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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:46:54 PM   
ScienceBoy


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Joined: 11/21/2006
From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It would not hurt my feelings if they made pot legal. Nope, not at all.


I'd be hurt. The illegality of dope is just about the only rebelious pleasure I have left!

The whole drug thing is the usual case of people being really shite at risk assessment. Drugs activate a lot of people's 'yuck' factor, and they legislate based on that, not based on how harmful they are, or even based on a rational estimate of their overall impact on society. (Incidentally - crack probably wouldn't ever have existed if coke was legal.)

Yet another reason why we should leave running things up to computers. Computers programmed by fish.

(Yes, legalise all drugs in context - selling heroin at the ciggie counter is a stupid idea, giving it free to heroin addicts, is a good idea.)

_____________________________

"When God gives you AIDS -- and God DOES, give you AIDS -- make lemonAIDS!"

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:53:57 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


no employer other than pimps would hire a meth head, or crack head.





   I knew a man who hung drywall
   He hung it mighty quick
   A trip or two to the blue room
   Would help him do the trick

    The foreman would pat him on the back
    Whenever he would come around
     Because those damn blue-collar tweekers
     Are the backbone of this town.

     (Primus)


      

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 5:16:38 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


no employer other than pimps would hire a meth head, or crack head.





  I knew a man who hung drywall
  He hung it mighty quick
  A trip or two to the blue room
  Would help him do the trick

   The foreman would pat him on the back
   Whenever he would come around
    Because those damn blue-collar tweekers
    Are the backbone of this town.

    (Primus)


     


LOL, okay, I guess you proved me wrong.

End of the Song:

Five years later Blue was not to be found
Out in a trailer, mixing poison down.
Come here son, taste this heavenly shit
It'll make your dick, hard as a brick.
I love to tweek,Fuck the working stiffs
used to hang drywall, moved really quick
what a drag working for nothings, sick
One batch of this crap and I'm fucking rich
Not just in money, cars,bling, or material shit
But with this rock, I can have your stupid bitch.
So, they come begging, Blue I want a hit...........

Ass, grass, or cash no one rides for free
So, I spread her  thighs, eeek, it sure does reek.
I got this trailer, and all this still crap.
stereos, tv's come to me in a snap
If I cook it, oh how the crap does come.
Suck my cock bitch this new batch done.

I suck.. LOL.



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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 5:41:19 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

It would not hurt my feelings if they made pot legal. Nope, not at all.


since 1996, starting with the Great State of California, 12 states(sorry, NOT Iowa) have decriminalized marijuana and made provisions in their state laws for folks with medical reasons to use it without breaking STATE law.  in fact, this year the city of Emeryville had to pay $15,000 in court settlement to a patient with a valid presciption whose rights as a citizen within the state of California were violated when city law enforcement tried to enforce FEDERAL law.
the Califonia Highway Patrol has issued a statement that they will NOT confiscate marijuana from a vehicle or driver who holds a valid prescription and many cities including West Hollywood have adopted ordinances to make marijuana arrests the LOWEST priority for their city law enforcement.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 6:23:24 PM   
WyrdRich


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       Hehehehe   Couldn't help myself.  Speed is very nasty stuff and incredibly addictive, but users can remain functional for a while.  Have you seen the "Faces of Meth" photo gallery they did from Portland OR mugshots?  It should be required viewing.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 6:26:08 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

Devilslilsister-Wouldn't you say that it would be even more profitable for our nation if we DID legalize?  This is why I can't understand why our legislators won't legalize!  LOL  This country IS all about money hence one would think that our government would have been able to sniff out the potential capital they stand to gain here. Our farmers are losing their farms and becoming homeless...give them Marijuana to grow and subsidize their land.  Same with Coca trees...and Opiates. All product goes to a government manufacturer run by government employees (creating new jobs) who monitor the strength and quality of the products. Sell it in the tobacco shops (hehe) and tax it. Keep the $$ here for crying out loud.  LOL


Devilslilsister aka Riotgirl.  I never said they were intelligent.  There is alot of facts that you have to think about when it comes to profit.  Judges, lawyers, medical bills, police salaries, half of the feds and all that good property they sieze.  House being used for drug production?  Guess who owns the house now?  Yacht caught delivering drugs?  Guess who owns it?  Cars?  Some of these major cartels that get busted - guess what happens to ALL their stuff.  Anything that is used in a crime and comes from illegal activity.  Bought that diamond with drug money?  Guess who owns it?  The government makes ALOT of money off of drug seizures.  Warehouses full.  Guess what happens to the warehouses?  The stuff gets sold - guess who gets the profits?  Yeah thats right the US Gov.  This is profit from siezures ALONE.  Now calculate in everything else.  Lawyers that get paid tons to get a drug lord off.  Court costs that have to get paid.  The list goes on when it comes to sources of profit when it comes to "the war on drugs" 

