is it, MC?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 5:36:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
... and we riled up about it when people who are suppose to be all "scientific" let their personal desires and political goals:
1) get in the way of allowing the continuing search for the complete truth and
2) purpose to use force and coercion to attempt to achieve their goals.
FirmKY


......well that neatly describes the actions of the Exxon funded 'scientists' and governments who oppose measures to curb greenhouse gases. What it does not describe are people like the Royal Society and meatcleaver or LAM.


Ahh, so you are telling me, then, that "your side" has all the facts, there is nothing left to know or to learn, that each model of the change in world climate agrees with each other to the "n"th degree, and there is absolutely no possibility that the world won't be uninhibitable by the year 2100 or earlier?

That no additional research should be conducted?  That all the methods of preventing this global catastrophe have been eliminated except for the immediate, almost utter destruction of the economies and standards of living of everyone in the Western, industrialized world (or just the US?)

That people should be made by the threat of the force, and on threat of the expropriation of their vehicles and other property, immediately to reduce and/or eliminate their use of energy (no heating oil in the winter?)

How about eating meat?  I've seen studies that the methane given off by herd animals kept for food generate a substantial amount of additional greenhouse gases.  Let's immediately legislate that everyone should become vegetarians, too!  Let's leave no stone unturned!  We can whip this thing!

Of course ... all the cattle ranchers will go bankrupt ... the oil companies likely as well ... the overall economy may well crash to something worse than anything ever seen in the Great Depression ... thousands, hundreds of thousands may die from exposure ....food supplies might be scarce for a while ... starvation of millions is not out of the question, even in the US ... (of course, we could just stop shipping any food anywhere else in the world, and let everyone else starve to death) ...

I suspect riots at least ... war ... disease ... revolution ....  huh?  Revolution?

Ahhh .. now I understand!  [:D]

That'll show them greedy capitalists!

FirmKY



thompsonx -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 6:05:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
... and we riled up about it when people who are suppose to be all "scientific" let their personal desires and political goals:
1) get in the way of allowing the continuing search for the complete truth and
2) purpose to use force and coercion to attempt to achieve their goals.
FirmKY


......well that neatly describes the actions of the Exxon funded 'scientists' and governments who oppose measures to curb greenhouse gases. What it does not describe are people like the Royal Society and meatcleaver or LAM.


Ahh, so you are telling me, then, that "your side" has all the facts, there is nothing left to know or to learn, that each model of the change in world climate agrees with each other to the "n"th degree, and there is absolutely no possibility that the world won't be uninhibitable by the year 2100 or earlier?

That no additional research should be conducted?  That all the methods of preventing this global catastrophe have been eliminated except for the immediate, almost utter destruction of the economies and standards of living of everyone in the Western, industrialized world (or just the US?)

That people should be made by the threat of the force, and on threat of the expropriation of their vehicles and other property, immediately to reduce and/or eliminate their use of energy (no heating oil in the winter?)

How about eating meat?  I've seen studies that the methane given off by herd animals kept for food generate a substantial amount of additional greenhouse gases.  Let's immediately legislate that everyone should become vegetarians, too!  Let's leave no stone unturned!  We can whip this thing!

Of course ... all the cattle ranchers will go bankrupt ... the oil companies likely as well ... the overall economy may well crash to something worse than anything ever seen in the Great Depression ... thousands, hundreds of thousands may die from exposure ....food supplies might be scarce for a while ... starvation of millions is not out of the question, even in the US ... (of course, we could just stop shipping any food anywhere else in the world, and let everyone else starve to death) ...

I suspect riots at least ... war ... disease ... revolution ....  huh?  Revolution?

Ahhh .. now I understand!  [:D]

That'll show them greedy capitalists!

FirmKY


FirmhandKY"
ROFLMAO
Sometimes I think you only open your mouth to change feet.
thompson



FirmhandKY -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 6:11:54 PM)

My treasure gives great "foot", thompson.  No need for self-pedi-oral stimulation here!  [:D]



Marc2b -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 8:32:50 PM)

Philosophy said:

quote:

...so why get worked up about homicide?


Because homicide is a proven killer (it kills every single time). Besides, on a macro social level we don’t get worked up about homicide. We have laws and a justice system to deal with it.

quote:

We get riled up about it because the human impact on climate is distorting the cyclical rhythm of natural global warming and cooling. We get further riled up about it when people lie to themselves and others in order to protect short term financial interests.


