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RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 4:26:03 AM

LaTigresse

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I am guessing that is supposed to be like, shouting in type?

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 21

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 4:28:15 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I am guessing that is supposed to be like, shouting in type?

lol Is it that big? I usually use a mozilla browser, but in order to use the speech bubble, I have to use IE, and for some reason, IE has really small type that I can barely read, so I enlarged it. I guess I can edit and try to shrink it.

Edited to add: Its been shrunked. :)

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 12/17/2006 4:31:52 AM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 22

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 4:40:26 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Ahhhhhh, that explains it all. Aren't computers just wonderful. And thank you for taking my words in the spirit of intent.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 23

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 4:48:52 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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Nice post though I'm not sure the subject is worth the effort of such philosophical discourse but hmmm....maybe it is. For me you have sunk the juvenile idea of submission is a gift once and for all and towards the end implied such a notion should be replaced with an adult relationship cut clean of all manipulation the giving of a gift implies and very often is. Though I doubt the people who think in terms of 'submissiom is a gift' think of themselves as being manipulative. Some very smart woment can't see the inherent manipulation involved in the 'giving' of this 'gift'. I should know, I was once manipulated by one.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 24

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 5:08:32 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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Meat, after several months of reading your posts I have come to understand a small amount of your point of view based upon your comments about past relationships and what you now want in your life. Therefor your point of view on this topic makes complete sense and is correct for you.

I also understand, knowing women as I do, that many women use this issue as a manipulative tool, been there done that got the scars to remind myself.

I also see it in the context of being attracted to women that are by nature and all appearance very dominant. However, in a relationship with alot of trust, can sometimes open up and become quite submissive to their partner. In a certain context of how the word submission CAN be used it could be thought of as a gift. She is submissive to one person, not everyone and maybe no one in any relationship prior. However that one person gained her trust and respect therefor she felt safe to give or gift them her submission. Granted that one sentence could spark a whole debate.......please don't, it is a dead horse.

In addition we have those that say they are "naturally" submissive. Personally this is a term that rather alarms me for those that say it. This is generally not a person I find attractive myself because I just see it as "here, I am naturally submissive and NEED someone to dominate me" aka doormat. And yeah, I know that statement could also be taken as incindiary.......please don't, I am just stating my own opinion. As in, for me and my relationship interests.

Another thing I think helps create this drama is that we have those that consider submission more a mental/emotional state and part of a relationship and then there are those that are viewing it from a scene or sensation play point of view. Two very different parts of the whole BDSM D/s blanket.

Of course these are my own thoughts and rambling points of view based upon all the senseless bickering I keep reading.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 25

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:03:16 AM

catfood

Posts: 52
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: new jersey
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the "submission is a gift" vs. "submission is NOT a gift" argument is making my eyes bleed. i think the only thing we can absolutely agree to do is disagree. fair enough...impressive depth of analysis by all contributors, with a liberal sprinkling of 10 cent words.

to steal a quote and append it with my own twist..."opinions are like assholes; everybody has one, some are smellier than others."

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constitutionally incapable of using the shift key...

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 26

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:08:31 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

quote:

The thread you speak of I left after page one or two. I see too many people stubbornly holding their ground with a very narrow view. They have no interest in even beginning to acknowledge that while they may be right for them, their point of view is not right or the best one for everyone else. The endless battles just serve to ridicule their opinion and themselves in my eyes.

tigress thank you for you post, it speaks to the "rocks hitting rocks " issue i was speaking about in my post better then i could express it

quote:

Personally I enjoy reading well written thoughts on a subject from a perspective I have never considered, perhaps ask some questions, toss out my own thoughts. And then, give it some thought. Sometimes my perspective changes, I learn something, I grow. Sometimes I just end up agreeing to disagree.

in the spirit of considering other perspectives i would like to toss out somthing...the use of the word manipulation in your second post...the prevent connotation on these boards is that being manipulative makes one intrinsically bad... but i do always see it that way.

the folks i see using the submission is a gift are typically newer folk, in fact i dont know any one who has even a few years in the life using the term..... i am guessing it is because of exposure to these debates ....but who knows.

my thoughts are that when you are new, things look scary, transparency is scary, obedience, autonomy, punishment, accountability ect...and that does not even begin to address the physical stuff of leather masks, knives, chains ect...anyway going in to this scary world folks need to have something to stabilize them, something to help them feel as though they are in control, this is what others call manipulation, because one person is attempting to control a situation by leveraging the little bit of control he or she feels like they have.

