RE: References

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Elegant -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:15:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened i live in rural South Carolina. The nearest dungeon is over 150 miles away and i do not have the resources in time or money to become a well-known member of the dungeon. There are people who know me, if asked i can name names but by this logic anyone who is geographically-challenged must be a fake? just curious. These are two active groups in your area. August Iron Rose Society (AIRS): http://www.geocities.com/airs_us Georgia Dungeon Society (Augusta): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Georgian_Dungeon_Society/

Elegant -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:25:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LW3 quote: ORIGINAL: Unicorm2 I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. yes. you are wrong. if you need that to trust your Master what a poor excuse of a submisive you are. don't you trust your Master? then how can you be his slave? I HOPE you are being sarcastic with this reply. Note that the OP was not refering to her Master but to new people she meets. Even in an ownership M/s relationship it is not 'trust' that is the issue. I trust my Master implicitly. We are fluid bonded and have been for quite a few years. Regardless, we both get HIV and STD tested annually. In this life we are in it would be foolish not to do so. We go to dungeons and play parties where there is blood play and other fluid play. We cannot guarantee that everyone present is free of STD's and/or that they completly sterilize their play area and toys. In addition, too many people do not know the inherent risks that can come from 'safe' play such as simple flogging, clothespins etc. Why take a risk with life?

SirDominic -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:31:37 AM)
Wow, some of the responses so far have been down right scary. Thank goodness there have been some very common sense ones, too. Unicorm2, asking for references is never a bad idea. As some have pointed out, not everyone is close enough to be in a local community, but for those who are, and don’t, I would wonder why. Most, but not everyone in the scene are into exhibitionism, so at play parties you see a lot of people doing their thing. I don’t happen to be into that, so I don’t generally play at group parties, but I am known in my local community, and many of the more respected local members would vouch for me. All that being said, I think you may be putting too much emphasis on references. Some have rightly pointed out, references can only take you so far, and sometimes they can be totally bogus. The important thing to understand is someone with no references should not be automatically dismissed, and someone who comes with good references should not automatically be trusted. In the end, you have to get to know any potential Dominant, and they have to get to know you. If you feel a connection, great. Proceed with care. If you have vague feelings of unease, proceed very cautiously. The point is, it takes time to develop the trust that is required to play in our fetish world. There is no shortcut for this. Any Dominant that is insulted to be asked for references, or who believes that asking them about these issues is stepping on their delicate Dominant toes are either players without the knowledge or confidence to know what they are doing; or someone with a god complex. In either case, I would run the other way. Any Dominant worth his salt knows that trust is earned, never given blindly. This has never been more true than now, with the internet explosion of these sites, any idiot can hang a “Master” shingle, and a great deal of them are completely bogus. My advice, don’t take anyone one person’s opinion (including mine) as gospel. Sir Dominic

juliaoceania -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:51:06 AM)
I think that references "could" be important depending on what you may want from the encounter and how much time one is willing to devote to getting to know someone before playing with them. Personally speaking, the last reference in the world I would care about is a lifestyle one. I want to know how this person gets along with ex wives and girlfriends, his parents, his children, does he have long time friendships, does he have a good job history... these tell me the things I want to know about a person, not how many years he has successfully wielded a flogger. That is nice ancillary information, but it is not going to tell me what I really want to know... what kind of long term relationship material is this guy? That is what I truly want to know.. I am willing to put my body on the line so we can learn the rest slowly. In my situation I was lucky that he is intelligent, does not take risks with me, and he has some experience... but the important stuff I listed above. Now this may not be what you are looking for, but instead you may desire someone experienced in certain aspects of BDSM play, if that is the case I suppose the references would be crucial and outweigh this person's character references which can only be defined by their long term associations. From what I have read here D/s relationships are fairly short lived ones for the most part, so for me a man's ability to sustain long term relationships was crucial.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:57:19 AM)
quote: meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom It's not wrong of you to expect it, it's wrong of you to do anything else but say "OK I understand" when someone doesn't give it to you. I don't provide references, even though I've been highly active and in the public scene for years. I find them pointless and frankly have no desire to drag someone else into my personal relationship choices. If someone doesn't know how to get to know me and trust their own judgement, they aren't going to be a good match with me from the start.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: References (12/16/2006 8:01:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lmiss The sub is so vulnerable, BS- the sub is only as vulnerable as they allow themselves to be. And doms can be just as much. quote: the drop is seriously dangerous for some of us Well then they shouldn't get themselves into situations where drop might be an issue. I fail to see how references will help in that endeavor.

