RE: References

RE: References (Full Version)

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Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover References are information sources. Are you seriously advocating that less information is better than more information? I suspect your position is hypocritical, in that you use references regularly in your daily life. Everyone does. You ask friends, family and business associates about people you do not know. You either use references when applying for a job, or ask for them from potential employees. No, I'm advocating that my personal relationships are not nor ever the business of third parties - it ain't rocket science yanno! Your suspicions are wrong, I do NOT use references in my everyday life nor even on a regular basis beyond a simple "Do you know a good plumber/electrician/mechanic" etc when such need arises; maybe once every few years.... quote: Sorry, mate, but we make people's personal history our business all the time. If you have prior convictions for rape (literal, not play), a reputation for nonconsensually touching people you don't own, are married but telling potential partners that you're single... it surely is the business of anyone that might be interested in knowing the real you (at the very least for their own protection). If you have a good reputation, there's nothing to worry about. But if you're worried about your reputation, then avoiding groups is probably a good strategy. Not French, are you? I believe their justice system also works on a basis of "guilty till proven innocent", too! Mercifully, France is a longggg way from here. quote: Who said anything about play? I surely did not. Relationships, control, consistency, etc. are also skill sets. And while you may be living your relationships real time, please tell me where you learn what you know? If you're not attending demos, munches, workshops, events, etc... just where is it that you have learned what you know? Those questions are equally valid for B/D S/M skill sets as well. Did you learn wax play from a video? Did you learn fire and needle play in an online chatroom? I'm not saying it invalidates you if you did, but don't you think potential partners have the right to be informed that your "Mastery" of fire play doesn't mean you've actually done it with a real human before? What does informed consent mean to you? You just did now! These are all physical skills anyone, even submissives, can learn or teach - for the purposes of play! Unlike the unconnected "pieces of meat" you might play with as virtual strangers, do you seriously think I and anyone like me would risk the safety and well-being of the slave I own, love and care for? And none of it has anything to do with creating or living a relationship founded on a D/s dynamic of rules and servitude - it's merely physical expression and fulfillment of mutual needs. It's Topping and bottoming - the focus is on play.... quote: To have a good reputation within a group speaks well for anyone. There's no flaw in that. Don't hold it against someone that they are well thought of by others. That's convoluted logic to the extreme. Chicken and egg again. Same for those of us who are independent and private individuals. The person who's opinion matters most to me is that fella in the mirror - he has a conscience, high standards and is responsible for how well I sleep at nights. (very soundly, btw) quote: If I have an interest in socializing with other lifestylers (which I do), and an interested partner does not, it is most certainly a red flag regarding our compatibility. That's undeniable. Agreed, said much the same in my original post but from the opposite perspective. quote: I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, so I won't even hazard a guess. If you'd like to make another stab at it, feel free. For complimenting references - to "entertain" the recipient with even more personal information she hasn't yet earnt the right to know.... quote: I grasp the dynamics of power exchange relationships rather well, thank you. I've even been known to present on the topic to groups, workshops, etc. And while there may be some who need to "strut about" for personal validation, neither I nor the people I know fall into that category. Though judging by how sensitive and defensive you are about this topic, you might benefit from a little personal validation yourself. As for my (or anyone else's) references, they remain a valuable source of information when making the acquaintance of others. Sensitive? For not believing in the "one true way" both you and the OP are seemingly advocating? Whateverrrr.... And I'm always amused at those who think "defensive" is a shortcoming - or phobia, even.... lol Not all of us believe in the supposed nobility of "turning the other cheek", either! I can respect another opinion but it doesn't mean I have to suffer it in silence. But I'm fine with being labelled "defensive" even when I know you mean it as an insult. wink Focus.