Its an obvious substantial amount of money if the goverment would rather have the drugs IN the country, wouldnt you think?  And not just for the goverment - but all around.  If our goverment regulated and legalized drugs alot of people would go out of business.  They can tell when you've bought x amount of syringes a month - whose to say they wouldnt know how much crack you've bought and then cut you off?  If they regulated drugs - rehabs would go out of business.  Do you know HOW profitable the rehab business is?  How many people support their families by working at these places?  There's millions of them.  And that is just one example of outside goverment profit

Cmon now - if you think about it.  If we regulate and legalize drugs, the US will take an economic loss. It is obviously more profitable to keep drugs illegal.  Do some research.  Plus, what money grubbing bastards would not have already thought of a way to save a buck.  I'm sure if they thought they could make more money - they'd of already done it.

On top of that the public can have its war on drugs; the gov can make money and look good doing it.  Doesnt get much better then that.  Why on earth would our goverment want to legalize drugs? 

this is one of the many reasons i've been chanting since i was 16 years old that the Goverment is just a legalized form of the mafia.

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 12/15/2006 6:46:43 PM >

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 6:38:58 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Hehehehe   Couldn't help myself.  Speed is very nasty stuff and incredibly addictive, but users can remain functional for a while.  Have you seen the "Faces of Meth" photo gallery they did from Portland OR mugshots?  It should be required viewing.


yeah for awhile.  If people can maintain any habit they'll be alright.  Its just will power.  When i was 15, i knew a girl who was a straight A student and a herion addict.  She told me that she makes sure she maintains straight A's because drugs get such a bad rap.  People do drugs from all walks of life and maintain just fine.  Doctors, teachers, US embassy gaurds - you name it.  When i was 16, i used to be apart of a drug forum on the net here and there was a group of mothers who would get together every weekend to shoot up herion. 

Point is really, drugs dont destroy you - you destroy you.  Drugs are just another method of doing so.  Just like alcholol, just like road rage, just like reckless driving - just like ANYTHING.  My keyboard doesnt have bad spelling - i have bad spelling.  Cant blame my spelling errors on the keyboard can i?  So why can i blame my problem of destroying myself on the thing i am using to destroy myself?  Drugs are just unfortunately an easy way to destroy yourself.  The best cop out there is.  If you dont "allow" drugs to destroy you - they wont.  Pot can be a gateway to other drugs.  But if you dont ALLOW it - its not.  The other problem with drugs is that many havent the will power to maintain.  Many succumb to its charms. 

Saying that - i've been in the culture long enough in my life to see many who cant maintain and i'm not really one to let "newbies" figure out the hard way if they have the will power to maintain or not.  Seems more like throwing a coin up in the air and wondering which side it'll come down on. 

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 12/15/2006 6:49:16 PM >

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 6:43:46 PM   
ScienceBoy


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From: Bristol, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

       Hehehehe   Couldn't help myself.  Speed is very nasty stuff and incredibly addictive, but users can remain functional for a while.  Have you seen the "Faces of Meth" photo gallery they did from Portland OR mugshots?  It should be required viewing.


And not to beat about the bush - it can also be terrific fun.

Remember Kids! Breathing Kills Braincells.

_____________________________

"When God gives you AIDS -- and God DOES, give you AIDS -- make lemonAIDS!"

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 6:56:27 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      Hehehehe   Couldn't help myself.  Speed is very nasty stuff and incredibly addictive, but users can remain functional for a while.  Have you seen the "Faces of Meth" photo gallery they did from Portland OR mugshots?  It should be required viewing.


Yeah, I wathced many shows on it.

I know this one girl, she comes around to my friends house occasionally, and is a methhead. Anyway, I probably only see her once every six months or so, but she is degenerating just like those pictures. Skinny as a board, hair frizzy and askew. She talks constantly and figgits. Prone to quick anger, if you even mention that she might get off it, God forbid get a job and don't drink out of my soda. LOL.  
Basicly she's a whore, now, and not like Lucky Albatros, either.  This girl, basicly that is all she's mentally capable of being anymore. She doesn't say she's a whore, LOL, but she'll fuck anyone that's got meth. What's That? Anyway, she's a complete leech on societies ass at this point. Crashes at peoples houses and eats their food, bums rides everywhere, calls in the middle of the night. Total leech..... and getting quite ugly as of late. I'm certain she'll be dead by 30, I think she's 19 now. I know she's been using since 15-16ish.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 8:28:52 PM   
petdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Alcohol abuse is the most widespread in terms of drug abuse, because alcohol is so freely available, and also as a result of this has a serious nationwide impact on life quality, health costs and crime. The possible consequence of legalising other drugs added to this, could easily be the total breakdown of the nation.