eyesopened -> RE: References (12/16/2006 9:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elegant quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened i live in rural South Carolina. The nearest dungeon is over 150 miles away and i do not have the resources in time or money to become a well-known member of the dungeon. There are people who know me, if asked i can name names but by this logic anyone who is geographically-challenged must be a fake? just curious. These are two active groups in your area. August Iron Rose Society (AIRS): http://www.geocities.com/airs_us Georgia Dungeon Society (Augusta): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Georgian_Dungeon_Society/ i belong to both yahoo groups. i have never seen anything posted on the Georgia Dungeon Society that would lend me to believe there is an active dungeon in Augusta but i could be wrong. AIRS munches are held on week-day evenings and while i know it sounds like an excuse, i am not able to take time off work to attend. i do belong to another group and have attended functions where people know me but i have never played with anyone from the groups so how would they vouch for me other than to say i am an actual human being who exists and has never done anything untoward that they have witnessed? If people can provide references or have the time to be active in local or regional communities then i think they should be but when i had someone in Charleston tell me they could never trust someone who doesn't play in public it kind of turned me away from the whole "scene" i do thank you very much for the advice however and will watch the Georgia Dungeon Society a bit more closely. Thank you.

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 9:47:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened i do belong to another group and have attended functions where people know me but i have never played with anyone from the groups so how would they vouch for me other than to say i am an actual human being who exists and has never done anything untoward that they have witnessed? Don't underestimate what they can vouch for, even under such minimal circumstances: Your gender. That you do not show up with a new collar and Master each month. That your demeanor is appropriate for the setting. Your marital status. Whatever sentiments, philosophy, attitudes, etc. that you have expressed in their company. Whether your expressed/observed interests are play or relationsip oriented. Whether you are discreet and respective of other people's privacy as it relates to their lifestyle participation. I could go on at length. These are not meaningless issues for those that may "meet" online. And quite often the people in our local communities get to know us quite well, become our friends, visit our homes, and can vouch for a great deal more. John

aSlavesLife -> RE: References (12/16/2006 11:42:47 AM)
This is the slave side of our relationship writing. I wrote my master after reading one of his posts here. We were both at that time members here, and have since created a joint profile. After contacting him due to something he said, I wrote him in August. After e-mails for several days we exchanged phone numbers and spoke for 5-8 hours daily on average. Soon he was micro-managing my life over the phone. By mid November we had decided that we had so much in common that we were going to begin a M/s relationship. In our conversations we had both agreed that we had nothing in common with our respective local communities, The ones in New York that I had attended came off more as tops and bottoms rather than masters and slaves. He had expressed similar sentiments concerning his local Texas groups. After 3 months I had decided to be collared by a man I had only spoken to by mail, phone, and on webcam. He sent me the money needed to move on, and I packed my belongings ( now his belongings ), moved from the east coast to Texas, and placed my life in the hands of a man that I had never met in person. There were no references exchanged, I was a 24/7 slave for 8 years before my previous master died in an accident. A year later I tried the local communities and found that I could not relate to the people there. None of them had lived in a M/s relationship like mine and could not seem to grasp the concept. Hence my days with the local community were null and void. My masters experience ran along the same lines, He spoke to me of going to local events and feeling that the people there were going through the motions, but did not actually live the way he had in the past with his previous slave. He said that they were nice and helpful people, but that he felt like they spoke a different language. So you could say that there were no references for us. Neither of us could have provided references had we wanted to ( How could I? My previous owner had been dead for several years! ), and would not have done so even if we could have. I had spoken with members of his family on the phone prior to coming here, but that was all. This may be different for newbies, but I am a good judge of character and knew to follow my gut instincts. He had expressed his concern that I never had cold feet, and often talked to me about it. But I knew from our talks that we were more compatable than anyone I had ever ran into before. If someone had told me 2 years ago that I would be moving across the country to give myself to a man I had never met, I would have laughed in their face. Now, from the moment of meeting him, I can't imagine life any other way. If I had gone through all the so called safe routes, I think it would have hindered me rather than helped me as I would have doubted my self judgement. slave L

