quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

losttreasure
Our government is made up of citizens, voted in by citizens, and charged with representing the citizens interests.

Perhaps another aspect of unrestrained capitalism comes in at this point in that it seamed to me in the recent US elections an adequate supply of money from companies and interest groups was as important and possibly more important than "the citizens" during the election.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Without being too contradictory I don't think this is the difference. I don't expect the Government to provide for me because I can find my own way in life. I have never relied on social welfare and never will do but that is largely because I was lucky enough to have two parents who instilled in me a work ethic and an amount of self-esteem that means I can cope with what life throws at me. Others may not be so lucky. There is a general under-estimation of how much we are shaped by our environment. There are always exceptions to a rule but most people from a difficult background struggle to move beyond there background. From what I can see we differ because I believe it is civilised to break cycle of underachievement by providing the opportunities to allow people to thrive i.e. the opportunities that people in Britain and the US are denied. My politics is based around the sort of country I want to live in - do I want to live in an "I'm alright Jack" culture? I couldn't think of anything worse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

So what is going wrong then because the world saw New Orleans laid bare and we all know the levels of drug abuse and serious crime in the US? Happiness? isn't the US the country with the highest rate of anti-depressant use in the developed world? If this board is a representative sample of the US then there are a lot of unhappy people in your country. Something is going badly wrong. Also, I'm struggling to understand the reality of liberty in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong but regardless of how you vote in the next election you will get pretty much the same Government and this means you are disenfranchised - this is not democracy or liberty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

This applies to every country in the world. The question is: which citizens? Largely white Middle-Class America or not?

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ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

It struck me that to be in the running, i.e. to have an opportunity to be elected required that you have substantial finance which was predominantly from companies and pressure groups and that for many politicians they had recevied this finance for many years from the same companies and financial backers.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There is nothing wrong with flying to Chile or enjoying fine whiskey.

Not typically, no.  But I think what was being pointed out is that meatcleaver is being hypocritical.  With his own profile stating, "I dislike luxury and waste" but in the same vein making it clear that he values his expensive cigars and fine whiskey above any woman, travels regularly, and is an art consumer, he appears to have contradictory ideologies.

Not exactly inspiring to have someone like that try to tell me that my excesses are wrong.

Not hypocritical. I have said more than once, people should have to pay the full price of what they consume which means the cost of dealing with the pollution their activities cause. If that means I can no longer afford some or all of the luxuries I have grown accustomed to, then so be it.

What difference would me wearing a hair shirt make? Who would it impress? However, other than my little vices I live modestly and vote and campaign for what I believe in.

quote:

sinergy

meatcleaver, 

You miss the more relevant aspect of her post.

She attacked the messenger.

Not the message.

Jesus and Buddha both shacked up with prostitutes.  Does this mean their message was wrong?  No.  Only that they, like everybody else, have human strivings and desires.

People who attack the messenger for a message seem to be poster children for the definition of "ignorance."

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

sinergy

meatcleaver, 

You miss the more relevant aspect of her post.

She attacked the messenger.

Not the message.

Jesus and Buddha both shacked up with prostitutes.  Does this mean their message was wrong?  No.  Only that they, like everybody else, have human strivings and desires.

People who attack the messenger for a message seem to be poster children for the definition of "ignorance."

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

It is unfortunate that people feel they have to defend living a certain way that they were born into living because it conflicts with what they know is the best thing.

For example I dislike the economy built on fossil fuels for many reasons, yet I eat food shipped with fossils, I use fossils to get around, my lifestyle is related inextricably to them. By the flawed logic that you pointed out, no one should state how things could be made better in the system by improving it even though they live within the system. By that logic no progress could ever be made

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I was not stating people should not make a living Daddy, I was pointing out that stating that there maybe better ways of doing things does not make me a hypocrite because my life is tied to fossils. I was stating that I did not find meatcleaver's stance hypocritical.

I was stating that calling people a hypocrite because they offer a critique of the world they live in and attacking their values and views hinders progress and the debate that leads to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

meatcleaver, 

You miss the more relevant aspect of her post.

She attacked the messenger.

Not the message.

Jesus and Buddha both shacked up with prostitutes.  Does this mean their message was wrong?  No.  Only that they, like everybody else, have human strivings and desires.

People who attack the messenger for a message seem to be poster children for the definition of "ignorance."