LordODiscipline -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:24:10 PM)
*As I made mention of in my posting -* *References may look good - checking them does good.* *The fact is that 'whole companys' will not return phone calls ;)* ~J quote: ORIGINAL: untamedshysub well just because they have references does not mean much. I have seen people create whole companies and provide proof of income that never existed because they knew how to play the game. Know somoeone who purchased two BMW with fake references so no its not the reference that makes the Dom and even if they know the person that does not make me less crazy behind closed doors.

LordODiscipline -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:37:17 PM)
*Focus -* *Please do not ever use references...* *I would hate for people to:* *1. Have to vouch for you* *2. Believe that you have people that will vouch for you* *3. Have that additional ability and tool to use in order to ensure that they are safe if they ever meet you* *4. Know 'your business'* *5. Become "intimate" with you, but not THAT "intimate".* Is it too difficult to grasp that meeting someone can be rather tenuous and that this might place this person whom you shall "love, cherish and protect" at ease - knowing that you are the grand person you claim to be on the web? *I find that oddly silly.* *But - I will tell you what -* *The fact is, it does not matter whether you use them or not.* *If someone else chooses to because they feel that it is yet another means of meeting people safely, then they will not be meeting you -* *But, what does it matter?* *I just think "the lady doth protest too much" (and, too vehemently) about something that will not affect you...* *Analogy:* *Why would you deride people that choose to lock their houses at night - simply because you choose to not own a door?* ~J

slavejali -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:42:43 PM)
This is my reference: "Slave Jali is the most awesome amazing being in the entire world. If you don't believe it, your loss" hehehe

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:49:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 The inference has been that if I don't do it (references), I have something to hide - that I'm untrustworthy! pffft Focus. The inference that you clearly make is that you're insecure about this issue. Really, you're beyond having an intellectual discussion about the issue and are simply having a public hissy fit. John P.S. - Lots of very fine folks are interested in and participate in B/D S/M, without an interest in power exchange relationships. Why do you continually besmirch them? It is a personal challenge to be diplomatic with you, when you demonstrate such contempt for others and their kinks. No wonder you are not part of any local community... frankly, bigots like you generally aren't welcome. When I'm perceived as having a "hissy fit" by someone as obviously flustered as you are here, I know it's time to invoke the equivalent of baseball's "mercy" rule and hope you'll calm down soon.... Lol, I'm still pondering the prospect of not being welcome in a community I have no desire to be part of.... Focus.

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 5:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: Rover References are information sources. Are you seriously advocating that less information is better than more information? I suspect your position is hypocritical, in that you use references regularly in your daily life. Everyone does. You ask friends, family and business associates about people you do not know. You either use references when applying for a job, or ask for them from potential employees. No, I'm advocating that my personal relationships are not nor ever the business of third parties - it ain't rocket science yanno! Your suspicions are wrong, I do NOT use references in my everyday life nor even on a regular basis beyond a simple "Do you know a good plumber/electrician/mechanic" etc when such need arises; maybe once every few years.... Your profile says you're employed. If so, you might be a union member, where your union card is your reference. Or you might be in management, in which case you would encounter the use of references daily for suppliers, equipment, computers or programming, etc. Of course, it's always possible that you're a sheep herder, and might only need reference for an effective sheep dip. You probably had a reference for a good dealership when buying a car (presuming you own one). Perhaps the gent who services and repairs your vehicle also came to you by recommendation. Maybe you had a reference for a real estate agent when buying a home. Certainly the home inspector gave you a reference for the property before you were able to secure a mortgage, from the bank that was probably recommended to you by a friend. You might eat at a restaurant that come highly regarded by some family or friends who have eaten there previously. Or shop at a store with a reputation for selling quality products for fair prices. Your neighbor may have recommended the lawn service to you, since they do a good job for him as well. Consumer reports might have given a good reference for the computer you use to connect to the internet and write insanely silly things on bulletin boards. Or you could be the one idiot in all the world who do does not use references at all (my money is riding on you... you're very convincing). John