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 12:23:54 PM)
I'm really glad things worked out for the both of you. But based upon your rendition of what transpired, you're right... you probably have very little in common with most real time groups. John

aSlavesLife -> RE: References (12/16/2006 12:48:18 PM)
Rover, Thanks, I think. Just not sure what you mean though. We are real time. Does the fact that she and I live together in a real time M/s relationship mean that we, unlike the people that get together part time in a dungeon, are somehow not real time? I must be really confused about what real time means, then. Some of us do fine without groups and dungeons. In the words of my pet; " I don't want someone jumping in while I am being beaten. Who are they to say that my ass should not look like chopped meat? My protocol might not be theirs, and I have no use for them to try to shove what they consider right down my throat. I find it best to avoid that type entirely. " I know that the majority of BDSM'ers are not present on collarme. But it is nice to see that the majority of people that felt compelled to respond to this thread feel that references are unnecessary.

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 1:14:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife Rover, Thanks, I think. Just not sure what you mean though. We are real time. Does the fact that she and I live together in a real time M/s relationship mean that we, unlike the people that get together part time in a dungeon, are somehow not real time? I must be really confused about what real time means, then. Some of us do fine without groups and dungeons. In the words of my pet; " I don't want someone jumping in while I am being beaten. Who are they to say that my ass should not look like chopped meat? My protocol might not be theirs, and I have no use for them to try to shove what they consider right down my throat. I find it best to avoid that type entirely. " I know that the majority of BDSM'ers are not present on collarme. But it is nice to see that the majority of people that felt compelled to respond to this thread feel that references are unnecessary. No one has questioned your veracity as real time practitioners of BDSM or the validity of your relationship. No need to be defensive. To elaborate: 1. Most real time folks/groups would not advocate moving cross country to live with someone you have never met. It's great that it worked out for you, but you're decidedly the exception rather than the rule. It's an enormous risk, though that is not to say that some people (like yourselves) will not take it. 2. You obviously have been exposed to real time groups unlike anything I'm familiar with. I've never seen anyone "jump into" someone else's scene. No one will have a problem if you desire your buttocks to look like chopped meat, though they will mind if in the process your partner has broken the skin and is atomizing blood droplets that are inhaled by everyone in the room, thereby placing them at risk for HIV and Hepatitis. You don't have the right to put others at risk without their consent. 3. Most of the groups I know of (and I know quite a few) aren't much for protocol, beyond average civilities (ie: common courtesies). There are "high protocol" groups, though they are (relatively speaking) rare and not much my cup of tea. Consequently, I'm not sure what groups were shoving their protocol down your throats. Perhaps if you name the groups, I could better appreciate your complaint. 4. Certainly references are not a requirement for everyone. That's a matter of personal choice. If it's not your choice, no problem. Though I would suggest that it's hypocritical to demand your freedom of choice, but to denounce those who express their freedom of choice by requiring references. It works both ways. My initial post in this thread detailed several sound reasons for the use of references. Rebutting those reasons by saying that they're not necessary isn't effective. If you'd like to detail advantages to not using references, I'm all ears. However, it's more likely that there are not any advantages to not using references; rather it's simply a matter of some folks choosing not to avail themselves of all the information available to them and/or not having them available to share (for whatever reason they choose to cite). John