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

By the flawed logic that you pointed out, no one should state how things could be made better in the system by improving it even though they live within the system. By that logic no progress could ever be made

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure


I'm not entirely certain what you're point is.  First of all, I just identified why I thought someone else implied that drinking fine whiskey and flying to Chile might be wrong in this context.  Though I might personally consider Meatcleaver's adamant proclamation that he will cling to his vices until forced to give them up to be a bit pretentious, I didn't call him a hypocrite. 

I also see no reason to attack the message that we all need to take responsibility for our environment... I don't disagree with it.  What I do have a problem with is the idea that capitalism is bad and that we can't acheive environmental balance under a capitalistic system.

Edited for clarity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure


I don't disagree that it is admirable to provide opportunities that allow people to thrive.  That's really what our country is all about.  This is called, "the land of opportunity" after all.  The real question becomes one of where the government leaves off and personal responsibility begins. 

Correct, it is called that but in reality? In practice it is the land where some have far more opportunities than others. Just like Britain. If there was anything like equal opportunity you would have a roughly equal split of people from all backgrounds making up your Government and top universities. All Governments pull this stunt in order to foster nationalism and misplaced patriotism in order to gather people behind a banner when the need arises i.e. cold wars, invasions etc. Britain is known as "the land of hope and glory". Quite laughable for some sections of our society. I'm sure the French have a similar term to herd their people too. Britain and the US is all hope and opportunity providing you're from a certain background.

It's a difficult question, I'll admit.  But, I will say that I don't know one single person here who doesn't have opportunities to improve their life made available to them by our government.  Whether they take those opportunities and what they make of them is out of the government's hands. 

Please see above.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

So what is going wrong then because the world saw New Orleans laid bare and we all know the levels of drug abuse and serious crime in the US? Happiness? isn't the US the country with the highest rate of anti-depressant use in the developed world? If this board is a representative sample of the US then there are a lot of unhappy people in your country. Something is going badly wrong. Also, I'm struggling to understand the reality of liberty in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong but regardless of how you vote in the next election you will get pretty much the same Government and this means you are disenfranchised - this is not democracy or liberty.

*sighs*  I'm going to hazard a guess that you've never been to the US, or never spent any time here.  If you're relying on news reports, then what you're getting is going to be mostly bad news. 

I have a few friends who live in London and the surrounding area.  Before we met, they didn't think much of Americans.  Actually, they had a very skewed opinion based on tourists, exports from our television and movies, and the news.  Their views have broadened a bit since then.

losttreasure, when I first joined this board I put up countless links from respected bodies comparing crime levels, child poverty, drug abuse etc in varying nations. It is not relying on bad news, it is reality. There are a lot more to peoples' thought processes than relying on the television.
 
Excuse the bluntness of the following but it has to be said that it is a weak point of discussion to imply that I'm biased because somehow I'm anti-American. The US does some things very well and in other areas not so well. More importantly, there are facts being presented in these threads that point to the fact that something is going badly wrong in your country.
 
For my money, the key one is you have no choice. You will get the same type of Government regardless of who you vote for at the next election. This is effectively being disenfranchised. There is no democracy or liberty. At this juncture in your history you get the Goverment you are given rather than the other way around - just like Britain.

I won't say that there aren't problems with crime or drugs.  But I will tell you that I've lived 44 years here without ever being robbed, mugged, assaulted or the victim of any other form of violent or nonviolent crime.  I can only think of maybe one or two people that I know who have. 

No offence intended here losttreasure but the above point is an anecdote and irrelavent to the discussion on US society.

Of course there are some problems with how distasters are handled and in the effectiveness of government in that respect.  It's one of the reasons that I am very leery about giving the government any more responsibility over my life.

I honestly don't know anything about the rate of anti-depressant use... though it might be affected by our medical system not being government controlled.

I won't claim that there is any kind of utopia here in the US... but I do think we have it pretty good.  Could it be better?  Sure, but for the most part, I'm happy.

This is probably where we have a real difference of opinion. You seem to be saying as long as you're ok then life's grand. In my opinion, we're pack animals and as such we feed off other peoples' happiness. To be truly happy we need the people around us to be happy. Seeing destruction and exploitation in our countries and around the world is not healthy for our personal well-being.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

This applies to every country in the world. The question is: which citizens? Largely white Middle-Class America or not?

The citizens who accept responsibility... by voting or running for office.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying in the above and at the risk of repeating myself I will say again that from where I'm standing the US is a country ran by and large by white middle class Americans for white middle class Americans (I appreciate that we may have a different interpretation of what constitututes class so mine can be provided if my point is unclear).