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:01:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *Focus -* *Please do not ever use references...* *I would hate for people to:* *1. Have to vouch for you* *2. Believe that you have people that will vouch for you* *3. Have that additional ability and tool to use in order to ensure that they are safe if they ever meet you* *4. Know 'your business'* *5. Become "intimate" with you, but not THAT "intimate".* Is it too difficult to grasp that meeting someone can be rather tenuous and that this might place this person whom you shall "love, cherish and protect" at ease - knowing that you are the grand person you claim to be on the web? *I find that oddly silly.* *But - I will tell you what -* *The fact is, it does not matter whether you use them or not.* *If someone else chooses to because they feel that it is yet another means of meeting people safely, then they will not be meeting you -* *But, what does it matter?* *I just think "the lady doth protest too much" (and, too vehemently) about something that will not affect you...* *Analogy:* *Why would you deride people that choose to lock their houses at night - simply because you choose to not own a door?* Protest too much (and, too vehemently)? Can't I just be offering an alternate opinion? Like the opinions of many others in this thread, your analogy assumes there's only one "right way". Another analogy is that the wagons are clearly circling yet I'm the solitary indian.... lol <puffs the chest wayyyy out> Yorta get outside more.... Focus.

kyra -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:04:27 PM)
i really don't think references are required. not everyone goes to dungeons and bdsm clubs. i do frequently, but i don't need someone of supposed "status" in order to be interested

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:16:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Your profile says you're employed. If so, you might be a union member, where your union card is your reference. Or you might be in management, in which case you would encounter the use of references daily for suppliers, equipment, computers or programming, etc. Of course, it's always possible that you're a sheep herder, and might only need reference for an effective sheep dip. You probably had a reference for a good dealership when buying a car (presuming you own one). Perhaps the gent who services and repairs your vehicle also came to you by recommendation. Maybe you had a reference for a real estate agent when buying a home. Certainly the home inspector gave you a reference for the property before you were able to secure a mortgage, from the bank that was probably recommended to you by a friend. You might eat at a restaurant that come highly regarded by some family or friends who have eaten there previously. Or shop at a store with a reputation for selling quality products for fair prices. Your neighbor may have recommended the lawn service to you, since they do a good job for him as well. Consumer reports might have given a good reference for the computer you use to connect to the internet and write insanely silly things on bulletin boards. Or you could be the one idiot in all the world who do does not use references at all (my money is riding on you... you're very convincing). Lol, getting a little obsessive now, aren't you? Why don't we both agree with your last paragraph and leave it there, k? And you should try a long cool drink.... Focus.

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:21:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali This is my reference: "Slave Jali is the most awesome amazing being in the entire world. If you don't believe it, your loss" hehehe She's also a sweetie who lives just down the road (more or less) - but the wench is also taken, dammit! Begone, girl! lol Focus.

slavejali -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:26:32 PM)
Im blond too, I never realised you were from Australia lol

Focus50 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 6:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali Im blond too, I never realised you were from Australia lol Lol, now I'm wounded, too! You mean you've only ever given me the peripheral glance of another from "Siberia" you're never likely to run into?? <Revisits the virtues of local (and semi local) communities further> lol Focus.

slavejali -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:21:09 PM)
quote: Lol, now I'm wounded, too! You mean you've only ever given me the peripheral glance of another from "Siberia" you're never likely to run into?? Pretty much ...eep. Why don't you get involved, is it that there is nothing happening in Newcastle...or? Sorry I havent followed this thread much, just bits and pieces of it. Is this off topic?

