quote:


i've picked out these three questions because i believe... etc.

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

...Maybe it was the way I write but I see nothing pretentious in those aspirations. I suppose the reason you find it all a little pretentious is because I put cigars and whiskey before women. With my experience, you might too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Correct, it is called that but in reality? In practice it is the land where some have far more opportunities than others. Just like Britain. If there was anything like equal opportunity you would have a roughly equal split of people from all backgrounds making up your Government and top universities. All Governments pull this stunt in order to foster nationalism and misplaced patriotism in order to gather people behind a banner when the need arises i.e. cold wars, invasions etc. Britain is known as "the land of hope and glory". Quite laughable for some sections of our society. I'm sure the French have a similar term to herd their people too. Britain and the US is all hope and opportunity providing you're from a certain background.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

losttreasure, when I first joined this board I put up countless links from respected bodies comparing crime levels, child poverty, drug abuse etc in varying nations. It is not relying on bad news, it is reality. There are a lot more to peoples' thought processes than relying on the television.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Excuse the bluntness of the following but it has to be said that it is a weak point of discussion to imply that I'm biased because somehow I'm anti-American. The US does some things very well and in other areas not so well. More importantly, there are facts being presented in these threads that point to the fact that something is going badly wrong in your country.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For my money, the key one is you have no choice. You will get the same type of Government regardless of who you vote for at the next election. This is effectively being disenfranchised. There is no democracy or liberty. At this juncture in your history you get the Goverment you are given rather than the other way around - just like Britain.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

No offence intended here losttreasure but the above point is an anecdote and irrelavent to the discussion on US society.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

This is probably where we have a real difference of opinion. You seem to be saying as long as you're ok then life's grand. In my opinion, we're pack animals and as such we feed off other peoples' happiness. To be truly happy we need the people around us to be happy. Seeing destruction and exploitation in our countries and around the world is not healthy for our personal well-being.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

I'm not quite sure what you're saying in the above and at the risk of repeating myself I will say again that from where I'm standing the US is a country ran by and large by white middle class Americans for white middle class Americans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

A final point worth mentioning, I noticed you mentioned an ideogical difference and I took from that you were comparing Americans and British.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Capitalists love to bend the laws to suit their goals.  Unfortunately when they achieve it they are no longer capitalists, they are now fascists.  (the union of government and corporation) {unfettered in the us since 1917}

Its the crimnal human factors that kill most isms and typically not the ism in itself.

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure

There will never exist a true democracy unless each American takes responsibility and actively participates in every issue addressed by the government.  

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

When people associated with the Neo Conservative agenda speak of spreadng "democracy" and "freedom", what they really mean is that people vote with their money and markets are free... not people voting and freedom for people...

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I do understand that, but my point was more along the lines of, if you are looking for bad news, that is what you are going to find.  How about links from respected bodies comparing standards of living... education levels, income per capita, longevity, employment opportunities, available medical care, cultural resources... I don't think the picture is as bleak when you look at both the bad and the good.

In some respects this is a fair point. The US is a nation of unparalleled wealth. The problem is you're a nation of an unparalleled wealth gap too (in the developed world). Thus, if you're from a certain background life must be materially very rewarding. The above measures you mention, do these apply to the poorer socio-economic groups in the US? I doubt these measures are of much comfort. I certainly take your point though that the US has a middle-class that other nations do not come close to and for the majority life must be materially grand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Excuse the bluntness of the following but it has to be said that it is a weak point of discussion to imply that I'm biased because somehow I'm anti-American. The US does some things very well and in other areas not so well. More importantly, there are facts being presented in these threads that point to the fact that something is going badly wrong in your country.

I'm not suggesting that you are biased or anti-American, but merely that you may have had limited access to information with which to formulate your opinions.  It's not a strong point of discussion, but a valid one nonetheless.

I will agree that there are problems in the US that indeed need to be addressed.  How to go about addressing them is where the contention exists.

You're right, I'm far from the authority on the US. I do know something about US foreign policy and a few other things already mentioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For my money, the key one is you have no choice. You will get the same type of Government regardless of who you vote for at the next election. This is effectively being disenfranchised. There is no democracy or liberty. At this juncture in your history you get the Goverment you are given rather than the other way around - just like Britain.

I understand the point you are trying to make, and I agree it seems a problem. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

No offence intended here losttreasure but the above point is an anecdote and irrelavent to the discussion on US society.