The solution really is the most difficult - how to resolve the stress in life, without the need for the nation to self medicate itself to oblivion. Given this difficulty, it might seem more simple to enable self medication with a wider choice of acceptable substances, so that however shit life is, it will seem OK. A Brave New World scenario - but then we have that already. Soma, served by the glass.

....<cut&paste>.....

The question really is, can we make life suck less for all, or is it socially more beneficial to enable self medication such that however life sucks, it is made less so through chemical alteration of its impression?


Not every drug is used for a numbing escape, like alcohol or opiates. Cocaine and amphetamines create more of an edge, hallucinogenics can be abused for escapism, but some people do use them in hopes of reaching some sort of enlightenment. i don't know that we'd have such a big problem with meth in this country if other types of amphetamines were available for casual use- more traditional compounds that create the rush without the obsessiveness.

But, that brings us back to a different issue... the reason meth has become such a problem is because it can be synthesized fairly easily. Other than that, it's not a very nice drug. But it's beating prohibition, just like alcohol did when clever country boys started putting their excess corn to good use. Marijuana can be grown quite easily in many areas of the country, as thousands of casual users have learned... which makes collecting taxes difficult if somebody's consumption can be accomodated by a few square yards of plants in his yard. They could make heroin legal to buy over the counter again, and it would be a generic commodity, like aspirin, long long past its patent expiration... where's the money in that, compared to flashy, proprietary stuff like Percocet? You're cutting out the doctors, the AMA, the hospitals, the health insurance industry, the malpractice insurance industry; the pharamaceutical companies and farmers will be making just about squat... disasterous!

But prohibition does other things. It gets people accustomed to being told what they can do with their bodies. Very basic foundation of creating a climate of obedience. It creates a bogeyman, an enemy, a cause. We've been in a "War on Drugs" for decades! A war, people! And in a war, liberty is a small price to pay for safety. The helpless, law-abiding citizens need protection from the enemy, and the only way to do that is with more surveillance, curfews, random searches  without suspicion, checkpoints, laws on money transfers (gee, cuts down on tax cheats too, how 'bout that?), city police departments with helicopters and armored cars. Potentially dangerous weapons have to be consolidated in the hands of the government, lest they be used by the enemy (there's a reason that the image associated with the Mafia during Prohibition was the Thompson submachinegun- they were cheap Army surplus from WWI, available for anyone to purchase. But with Prohibition came organized crime, came public outrage, came the Gun Control Act of 1935. Couldn't buy grenades anymore, either ). Some areas get so dangerous that even curfews sound good.

But i'm ranting. i don't think life sucks for everyone. Richard Branson, for example. Jay Leno. Paris Hilton. There's really nothing for them to escape to. Then some people find that drugs really just bring them further down, and they'd get more out of a good nap. Some people can't be dragged away from Everquest long enough to wash their clothes, much less go all the way out to Walmart for another ounce of bud. While a bar is a classic meeting place for all sorts of demographics, and a weed or X bar would probably do even better for casual hookups, you probably won't get the same kind of social atmosphere at an opium den, much less the boisterous conversation.

And for every person who abuses alcohol to the point where they can no longer function in society, there are literally hundreds who use it in moderation or not at all, supporting them. There's an assumption that other intoxicants have some magical power that will turn that equation on its head, but i don't buy it. i think there is a segment of society that basically can't handle the truth, and no matter what you do, they'll find some way to destroy themselves- booze, meth, reality TV. For everyone else the occasional escape is enough, because the pleasures that reality can give, amidst all of its pain, have too much substance to give up on. At least until we come up with better drugs, and/or better virtual reality.

Here's to science!

...dave





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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 8:37:37 PM   
WyrdRich


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        The means of ingestion really determines how fast they go down.  Truck drivers putting a little in their coffee and construction workers having a snort at mid-day can last for years sometimes.  Even some who inject it can hang on for a while.   Back in a previous life though, I could tell instantly when a friend started smoking it.  Those are the ones we think of as meth heads, eyes wild and sunken, jaw locked in a clench. 

      A lot of the really horrendous health effects are a product of the efforts to control it.  As controls are set in place on the pre-cursors, the cooks move to more toxic recipes with chemicals they can more easily obtain.  That's about the only argument I would make for legalizing speed. 