Perhaps "riled up" was the wrong term to use since it is perfectly natural to get riled up about things that worry or offend us. The question we have to ask ourselves is: how do we proceed after we get riled up? Do we calm ourselves down and react in a calm, rational and civil manner? Or do we give in to our agitation, reacting with anger and hatred to those who have caused us to be riled up?

FirmhandKY said:

quote:

I'm a rational anarchist.


Rational anarchist. I like that.

quote:

I am commonly painted as having all kinds of beliefs that I don't by this stereotyping. And sometimes, the beliefs that are attributed to me are correct, but for all the wrong reasons.


Me too. On other threads I have been "accused" of being a liberal by some and a conservative by others (and with invective that makes Lordandmaster look like a puppy dog). These accusations and invective are, I believe, the result of the combination of two things: the ideological filter, and stereotyping. The ideological filter causes people to gloss over and dismiss that which does not challenge the ideology and to focus on that which challenges it. This results in anger and hatred which lead to the stereotyping.

"Oh look. This guy thinks volcanos put more CO2 into the atmosphere than people, he must be an idiot which probably means he is a conservative. If he is a conservative then he must be a greedy capitalist who wants to pollute the Earth, hates poor people and minorities, and probably likes to kick pregnant women in the stomach."

Thompsonx said:

quote:

It has been my experience that all governments use force and coercion in the attempt to achieve their goals.


Indeed. In fact, force and coercion had been the modus operandi of the human race since the beginning. It hasn’t worked yet so I wonder why some people think we can use force and coercion to break us out of this cycle. The very idea is self defeating. The path to a better world begins not with massive social schemes but with the individual. Each of us must realize that is starts with "me." Someone once said (I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that the best way to fight poverty is to not be poor yourself. This concept can be applied to all sorts of maladies. The best way to fight hatred is to not hate yourself. The best way to fight pollution is to not pollute yourself. And so on.

Meatcleaver said:

quote:

I get angry because I want there to be a world here in 100 years times for future generations.


Take a deep breath and relax. There will be. Baring some calamity like a massive asteroid striking the Earth, the world will still be here. The question is not wether or not the world will still be here, but what kind of world we will have?
Some Concluding Thoughts
The following is subject to change without notice.
 
Is the climate undergoing a warming trend? Yes.

Is this due to human activity? At least partially. Carbon emissions have been increasing and this is due at least in part to human activity. However, it may also be due in part to a natural warming trend that began with the end of the Little Ice Age in the mid-1800's.

Is the Earth going to rapidly heat up to the point that we are all going to bake to death? Yes. When the Sun goes nova some five billion years from now. In the meantime, get a grip people.


So how much is the Earth going to heat up in the coming years? Nobody knows, predictions based upon computer models vary by as much as 400%.

Is the science behind global warming being manipulated? Yes, by both the believers and the nay-sayers.

Is fear of global warming being used to advance political/social agendas? Yes, usually of the collectivist variety.

Can any good come of this? No. Wether you want to call it Socialism, Marxism, Communism, etc., history has shown that collectivism is a dismal failure. Collectivism on a large scale requires totalitarianism to "work."

Can laissez faire capitalism solve the problem? Yeah, right.

So how do we solve the problem? First by not looking at the situation as a problem to be solved (most "solutions" to "problems" of the sociological variety result in more problems) but rather as a challenge to be met: how can we clean up our environment?.

So how can we clean up our environment? By prosecuting deliberate polluters who violate pollution laws, but more so by encouraging people and corporations to behave in an environmentally beneficial manner with incentives and rewards (i.e. tax breaks, funding for alternative energy research, etc). Coercion should never be used. It never works in the long term, and is immoral. Also important is dialogue. People need to be persuaded to behave in a more environmentally beneficial manner. Respect and civility are necessities in dialogue. Nobody is persuaded by invective and arrogance.

Well, I’m out of here for a few days. Got some last minute Christmas shopping to do on Saturday and on Sunday and Monday I’ll be doing the Christmas thing with family. In the spirit of the season I would like to wish everyone (and I do mean everyone) a very merry Christmas.