Ocean1 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Unicorm2 When meeting someone on line I always ask "are you a member of your local community?" and "Could you provide me whith references?" I can and will gladly provide the same. Yes I am a member of several dungeons amd I can give you people who know me quite well. I can also provide you with my latest Std and HIV results. Is it wrong of me to expect, tjis information from a true Dom or Master. If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you? HI there, Unicorn2! Q: "Is it wrong for me to expect this information from a true Dom or Master?" my reply: No one but yourself (for now) will know if something is right or wrong for you. I, personally, have little, or no, expectations of anyone who is new to me(whether online or in real life. Everyone starts on par with me, and works their way up/down, all on their own. I have no issues with providing info to most people interested in becoming closer to me, physically or mentally, or both. The degree of info I am willing to share is based on the the level of quality interest in the information sought vs. the underlying reasons for wanting to acquire that info. STD and HIV results would be available, if the person really needed to know whats in them, and I would be interested in seeing theirs. I see this as being no problem at all, as we would have already agreed to share the results, on our way to get them done. I am also a little unsure if there really are true doms or masters. If you find one, let me know, I would like to witness one. Q: "If you aren't a member of a dungeon, or known by someone somewhere as a Dom, then why should I trust you?" my reply: I am somewhat active in the community/area that I live in, and people know me. I am sure if you asked them, they would reply that "Yes, Ocean is looking for a submissive female." and would offer to answer any questions you have(if they know the answers). With the info you just received by inquiring about me, you are now better informed(than you where before you inquired). Should you trust me? Sure. If I tell you I will be buying you a coffee at our first meet, you better believe you can trust me that I will be buying your coffee for ya ;-) Should you trust me, with anything more than a friendly cup of coffee at Starbucks? NO, Nor I with you. Trust is gained, slowly, on both sides of the coin. I venture to guess that anyone who blindly puts there trust in someone else, is setting themselves to be going through the process of blindly trusting someone else, in the near future(worst case scenario: if they live(mentally/physically) though the previous encounter). Reiterate: Trust is gained/earned. How you attain that trust, or degree of said trust, is totally up to you. Once again there are several ways to instill trust, and it can be different for everyone. These words to you are purely my opinion, Unicorm2. Use the information contained within as you see fit. Ocean.

LordODiscipline -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:23:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 Protest too much (and, too vehemently)? Can't I just be offering an alternate opinion? Like the opinions of many others in this thread, your analogy assumes there's only one "right way". Another analogy is that the wagons are clearly circling yet I'm the solitary indian.... lol <puffs the chest wayyyy out> Yorta get outside more.... Focus. OK - try to focus here and stay with me on this - Actually, the analogy points out that there is more than one way and you are railing people from choosing the one you are afraid of... One might say that your Francophilic xenophobia and isolationistic desire to 'not allow others knowlege of you prior to meeting' is a smoke screen to cover the fear of being exposed for <insert reason here>. I would not - but, then - that is me. And, the fact that you rail others, call them names, and decry anyone who suggests it as a viable method of knowing someone better as "unreal" and "ignorant" through innuendo and suppositional reference states this rather more pointedly clearly for people who would say such. Besides - I get out plenty... people know me in many groups and as individuals... Because they know me -and- I know them (because I 'get out more' than - say - "you"), they would be good references should I ask them to be one for me... See how that works in this entire thing...? A person gets out of your house and meet people and, then would not have to be so afraid about having people vouch for them because then they actually could vouch for them! and one would not have to get upset when people suggest that "references might be a 'good' thing"... Neat, huh? If you do not believe me, I can provide references that can vouch for what I am saying. ~J

Emperor1956 -> RE: References (12/16/2006 7:46:47 PM)
John: I'm not gonna requote you because it would run too long, and you quoted me with some out of contexting which I don't want to perpetuate, but suffice it to say that if you "asked a recognized group" about the individual in question, you might get a GLOWING report because he funds and controls a local B/D/S/M group! If you ask another group you'd get the message he is poison -- they actually took legal action against him. In between, you'd get in between. Your reliance on "organized" B/D/S/M groups to be honest, ethical or even organized is naive. I agree with you regarding references not being all bad or all good, however. E.