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 4:48:14 AM   
LaTigresse


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Meth is nasty. Now that I seem to live smack in the centre of the meth capitol of the world I have seen what it does to people. It is just simply horrible. I cannot imagine ever wanting to even try something like that and constantly wonder why anyone would. I get that it is terribly addictive but given the known ingredients and what it does I am amazed that anyone would try it in the first place.

To quote one of my favourite CM posters....back in my salad days (I just love that one, the funny part is I eat one hell of a lot more salads now than I did then) I remember the first time I smoked pot, I was nervous as hell. I had three rational for trying it. It was an all natural substance and not proven to be chemically addictive, I trusted the people I was with and that had it, I had seen many people smoke it with no bad effects.

Over the years since I have tried only two other illegal drugs, windowpane acid once and cocaine once. Hash does not count as it is just pot to the 10th degree.  There are only two others that I would even consider trying and that would be in a very controlled enviroment and would have to trust those that provided and those I was with 100%.......not an easy task since I am by nature very distrusting of people on a deep level. Those two things are mushrooms and peyote.

The funny thing about pot and why I have never understood why it is such a big deal is that compared to alchohol it is basically harmless. Granted I am sure if used in excess it might wack out a few brain cells but I doubt as severely as booze. I have gone for years without even thinking about smoking then will be at an old friends house or have the opportunity and spare $50 to purchase a wee bit and partake. The plus side of it over alchohol is .......mellowwwwww... I have never ever seen a stoned person pick a fight, not once. I have seen Jack Daniels and the like stir up many testoserone laden fist battles.

That being said I also don't believe in the practice of self medicating to deal with lifes difficulties. If I am going to have a few glasses of wine or catch a buzz I want to be in a good frame of mind prior or I will abstain. Last night was a prime example, I got a bottle of wine out, had a very upsetting phone call, left the wine sitting and took a walk to gaze at the stars and listen to the coyotes, came inside took a hot shower and went to bed.

I have noticed that when I am in creative mode, being slightly stoned actually helps. I certainly would not do it at work but when painting or hiking to take photos it seems to enhance. Also when watching a movie. I can focus alot better. I have one of those brains that likes to go 100 miles an hour in 10 different directions, I am sure I would be diagnosed with adult ADD. At work I can force myself to focus on mundane desk work and being able to multi-task is a good thing, I would not want to even consider trying to work under the influence. When painting a picture, it is a different mind set.


_____________________________

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 5:16:07 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Alcohol abuse is the most widespread in terms of drug abuse, because alcohol is so freely available, and also as a result of this has a serious nationwide impact on life quality, health costs and crime. The possible consequence of legalising other drugs added to this, could easily be the total breakdown of the nation.

The solution really is the most difficult - how to resolve the stress in life, without the need for the nation to self medicate itself to oblivion. Given this difficulty, it might seem more simple to enable self medication with a wider choice of acceptable substances, so that however shit life is, it will seem OK. A Brave New World scenario - but then we have that already. Soma, served by the glass.

....<cut&paste>.....

The question really is, can we make life suck less for all, or is it socially more beneficial to enable self medication such that however life sucks, it is made less so through chemical alteration of its impression?


Not every drug is used for a numbing escape, like alcohol or opiates. Cocaine and amphetamines create more of an edge, hallucinogenics can be abused for escapism, but some people do use them in hopes of reaching some sort of enlightenment.

...dave



Whatever the substance, and whatever the fancy idealistic notions, and/or traditional religious reasons surrounding its use, it is used to alter the impression of reality for the user.

Alcohol happens to be our traditional religious substance for attaining spiritual awareness. It is not some accident that we drink in rounds - it is something done in pre-Christian times that has survived, and was part of communal religious ceremony. That other cultures, ancient and modern ascribe specific value to the use of a substance and those substances have entered our culture minus those values, is the same situation we have with alcohol - bereft of its proper cultural place within a religious tradition, it becomes a substance used not to attain spiritual awareness, but to escape reality.

I contest that the problem is the reality in which we live, which leads to abuse of all types of substances. Since we seem incapable or unwilling to consider improving reality, the self medication via substance use is endemic in our societies. Yet again, I'm afraid, I blame a certain desert religion which suppressed what is natural for us, and which wherever it has roamed has had the same effect on native peoples everywhere. The destruction of a culture in which all are valued and which has natural structure leads inevitably to a situation of unhappiness for those not so valuable and having no place in the new system. What we have today is the ongoing result of that first disruption centuries ago, and it would take a monumental effort to resolve - an impossible task probably.