Voltare -> RE: References (12/16/2006 1:35:33 PM)
John & All, It would seem that meeting lifestylers online has become more common over the past decade or so. As with any sort of socialization, there's going to be good and bad in it. The very elements that draw people online makes it a difficult, and sometimes dangerous to meet people - the fact that when we sit down behind the box, we can be ourselves - or anyone else we wish to be - with only the repercussions in our real life that we are willing to face. Thus an underaged person might claim to be a fifty year old dominant with thirty years of lifestyle experience, etc etc without ever being 'outed' unless they choose to reveal that fact. I don't believe the answer lies in pedigrees and certifications. A focus on geographic (and financial) considerations is much more sensible. I very well wouldn't fly to Russia or Taiwan for a three hour session - if someone lives more than a few hours away, I chalk it up to an 'internet friend' and leave it at that. If, over time, circumstances or chance permits, I might one day meet one of those friends (and I have met a number of people from the net) then great. The necessity for any sort of verification suggests that if I am 'cleared' then the next step is to get together to play, hows Friday sound? No question this happens, but I don't think this is either the norm, nor does any sort of background check reduce the associated risks. There's nothing wrong with using the internet the same way anyone might use a pickup bar, but I certainly wouldn't demand someone present an HIV test and reference phone numbers at a bar - and I wouldn't have any interest in someone who asked for it off the bat. If, after having spent some time getting to know the person - in real life - I might be more inclined to discuss these highly personal issues.

Archer -> RE: References (12/16/2006 1:36:04 PM)
It gives me pause when a person has no references. (Read that however many times it takes to read only what is in the sentane and nothing more.) It opens up a whole new line of questions I want answered, to my satisfaction. It does not disqualify them from anything it mearly means that I have less information about them and thus will need longer to gather it. Personal references are one thing and certainly need anywhere from a grain to a block of salt. Group references also need salt but usually less than a personal one. Sure they can be set up ahead of time to paint a glowing but false picture of the person. but even that tells you something about them. They do not substitute for doing your other normal checks they augment them. References also run the gamut from at a party "Hey do you know a guy named Master L? We've been talking and he says he knows some folks in this group." To a formal letter of reference/ introduction from someone who has know the person for years and seen how they live their BDSM life and watched as they attended demos workshops and parties. Has the guy/girl been involved with charity fund raisers for the community. Heck you can even get vanilla references simply keeping the requested information as if you were considering dating the person, from family members or vanilla freinds. eyesopened, Colubia SC has T3WD a good group, www.T3WD.org They have munches, meetings, demos and parties at an area venue in Columbia, a short 56 + or - miles from Aiken. Evil Geoff (sp) is a past president of the group and is on CM.

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 1:44:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover People without references dismiss their value for personal, not logical reasons (ie: they don't have them, so they denigrate them). But the BDSM community has a long tradition and history of using references, because they do provide meaningful information. Nice job of putting the cart before the horse! I'd argue the opposite, that people (such as yourself) who advocate the value of references see themselves as superior and sanctimonious, like you're on a higher level that all should strive to attain. Thus you dismiss us non believers as denigrating you. But ok, maybe this is more a chicken and egg argument.... quote: 1. References from recognized groups, organizations, communities, etc. can be authenticated. As opposed to references from unknown individuals whose authenticity cannot be ascertained (in fact, the stranger writing you may even be the individual you're checking on writing to you from a different email address). A references "sub-group" now, for known and unknown individuals...? quote: 2. These references can authenticate an individual's personal history. It separates fact from fiction, and most people find it helpful to know (early on) whether someone is lying to them or not. Did you really say that - "authenticate an individual's personal history"??? Sorry mate, but some of us happen to think "personal" means NOT for publication! Or anybody else's business - need to know basis only! quote: 3. References can authenticate whether an individual's skill set is derived from community demos, workshops, dungeons, and interaction with real people, versus the internet (often from anonymous sources), magazines, books and interaction with inanimate objects. Some people will find this information valuable in discerning whether they will be someone's partner, or guinea pig. Ahh yes, a personal favourite.... You're only genuine if you've played publically. It's all about the play, not the personal intimacy. And contrary to popular belief, many of us use the Internet as a means of communication rather than the environment we live our relationships in. quote: 4. References can authenticate an individual's reputation within the community. Most reputations are well earned, and some people will find it helpful to know how an individual has come to be thought of in that way (good or bad). The most spectacular flaw of ALL references! Just exactly how many people offer references from anyone likely to say something negative? quote: 5. References can authenticate that an individual socializes real time with other lifestylers. Some people may want/need that socialization, others may not. Denying the value of socialization denies the very existence and popularity of boards like this. And what if they're not interested in socialising with other lifestylers beyond their personal relationships? That's a red flag now? quote: 6. Since the past is a predictor (though not a guarantor) of the future, these references can indicate that an individual will continue to benefit from the resources provided by their local community. And don't forget to compile a lifestyle/personal relationship CV while you're at it. Should make for great entertainment.... quote: Like you, I (and the vast majority of folks I know) are more than happy to provide references where there is a mutual interest in getting to know one another. They provide a level of credibility at that crucial stage in which someone could be creating a fictitious persona and personal resume. I know, that would be a rareity online, wouldn't it? Yikes, there it is - "personal resume"!!!! Is it really so difficult to grasp that D/s or M/s is the dynamic by which many of us prefer to live our personal and private lives and relationships? That even if there were a local community or dungeon where I lived, I still wouldn't be interested strutting about with slave(s) in tow for others to judge and validate my bona fides? By all means feel sanitised and superior for living a mutually referenced lifestyle but doing anything publically leaves anyone open to "denigration", so learn to accept the consequences, too! But pardon me if I don't feel the least bit soiled, inadequate or inferior as a consequence of my personal choices. Focus.