Marc2b



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 10:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ahh, so you are telling me, then, that "your side" has all the facts, there is nothing left to know or to learn, that each model of the change in world climate agrees with each other to the "n"th degree, and there is absolutely no possibility that the world won't be uninhibitable by the year 2100 or earlier?

That no additional research should be conducted?  That all the methods of preventing this global catastrophe have been eliminated except for the immediate, almost utter destruction of the economies and standards of living of everyone in the Western, industrialized world (or just the US?)



Europe could reduce its energy consumption by 50% by the year 2050 without the collapse of civilisation as we know it. America, starting form a higher energy use could reduce its energy by 70% by the same year. This can all be done by cutting out waste and using technology we already have. The only thing that is lacking is the political will because so many people have their head in the sand and refuse to modify their proliferate life styles. Energy is going to get more and more expensive anyway with growing demand and diminishing resources so global warming or not, conservation makes sense even if you apply purely materialist concerns.

Well I guess manufacturing a war and invading fuel rich countries is always a possibility. After all when it comes to resources, capitalism very quickly forgets about the rule of law.



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 10:33:32 PM)

You sound like the captain on the Titanic.



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/22/2006 10:41:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

But where do you think this "one this, one that" bollocks comes from? The queen and the British establishment. What do these people do? Exploit the living daylights out of anything that moves. Nice words on your part but why are you aspiring to a class (of people) who traditionally have rampaged around the world and then spend time denouncing exploitation. Which is it, MC?


Education dear boy, education.[8|]

It's how I was taught to write at school, it's difficult to change.



luckydog1 -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 12:10:17 AM)

Thanks for the answer Meat.  I disgree with you on the Macro level.  I think stopping Hitler shows that Armies do more than rampage for Corparations and profit.  And it was the USA pumping Bullets and Food to the Soviets and England.   I would also say that if it were not for the Monroe Doctrine(under which a lot of attrocious violence was committed) Latin America would look a lot like Africa, with rampaging disease, war, and genocide. 
Back in the West.  All of those issues seem to be you wanting the freedom to impose on others, which goes along with your idea of Islamic radicals wanting Freedom to commit violent Jihad.  The KKK wanted the Freedom to impose an ethnic/religous dictatorship also, but I am sure we both agree that that the KKK are NOT freedom fighters.  Who would decide what advertising is shitty?  Would there also be a censor for art?  For literature?  For song?  For Ideas?( though that exists in some of Europe)Do you intend to not use products from the Corparations?  Services and goods like air travel, advanced health care, intelectualism, and art galleries (if you use them your life will be molded by them) require a complex society that produces surpluses.  If everyone only worked to feed them selves, everyone would have to produce food all the time, there would be no specialisation.  Forcing you to pay taxes does more than just support the millitary, it also supports schools, hospitals, health care, old age pensions,ect.  In my opinion Capitalism produces the most surplus, allowing the existance of higher culture.  I see the Market as a goose that lays eggs of Gold, but we have to make sure the goose doesn't shit in the cistern, drink poison, or bite the kids.  The biggest problem is that people are not educated consumers, the market gives us what we want.  Not what we say we want, but what we actually choose....This leads to a discussion of whether freedom actually works(can people handle it), and if not....then what?   Would  that mean the old Popes were right to kill the early scientists?  
I want to give KUDOS to Thomsonx, You have a lot more of the Plans I want for my home/existance, already active.



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 1:10:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Back in the West.  All of those issues seem to be you wanting the freedom to impose on others, which goes along with your idea of Islamic radicals wanting Freedom to commit violent Jihad.  The KKK wanted the Freedom to impose an ethnic/religous dictatorship also, but I am sure we both agree that that the KKK are NOT freedom fighters.  Who would decide what advertising is shitty?  Would there also be a censor for art?  For literature?  For song?  For Ideas?( though that exists in some of Europe)Do you intend to not use products from the Corparations?  Services and goods like air travel, advanced health care, intelectualism, and art galleries (if you use them your life will be molded by them) require a complex society that produces surpluses.  If everyone only worked to feed them selves, everyone would have to produce food all the time, there would be no specialisation.  Forcing you to pay taxes does more than just support the millitary, it also supports schools, hospitals, health care, old age pensions,ect.  In my opinion Capitalism produces the most surplus, allowing the existance of higher culture.  I see the Market as a goose that lays eggs of Gold, but we have to make sure the goose doesn't shit in the cistern, drink poison, or bite the kids.  The biggest problem is that people are not educated consumers, the market gives us what we want.  Not what we say we want, but what we actually choose....This leads to a discussion of whether freedom actually works(can people handle it), and if not....then what?   Would  that mean the old Popes were right to kill the early scientists?  
I want to give KUDOS to Thomsonx, You have a lot more of the Plans I want for my home/existance, already active.