Obviously as I'm a part of US society and have 44 years of experience living in it, I did feel it was relevant enough to mention.

Without pursuing this one more than it needs to be I am/was saying that this is personal to your particular social environment as opposed to US society in general.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

This is probably where we have a real difference of opinion. You seem to be saying as long as you're ok then life's grand. In my opinion, we're pack animals and as such we feed off other peoples' happiness. To be truly happy we need the people around us to be happy. Seeing destruction and exploitation in our countries and around the world is not healthy for our personal well-being.

What I'm saying is that the people around me seem to be relatively happy, so I'm relatively happy.  I don't see the world through rose-colored glasses or go about with blinders on, but I try to be realistic about human nature and what is possible.  Makes for much fewer ulcers that way.

Fair enough again although I would say that there is so much room for improvement and this is not a statement made from seeing the world in rose-tinted glasses. There is a lot of money sloshing around that is being shared among people who already have more money than they could ever know what to do with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

I'm not quite sure what you're saying in the above and at the risk of repeating myself I will say again that from where I'm standing the US is a country ran by and large by white middle class Americans for white middle class Americans.

I'm not quite sure how to answer you except to point you to my first response above.  There will never exist a true democracy unless each American takes responsibility and actively participates in every issue addressed by the government.  I don't see that happening.

There's a big problem here because in Britain we have 3 political parties who you couldn't slide a piece of paper between - their policies are that similar. They know this and as a result spend their time demonising the other two rather than talking up their own policies. Apathy has set in, people no longer hold any sort of faith in politicians. The two party system in your country, it's going to take a lot to turn it around just as it will do here. That lot is the economy, people are apathetic while everything is rosy in the garden but when there is a downturn in the economy people will want quick answers and suddenly become interested again. My fear for Britain is that a far-right party will fill the void vacated by left-wing politicians who have traditionally represented the working man.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

A final point worth mentioning, I noticed you mentioned an ideogical difference and I took from that you were comparing Americans and British.

Not at all... it has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with a difference in beliefs and ideas on the political and social needs of our world. 

Fair enough, my mistake.

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Sinergy

I think it is bait and switch.

Call capitalist agendae by the name democracy and people will jump on the old "Democracy-good" bandwagon, wave their flags around, and attempt to pillory anybody who stands there going "Gee, Capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system.  Isnt that like comparing apples and meerkats?"

But enough people in this country dont bother to learn the difference and elect one from their confederacy of dunces to be King.

Just me, could be wrong, but Merry PoliticallyCorrectHolidyGreeting anyway.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Sinergy

I think it is bait and switch.

Call capitalist agendae by the name democracy and people will jump on the old "Democracy-good" bandwagon, wave their flags around, and attempt to pillory anybody who stands there going "Gee, Capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system.  Isnt that like comparing apples and meerkats?"

But enough people in this country dont bother to learn the difference and elect one from their confederacy of dunces to be King.

Just me, could be wrong, but Merry PoliticallyCorrectHolidyGreeting anyway.

Sinergy

I cringe when I hear our leaders say things such as "We are going to give the Iraqis democracy". I am of the opinion that one has to possess something in order to give it to someone else, since we do not have a democracy I am at a loss to understand how we can give it to others.

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure

There will never exist a true democracy unless each American takes responsibility and actively participates in every issue addressed by the government.  

Actually, there will never be a true democracy until the government of the United States (which is a Representative Republic, not a Democracy) is overthrown and all citizens are provided with the means to vote on each and every issue to come up for a vote.  This, then, would be a "Democracy." 

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I imagine Monkeyboy was sleeping or stoned during his high school history classes because he refers to the US as a democracy all the time.

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Call me an idealist, but it strikes me that the head of a government should have some understanding of what kind of government he is in charge of.

I am not advocating overthrow of the United States, but I wish more people would learn what kind of government the United States actually has before talking about its positive and negative aspects.

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ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

NG

The elections over here go down to a much more local and specialised level than in the UK. Whilst in the UK there are the parliament, "regional / local country" , country / district, town , parish, sets of elections, generally other than at a very local level the UK voters vote for a party.  

Here the personality of the local candidate is more important and also local officials are elected for set terms rather being an appointed job, e.g local sherrif, the local prosecuter,  etc. There are local committees that control the Environmnetal regulaltors and the people on the committees seem to be elected or lnked to elections. This is seen by many americans as giving local accountability and democracy. It also allows a lot more local pressure by rich families and companies to have the laws or enforcement of the laws "modified" around their wishes within certain local areas, and allows greater politcal direction of what in the UK would be considered to be "independent" decision making. 