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 1:52:58 PM)
Not that I don't agree with much of what you said, Voltare. But you also made a convincing case for how and why people end up investing copious amounts of time and effort (and sometimes money) in someone who remains an anonymous stranger, only to find out that much (if not all) of what they are told is an utter fabrication. These boards are rife with such complaints, and admonishions to be more careful next time. No one is suggesting any sort of "certification". Just that when they are available, references are a good source of information. We use them regularly in our lives. If we meet someone that knows a friend, we ask about them. When someone applies for a job, we ask for references. References are nothing more than information sources, and I cannot fathom that anyone would credibly claim that less information is better (or safer) than more information. John

Archer -> RE: References (12/16/2006 2:05:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: 1. References from recognized groups, organizations, communities, etc. can be authenticated. As opposed to references from unknown individuals whose authenticity cannot be ascertained (in fact, the stranger writing you may even be the individual you're checking on writing to you from a different email address). A references "sub-group" now, for known and unknown individuals...? Yes known and unknown, if you are known then fine I can get any basic questions answered by someone with no dog in the fight, if on the otherhand you are unknown I'll have to find other ways of finding the infromation I need to have before I meet alone. quote: 2. These references can authenticate an individual's personal history. It separates fact from fiction, and most people find it helpful to know (early on) whether someone is lying to them or not. Did you really say that - "authenticate an individual's personal history"??? Sorry mate, but some of us happen to think "personal" means NOT for publication! Or anybody else's business - need to know basis only! If this person is about to meet you alone for the first time for play or something then they have a NEED TO KNOW some things that are personal since the proposed activities are personal. quote: 3. References can authenticate whether an individual's skill set is derived from community demos, workshops, dungeons, and interaction with real people, versus the internet (often from anonymous sources), magazines, books and interaction with inanimate objects. Some people will find this information valuable in discerning whether they will be someone's partner, or guinea pig. Ahh yes, a personal favourite.... You're only genuine if you've played publically. It's all about the play, not the personal intimacy. And contrary to popular belief, many of us use the Internet as a means of communication rather than the environment we live our relationships in. Ah yes my personal favorite as well shifting the meaning of what was said to make it a problem, LOL What was said was that where and how a person learned a given skillset is relevent to the issue of if someone is going to trust any claimed level of skill. Nothing in this requires a public play time at all. If you learned caning from Miss Caneable one on one switching and can provide a reference from her that you did, then that tells me one thing about your skill basis as opposed to if you read Screw the Roses and experimented until you got it right with a play partner. This doessn;t mean either way is right or wrong universally but it does tell me something about how you gather your knowledge. quote: 4. References can authenticate an individual's reputation within the community. Most reputations are well earned, and some people will find it helpful to know how an individual has come to be thought of in that way (good or bad). The most spectacular flaw of ALL references! Just exactly how many people offer references from anyone likely to say something negative? Finally something I can agree with you on which is the reason behind the idea of a group reference rather than an individual one. If you say I've been a member of "John's Spankers" for 3 years then I can contact John's Spankers for a reference and ask around to see if I can find others in John's Spankers and get an unbiased by your selection reference. quote: 5. References can authenticate that an individual socializes real time with other lifestylers. Some people may want/need that socialization, others may not. Denying the value of socialization denies the very existence and popularity of