Radical Islamists probably wouldn't exist and wouldn't be trying to export jihad if the west hadn't and didn't consistantly interfer in middle east countries. The west created the terrorists in the first place and now we rile against them and used them as a pretext for a war. It's an old western tactic of justifying subjugation of people and the exploitation of their resources.

Not allowing manufacturers to buy space on TV or magazines or placements in films or whatever is not censorship. Cigarettes aren't allowed advertisement space and our civilisation hasn't come crashing down, why not everything else? If I need to know about a new product, let the store where one would expect to find that sort of product have info on it. Very few products are of intrisic value to a healthy fullfilling life. In fact the EU are discussing restricting placement adds in films at the moment because of its destructive nature on the art form so banning advertisments does not mean censoring art. Unless you consider an acrtor holding up a can of coke to the camera in a film drama detrimental to the plot.

One should have freedom, even if it is freedom to consume rubbish or pollute but the full price should be charged for the privilege of polluting. Capitalism uses the environment as a free asset as though it has no responsibility to nothing but its profits. The planet's assets don't belong to capitalists! They belong to everyone and we keep it in trust for future generations. That is the problem with capitalism. Profits come before the planet and future generations and all to make a profit from much that is for the most part is junk.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 4:05:42 AM)

Meatcleaver is banging on as usual about the wicked West exploiting the implied but not stated potentially perfect underdeveloped countries. He fails to mention that  such "exploitation" is frequently carried out with the connivance of viscious totalitarian regimes. In fact he will probably blame the West for the existence of those regimes. What about many African states since their  independance MC ?

He also fails to mention the high level of ingenuity and expertise required to venture forth and show the colonials what is possible. For example the development of ships, from Clippers to Steam driven to Super tankers to transport resources, say Oil from the intellectually barren areas of the Middle East where it is buried.

Clearly as I said before unfettered capitalism causes problems and some control is required, based on the rule of Law underpinned by the threat of force. I agree there is a bit of a problem when the lawmaking is controlled by the capitalists !

Although problems of exploitation exist, wherever it has been tried capitalism has brought major benefits to many. Your correct approach MC is to focus on the downside of capitalism and how it may be rectified, not to condemn it entirely.



meatcleaver -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 4:42:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Meatcleaver is banging on as usual about the wicked West exploiting the implied but not stated potentially perfect underdeveloped countries. He fails to mention that  such "exploitation" is frequently carried out with the connivance of viscious totalitarian regimes. In fact he will probably blame the West for the existence of those regimes. What about many African states since their  independance MC ?



Theft is a crime, the buying and trading of stolen goods is also a crime. At least for us riff-raff without any power. While African leaders have failed their people, I'm not African and the west commits crimes in my name while spouting its propaganda, that it believes in 'law' and 'civilisation'. Well excuse me if I want those that consider themselves so lofty, to practice what they preach.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. (12/23/2006 8:10:14 AM)

I think it is "highly likely" MC that you are confusing what is said for public consumption and what is really believed.
In other words its political, be it either of the Left or Right.

The Right's position is usually based on pragmatism with a large dose of self interest, the PC Left's is a mish mash of Utopian idealism and can be seen to make things worse when ever it is tried.

My favorite example and indeed the one that caused me, about 30 years ago, to wake up to the failings of Left wing ideology is
LAW and ORDER !!!!
Economic control from the centre is another example. British viewers will know that when the last vestige of our volume car manufacturing was closed down a venture capitalist offered to raise money to take over the sports car sector of the business. Needless to say the trendy Libs pilloried him from pillar to post and fed a big dollop of public money into the busines to try to save jobs.
Result....plant sold off to China  including I think the sports car section. Just had a doubt as I write this. The plant was definately sold to China.



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