Rover -> RE: References (12/16/2006 9:03:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 John: I'm not gonna requote you because it would run too long, and you quoted me with some out of contexting which I don't want to perpetuate, but suffice it to say that if you "asked a recognized group" about the individual in question, you might get a GLOWING report because he funds and controls a local B/D/S/M group! If you ask another group you'd get the message he is poison -- they actually took legal action against him. In between, you'd get in between. Your reliance on "organized" B/D/S/M groups to be honest, ethical or even organized is naive. I agree with you regarding references not being all bad or all good, however. E. I'm including your entire quote so as not to take your comments out of context. I don't understand your continued reliance upon what "might" present a problem to the use of references. You might slip and fall in the shower tomorrow morning. Is it a good reason not to shower? You might contract an STD during sexual intercourse. Is it a good reason to remain celebate? You might contract food poisoning. Is that a good reason not to eat at Taco Bell... errrrr... well, you get my point. References are an additional source of information. Some people wish to utilize that source, others do not. I can come up with plenty of good reasons for the acquisition of more information, no good reason for less. If less information were better, ignorance would be laudable. It simply strains credulity beyond the bounds of believability to make that case. If your point is simply that references, like everything else in life, are not infallible.... well... duh. John

Archer -> RE: References (12/16/2006 11:30:11 PM)
LOLOLOLOLOLOL What a piece of work you are Focus, laughable really. I count at least aa half dozen times it has been said outright plain language that seems to be beyond your ability to read or take in References are not a magic bullet. Yet you want to focus on the minutia of your predjudice against anyone having anything to do with a community, while placing yourself above it all. and in the meantime tell someone else they are thinking they are superiour, LOL What a crock of squeeze. BTW I have an 8 year + relationship that is power dynamic based, for you to tell me I can't grasp is again laughable. References do not however much you may wish it to be mean anyone has the hive mentality another fancifull slight in order to convince yourself that you are superior maybe? The lack of references could mean any number of problems or it could mean nothing, but the lack means Hey there is a reason they don't have them or are unwilling to provide them. That reason has to be given and then evaluated. Yet you are so set in the idea that YOU are so good you don't require them, you refuse to even read the sentances as they are written.I never said or infered it ment they had something to hide, that was your own little paranoia creeping into things. I said it gives me pause and that it requires looking into the reasons they have for not giving them. If the reasons they present are good then no problem move on to the next getting to know you step. However if they get all defensive about it it certainly tells me they lack the confidence to simply answer the simple questions anyone with a brain wants to know.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: References (12/16/2006 11:37:35 PM)
Silly doms...logic is for switches. On the one hand we have the old axiom that the more information, the better. We're always encouraging people to talk to other people and get as much as they can. On the other hand, we have the old axiom that people need to decide what's right for them and stand up for themselves without relying on others. The reference issue somewhat puts these two ideas at odds with eachother- though that's obviously not necessarily the case. I am on the side that references fall too far into the "letting other people decide things for me" category and for personal ickiness feelings don't do the reference thing- despite being very public and being able to have at least a handful of real time references in several states in the US and in Ireland at this point in time. But one cannot deny that getting as much information about someone as you can is a good thing to endeavor and that our friends opinions will certainly reflect and influence our own and there's nothing necessarily bad about that. I'd feel even worse for males and specially male subs if the reference issue became hard core and expected. No way would I have met either of my partners if they felt they needed references to make dates with me first because they didn't have any- I was their first contact.

Archer -> RE: References (12/16/2006 11:48:53 PM)
And someone saying they are new would of course be a perfectly acceptable reason for not having any lifestyle references. Someone who had only been private and they tell me flat out their previous partner will not be a good reference because the breakup was bad. OK I'll buy that reason as well. But again it goes back to the why they don't have them. I might take any well thought out reason for not having them and say fine lets proceed, but if they have no reference and nothing beyond I just don't want to provide them, then likely as not I'll say "OK nice chatting with you have a nice day." Will I possibly miss someone worthwhile? Maybe but meanwhile I'll also flush out a few dozen pretenders as well. As others have said before they are one of many tools for checking up/ deciding who is worth spending time and effort getting to know. To use them as the only tool would be foolish to ignore the value of them entirely is equally foolish.

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