boards like this. And what if they're not interested in socialising with other lifestylers beyond their personal relationships? That's a red flag now? Actually yes it is a red flag, that is not to say it disqualifies them only that it says "Look here there might be a problem you want to ask about this more and gather more information on this area. I always wonder what people are thinking when they read "red flag" beyond the idea that it signals a possible problem and requires that you look into it. quote: 6. Since the past is a predictor (though not a guarantor) of the future, these references can indicate that an individual will continue to benefit from the resources provided by their local community. And don't forget to compile a lifestyle/personal relationship CV while you're at it. Should make for great entertainment.... OK how many times has it been said here already that nobody is saying YOU or anyone else has to do it. Only that it CAN serve a purpose. quote: Like you, I (and the vast majority of folks I know) are more than happy to provide references where there is a mutual interest in getting to know one another. They provide a level of credibility at that crucial stage in which someone could be creating a fictitious persona and personal resume. I know, that would be a rareity online, wouldn't it? Yikes, there it is - "personal resume"!!!! Is it really so difficult to grasp that D/s or M/s is the dynamic by which many of us prefer to live our personal and private lives and relationships? That even if there were a local community or dungeon where I lived, I still wouldn't be interested strutting about with slave(s) in tow for others to judge and validate my bona fides? By all means feel sanitised and superior for living a mutually referenced lifestyle but doing anything publically leaves anyone open to "denigration", so learn to accept the consequences, too! But pardon me if I don't feel the least bit soiled, inadequate or inferior as a consequence of my personal choices. Focus. In other words Pot meet Kettle, you say he's being sanctamonious, I say here's a mirror.

LW3 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 2:15:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover No one is suggesting any sort of "certification". Just that when they are available, references are a good source of information. I think we have forgoten the first post. let me quote it: quote: ORIGINAL: Unicorm2 Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you? reading this I don't belive that she is saying anything about references "Just when they are available". she is more like implying that if you aren't know by someone as a Dom then you aren't trustworthy. Of course, when references are available they are a good information source but lack of references doesn't make us less trustworthy. it only makes harder to determine if we are trustworthy or not.

LordODiscipline -> RE: References (12/16/2006 2:16:20 PM)
*It is never wrong to ask for references where you intend on exploring an intimate, personal, or business relationship with someone.* *There is no legitimate reason someone cannot provide them.* *If they are not a member of the local community, get them from someone who is just a close friend (with absolute assurances you will not 'out them', certainly)* *The logic you are using that "if you are not a member of a community, therefore you are not trustworthy" is faulted.... they could be 'trustworthy' - just not "trusting"* *If they blanche at giving a solid (commuity member and/or friend as reference), forget them and move on - it was not "meant to be" and you probably saved yourself a lot of grief.* *But, just remember - references are only as good as the person that is giving it...* I have a good friend who was speaking with a "Ancient European Trained Grand Master" and when asked if he had any references (to prove the point) was given an individual who said that the couple in question were (indeed) the salt of the earth... and, that he could vouch for them as "European Trained Grand Master" (et al).... *When asked how long he knew them - he said for a bit less than a year - but, that they "really knew the stuff that a Grand Master who is European Trained would know" <paraphrase>* *So - if the references are given - ask the pertinent questions of those references.* ~J quote: ORIGINAL: Unicorm2 When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?

Archer -> RE: References (12/16/2006 2:19:42 PM)
OK LOD that reference needs not just a block of salt but a pillar, LOL.

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