i know you said you have scars from being manipulated, and that i inferred to mean you were manipulated with the who "my submission is a gift" thing and i was wondering, if you look back can you say that person had the intent to hurt you, or did they use it as leverage, a tool of self preservation?

for me i see it as a tool of self preservation and although it maybe manipulative so is just about every thing we do every day...we attempt to move things in a way that suits us, or as Websters says:To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.

quote:

On something as personal as submission, after all how I view it only matters to the person that is submissive to me, I refuse to get into a battle of words and meanings that has no worthwhile outcome. If I see a poster that I have come to respect interject I may read or respond but for the most part I would just avoid it. More often than not I see such inflammatory threads as gages of the contributors temperament and personality. Those that battle the most obstinately, treating those that disagree with them as idiots, will generally be someone I would not wish to spend time with in person.

i totally agree and i dont often jump into these things for the same reason....lol....but you post was interesting to me and i felt i wanted to understand more...especially when you said you had scars....because as i say i inferred it was from some one manipulating you and i wanted to understand how that could happen a little better....and because it is 4 am here and my brain goes funny at this hour.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 12/17/2006 6:41:57 AM >

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 27

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:27:48 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I have never gotten deeply into the fray over submission as a gift or not a gift. I posted once on another thread that I felt it was and had a dozen people pile on me for my arrogance, and was ridiculed for viewing my submission that way. I did not respond to that. I left the thread and never thought about it much after that... why did I react that way instead of arguing the point? They are not me, I do not care if they viewed their universe differently than I do, and their ridiculing me showed more about them then it did about me.

My Daddy does not view submission as a gift, he does not ridicule me for thinking it is so, but I think his dominance is a gift too, so are many other things. We do not have to agree about this, and the world still turns on its axis, it certainly is nothing to get excited over.

I think perhaps the term "gift" rankles some because of the implications of the word. Many submissives feel as though they have been treated as less, that their submission is not respected, and that their submissiveness makes them vunerable. To be treated as a thing of less value than a dominant person is a sad place to be, so I think this gift business may have found root because of this. If submission is a gift it is something of value, if it is something of value it should be treated with respect, and if it is due respect then the person that possesses the submissiveness should be careful not to cast pearls before swine...

Now I am not one to sell myself short most of the time, so my use of the word gift is more broad than that and has a different motivation. I am compassionate, I try to be kind, I take up for the underdog, I have half a brain according to some, and I consider all these attributes gifts that I can share or not share with others because I am the one that possesses them. If I submit to someone I am sharing that gift with them, I am giving it to them on a level too.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 28

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:34:48 AM

Serenityy

Posts: 97
Status: offline

A very well thought out post Noah.

I look at the word gift in a couple different ways; one being that it is something acquired without compensation; and the other being something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

In the first definition, my partner can acquire this by means of trust, loyalty, love, actions, etc ( ie; he earns my submission ). In the second, I can give to my partner ( ie; I give him my submission ).

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 29

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:36:27 AM

bandit25

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Joined: 6/18/2005
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To me, submission is...that's all. I am submissive to One and no one else. Is it a gift? Maybe and maybe not. It just is. I don't use my submission to manipulate him and he knows that. I doubt that he views it as a "gift" per se, but he values me and that's what matters to us.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 30

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:39:23 AM

crouchingtigress

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From: Maui
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gypsygrl: great well thought out post....i fully agree with what you said about "gift" is metaphor...one thing i wonder if you have considered and care to address is the reapporpration of words specifically for this life style.

the trend of re-appropriating words seems to me a pretty cool one. a word has one (usually negative) meaning but then its community reclaims that word , uses it in a new way, and takes the power out of it...the most visible word in society is the n word which i can not bring my self to say because there is still so much healing around that word we have yet to do.

but another example is the word cunt, which i now think is a lovely word, however it was not always that way. my love for the word came long before my involvement in D/s ...it was back when i read the book, Cunt, and realized that we are the ones that empower words to mean the things that they do...and that in that vein we can take the power back out of them too.

in our lifestyle we have reappropriated many words for erotic and descriptive value.

the most obvious of these being master and slave... this might get me flamed but no one here is really a slave...and i think we all know that, but we have reappropriated the word to give a voice to the feelings we have that on many levels are similar to the feelings real slaves have....only from the consensual POV, which some would argue devalues the perspective entirery....but i am not going to go into all that..lol

i think my submission is a Gift thing is another case of the same trend, reapporpration a word from society that is specifically tailored to our lifestyle, our community.. and thus i think when i hear it, i give it the same weight that i give folks who use the word slave or Master, a word that gives voice to feelings and life choices but not something i take at all litterally....as you say a metaphor

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 31

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:39:57 AM

KatyLied

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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~quick reply~

If submission is a gift, there are certainly many who give their gift over and over again to many ones. What is the value in a gift that is given so lightly?