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
...Surely party politics is what counts i.e a party manifesto in black and white that can be analysed as opposed to some bloke who is hired because he has a knack of saying the right thing at the right time to the right people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
...Surely party politics is what counts i.e a party manifesto in black and white that can be analysed as opposed to some bloke who is hired because he has a knack of saying the right thing at the right time to the right people.

A party manifesto cannot represent all of us and no written credo is universally applicable.  An individual who possesses the charisma to introduce those beliefs and persuasively promote them is what counts.  We seek a representative for ourselves who will use wisdom to discern those aspects of our beliefs that can reasonably be put forth and realistically attained.

Edited for clarity.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Sinergy

I think it is bait and switch.

Call capitalist agendae by the name democracy and people will jump on the old "Democracy-good" bandwagon, wave their flags around, and attempt to pillory anybody who stands there going "Gee, Capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system.  Isnt that like comparing apples and meerkats?"

But enough people in this country dont bother to learn the difference and elect one from their confederacy of dunces to be King.

Just me, could be wrong, but Merry PoliticallyCorrectHolidyGreeting anyway.

Sinergy

I cringe when I hear our leaders say things such as "We are going to give the Iraqis democracy". I am of the opinion that one has to possess something in order to give it to someone else, since we do not have a democracy I am at a loss to understand how we can give it to others.

Jay Leno said it best:  "why bother writing a constitution for the iraquies, just give them ours, we dont need it anymore"!

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ORIGINAL: losttreasure
It would seem he's in good company.

The CIA provides the following definitions of types of government in its World Factbook:

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I do understand that, but my point was more along the lines of, if you are looking for bad news, that is what you are going to find.  How about links from respected bodies comparing standards of living... education levels, income per capita, longevity, employment opportunities, available medical care, cultural resources... I don't think the picture is as bleak when you look at both the bad and the good.

In some respects this is a fair point. The US is a nation of unparalleled wealth. The problem is you're a nation of an unparalleled wealth gap too (in the developed world). Thus, if you're from a certain background life must be materially very rewarding. The above measures you mention, do these apply to the poorer socio-economic groups in the US? I doubt these measures are of much comfort. I certainly take your point though that the US has a middle-class that other nations do not come close to and for the majority life must be materially grand.

quote:

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Without pursuing this one more than it needs to be I am/was saying that this is personal to your particular social environment as opposed to US society in general.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

There's a big problem here because in Britain we have 3 political parties who you couldn't slide a piece of paper between - their policies are that similar. They know this and as a result spend their time demonising the other two rather than talking up their own policies. Apathy has set in, people no longer hold any sort of faith in politicians. The two party system in your country, it's going to take a lot to turn it around just as it will do here. That lot is the economy, people are apathetic while everything is rosy in the garden but when there is a downturn in the economy people will want quick answers and suddenly become interested again. My fear for Britain is that a far-right party will fill the void vacated by left-wing politicians who have traditionally represented the working man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I imagine Monkeyboy was sleeping or stoned during his high school history classes because he refers to the US as a democracy all the time.

It would seem he's in good company.

The CIA provides the following definitions of types of government in its World Factbook:

Democracy - a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but which is usually exercised indirectly through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed.

Republic - a representative democracy in which the people's elected deputies (representatives), not the people themselves, vote on legislation.

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

An interesting statistic from my college years was a professor who pointed out that 50% of the planet-wide combined (from all countries) Gross National Product is used to develop military and police structures to enforce order.  Additionally, the majority of this money is actually spent by governments to enforce order on their own citizens, as opposed to keeping us safe from the invading hordes of wherever.

I love my country, but I fear my government.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Dictionary.com gives these definitions.

1.government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

I guess this is where the CIA got their definitions. 

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President George W. Bush’s nomination of Paul Wolfowitz to lead the World Bank is an inspired choice. It suggests that the president’s commitment to spreading democracy is not merely rhetorical. It shows also that he recognizes that democracy involves more than the ballot box. Institutional reforms that encourage development of markets, the rule of law, protection of human and property rights, and openness to trade--all these sustain democracy by giving people opportunity, hope, and higher living standards. http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.22173/pub_detail.asp