E


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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 7:34:31 AM   
WyrdRich


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      LadyE, you should read 'The Doors of Perception' by Aldous Huxley.  He delves pretty deeply into the things you were discussing.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 9:53:50 AM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

I have never ever seen a stoned person pick a fight, not once. I have seen Jack Daniels and the like stir up many testoserone laden fist battles.


While i agree that pot is better then alcohol for numerous reasons, i'd still like to say that it affects people differently.  Like all drugs.  Its generally the way they effect the brain and how your brain is wired.  Pot actually is like a speed to me - almost - mixed with a downer.  I stopped smoking pot because it started throwing me into terrible anxiety attacks where i would lock myself in a bathroom and curl into a ball.  Heart racing, feeling like my legs will go out, practically hyperventilating and paranoid as all get out. 

Opiates - no matter how they are.  Even my scripted tramadol for back pain.  Had to pull an all nighter - so i took more then i usually did.  By morning, i looked and acted like a meth head.  Jittery, talking a mile a minute - ect.  Opiates for most, is a downer.  For me its an upper.  I seem to be living in crack country which if you ask me is one of the stupidest drugs out there.   Never run into a meth head - must be something new fangled.  i remember when i was 15 and Ice was all over - but other then it helping those that used it to become alittle bit skitzophrantic - never saw the equivilent to a "meth head"

druggs are bad, okay?

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 10:00:05 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Seeks - it is that life is shit, that leads to drug use (including alcohol) and that leads to problems for all.

Some of us simply enjoy altering our perception...it isn't always an escape, some times it is just for fun


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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 10:06:56 AM   
Arpig


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I think that street drugs should be legal simply because I don't think the Gvt should be telling me what I can and cannot ingest for whatever reason I choose to ingest it.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 10:38:31 AM   
LotusSong


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I dunno.. if someone is stoned.. I'd hate to be driving on the same road they are.  Booze is bad enough. 
 
If they  do drugs.. do it in their HOME.  Then STAY there until they are sober again.
 
People need to get a grip on life instead of trying to "escape reality" for awhile, anyway.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 11:11:59 AM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeon

But that's just the point.  By criminalizing street drugs the government has CREATED a black market over which they have NO control. 

If they legalized them they could completely control them.  They could tax them, sell them, oversee the growth (or development) and therefore quality and strength of said drugs. 

We wouldn't have street thugs killing each other over sales territories and junkies dying in alleyways. 



I doubt many of us would disagree with any of this, and you're talking boatloads of benefits here.  

quote:

The War on Drugs is a completely self-defeatist endeavor. 


It's probably debatable whether or not at least some positive benefit has occurred as a result of the War On Drugs.

I personally believe that it has been, for the most part, a dismal failure.

quote:

And let's be honest...what is the main reason most kids try drugs in the first place???   Because mom and dad and "big brother" all say they shouldn't. The more taboo something is, the more interesting it is to young people who are already naturally inquisitive and looking to explore anything and everything.


I don't know about most kids. But when I was experimenting with street drugs back in the late 60's and early 70's, the "taboo appeal" had nothing to do with my attraction to drugs. In fact, drugs were never even discussed at home or at school (at the faculty level).

My involvement in street drugs had everything to do with being highly inquisitive, and my selection of like-minded peers. I really can't blame it on peer pressure, since I was usually the ring-leader.  

I understand that public schools today are involved with street-drug education, and have been for some time now. And more parents are involved today too. So the taboo appeal may be more of a factor these days.

quote:

So in addition to making money for the country off of the taxes on the drugs and cutting down the gang related violence they probably would also cut down on the demand for the drugs as well.


I doubt any thinking person would argue the position that a huge potential tax benefit wouldn't be created if street drugs were legalized.

I also think most people would agree that we'd see a major reduction in gang-related violence.

A major reduction in the demand for drugs is probably your most debatable comment. I would think that staunch opponents to legalized street drugs might argue that legalization might increase the demand for drugs.

I really don't know myself (and I'm not going to do immediate research on this). Does anyone happen to know if the demand for alcohol increased or decreased after Prohibition?

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/16/2006 11:14:19 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I think that street drugs should be legal simply because I don't think the Gvt should be telling me what I can and cannot ingest for whatever reason I choose to ingest it.


You know that would work if we all lived in our own little bubbles of reality and didn't affect anyone else.

So, I take it going along the Personal freedom route, that I shouldn't have to pay for supporting these people or their kids once they fuck their lives into oblivion.  Or does the personal freedom route stop with freedom of ingestion. I'm curious, really.  



(in reply to Arpig)
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