The entire gift discussion is like many other incendiary topics around here (sub vs slave, twue master, etc). If nothing else, it ranks high in amusement value, especially when posters who take themselves too seriously start getting bothered by it.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 32

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:44:37 AM

Serenityy

Posts: 97
Status: offline

quote:

If submission is a gift, there are certainly many who give their gift over and over again to many ones. What is the value in a gift that is given so lightly?

For those who are only tops/bottoms, the value is quite high. I think that what many forget is that not everyone is lifestyle orientated; for them, the giving over and over again is just as significant as it is for the one who only does so once with a single partner.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 33

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 6:57:18 AM

KatyLied

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

For those who are only tops/bottoms, the value is quite high. I think that what many forget is that not everyone is lifestyle orientated; for them, the giving over and over again is just as significant as it is for the one who only does so once with a single partner.

Yep, we could start another thread on the differences between Top/bottom and Dom/sub.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Serenityy)

Post #: 34

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:00:04 AM

Serenityy

Posts: 97
Status: offline

quote:

Yep, we could start another thread on the differences between Top/bottom and Dom/sub.

Yes we could indeed. The question is though, would it stay on the discussion side, or turn into another 'bash' fest?

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 35

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:01:16 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

~quick reply~

If submission is a gift, there are certainly many who give their gift over and over again to many ones. What is the value in a gift that is given so lightly?

The entire gift discussion is like many other incendiary topics around here (sub vs slave, twue master, etc). If nothing else, it ranks high in amusement value, especially when posters who take themselves too seriously start getting bothered by it.

I was taught love is a gift, it is a gift I give as often as I can, and it is not devalued as a result. In fact the more one gives of certain ephemeral things, the more they have to offer in many cases. I would not say that just because someone has had lots of sex or lots of D/s encounters that this cheapens them or their gifts intrinsically.

I grew up hearing this cliche "Will you respect me in the morning?" I changed that to "Will I respect myself in the morning".... you see the latter is much more important to me than the former.... I have not had many dominants, and I have never been collared, but just because someone has been does not make them less or their submissiveness of their dominance less...

But I do not take other people's views on this seriously at all, people define their world as they see fit.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 36

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:05:04 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Tigress, the manipulation issue is hard for me to explain as it is a headgame that is played. Usually by an attention whore. Please forgive the crude way of stating it but it's the best way I can. Women are very clever in the headgame arena, however I have seen this particular game played by a certain young italian male also. They want to be submissive but only as long as it feeds their fun, as soon as any work is involved they withdraw their submission. They remind me of a yappy little poodle, jumping up and down, pay attention to me, pay attention to my needs and neurosis, feed me, pet me, spank me, etc etc etc.....I will kiss your feet (but only because I get off on that) Just don't dare demand I sit quiet and behave. OMG, you are not a "true" dominant because you are no longer feeding my kink/issues but demanding something for yourself that I don't like/want. Bam, submission withdrawn.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 37

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:06:24 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

~quick reply~

If submission is a gift, there are certainly many who give their gift over and over again to many ones. What is the value in a gift that is given so lightly?

The entire gift discussion is like many other incendiary topics around here (sub vs slave, twue master, etc). If nothing else, it ranks high in amusement value, especially when posters who take themselves too seriously start getting bothered by it.

Nooooooooooo kidding!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 38

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:11:08 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

quote:

many who give their gift over and over again to many ones. What is the value in a gift that is given so lightly?

my thought on that Katy is that nothing on this earth has intrinsic value...gold, water, Lamborghini's, Brahman cows, The only value anything has is the value the giver gives it and the value the receiver gives it.

there are folks "giving" over and over as you say, but how can we possibly assign a value on their gift it if we are not them?...

i think your question reflections a societal value that says, when a woman has many pairings, she is not as valuable as the woman who only has a few long lasting pairings.

i am not sure i agree, if a person made cookies and gave them to different people every day, it would not decrease her value, in act it would increase it, why then is giving her submission to many different dominants or her sex for that matter any different?

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to Serenityy)

Post #: 39

RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. - 12/17/2006 7:17:14 AM

Serenityy

Posts: 97
Status: offline

quote:

I was taught love is a gift, it is a gift I give as often as I can, and it is not devalued as a result. In fact the more one gives of certain ephemeral things, the more they have to offer in many cases.

Very eloquently stated.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

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