RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (Full Version)

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ExSteelAgain -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 5:07:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

This use of the word may stick in your craw for some reason, but honest to gosh this is how educated people use the word.

In 1751, Mongol Alton Khan gave his submission to the Ming Dynasty and the Ming Dynasty titled the local leaders accordingly.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/cityguides/tibet.htm

But times were changing. Many Irish chieftains had submitted to the English throne. In March 1576 The O'Malley (her father had by this time died) was summoned and gave his submission in Galway to Sir Henry Sidney. He kept his promises and in the next year did not join in the rebellion.
http://www.greenwoodstudio.org/amnwtheplay/granuaile.htm


My problem there is that your definition of educated people may not be mine. I find the way the examples you quoted are written to be archaic and imprecise.

The passages would be clearer to modern, English speaking people if they read, “He SUBMITTED to Dinky Winky, Dipsy, LaLa and Po.”

I think a hip hopper performing live and throwing stream of consciousness rhymes is more of a grammatically correct, “educated” person than some of the pedantic academics using English from The Middle Ages that becomes so convoluted it appears it is their second language.



marieToo -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 5:19:49 AM)

I yanked this out because my point was straying away from "giving" in dom/sub relationships specifically. 



SusanofO -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 6:22:14 AM)

I see what you are saying, ExSteel, but personally, I think it's an okay definition. It's just one more way (of the many myriad ways) the word "submission" (let alone the word "gift") could be defined. I think that was his point, really.

- Susan



catize -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 6:26:25 AM)

quote:

In what ways is it helpful to conceive of submission as a gift? 



Although I don’t stick a bow on my head and yell, “Git yer red hot subbie here!’, the idea of submission as gift lends an air of appreciation for the fact one has found another person who is willing to do the dominant’s bidding.  I assume the phrase was coined to remind those who need reminding that it behooves us all to admire what each person contributes to the relationship.

quote:

   In what ways is it unhelpful to conceive of submission as a gift?



Like other clichés, it becomes unhelpful when it is repeated only because it sounds good.    



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 3:45:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point.

When someone enters into a relationship they expect to get something out of it which is a pretty rational way to approach a relationship. What someone gets out of it might vary from security to just damn good sex or a multitude of things. You see it on many sub's profiles, the wording to the effect 'I'll only give my gift of submission to a dom that is worthy' or some other permutation of the same idea. Implicite in that notion is the thought that the sub will get something back for her 'gift' ie. someone who will hold her in esteem or maybe he is worthy if he treats her like a slut, I don't know, this is a pervs forum but it ain't something for nothing. Well giving a gift in hope of getting something in return ain't a gift in my book. It all smacks of a female ape showing a male ape her arse with the proviso, beat your chest hard enough and scare the other 'he' apes away, bring me bananas and you can have a piece of this gift 'my arse' I'm baring to you. Don't do this for me and I turn my arse the other way. Implicite in this giving of a 'gift' is the threat that it will be taken away. It's a form of control.


It seems in a general way that a lot of things in life boil down to some sort of economic model, for you. Maybe somebody else encounters life as theatre in a really findamental way, on a really primary level, and that preconception informs all ofhis perceptions. Maybe somebody else sees everything as a garden and a whole set of ecological metaphors inform his view of the world (weeds, manure, rain, whatever) instead of economic ones. I mean economic in a very broad sense.

You're entitled to your view, whatever it is, whether or not I've characterized it reasonably. It must work for you to some degree on some levels.

I wonder if much in your life is less than exactly as you'd want it to be? My life isn't flawless. That's for sure. I wonder whether abadoning the economic preconception, even in a careful, experimental way, might reveal something of interest, the view of which has lately been blocked. I suspect that that experiment, however tentative and careful, would require a certain kind of bold commitment in order to bear fruit (or get to the last act, or hit paydirt, or whatever mataphor anyone prefers.)

One guy looks at a swamp and see's a mess that needs draining before he can build on it and thereby serve humanity. Another sees a wetland teeming with life, deserving to be undisturbed and protected as part of mankind's natural legacy. You and I can probably see it either way.

I think the pity is when a person get's so attached to his habitual preconceptions that they start to operate before the visual image even get's to the brain, so to speak, the point where he believes he (or she) can decide in advance what he's gonna see even before he opens his eyes.

I'm not describing you this way Meat. I sure don't know enough about you. Reflecting on your post, in the context of lots of your other posts (I never skip over your posts in a thread I'm reading) did bring these thoughts to mind. That's all I'm just sayin.

quote:

Beware of subs bearing gifts.


I dunno. I've been around a while and so far they just don't scare me.



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 4:01:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

This use of the word may stick in your craw for some reason, but honest to gosh this is how educated people use the word.

In 1751, Mongol Alton Khan gave his submission to the Ming Dynasty and the Ming Dynasty titled the local leaders accordingly.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/cityguides/tibet.htm

But times were changing. Many Irish chieftains had submitted to the English throne. In March 1576 The O'Malley (her father had by this time died) was summoned and gave his submission in Galway to Sir Henry Sidney. He kept his promises and in the next year did not join in the rebellion.
http://www.greenwoodstudio.org/amnwtheplay/granuaile.htm


My problem there is that your definition of educated people may not be mine. I find the way the examples you quoted are written to be archaic and imprecise.

The passages would be clearer to modern, English speaking people if they read, “He SUBMITTED to Dinky Winky, Dipsy, LaLa and Po.”

I think a hip hopper performing live and throwing stream of consciousness rhymes is more of a grammatically correct, “educated” person than some of the pedantic academics using English from The Middle Ages that becomes so convoluted it appears it is their second language.



That's all fine.

I like a lot of poets (hip hop and otherwise) better than a lot of academic writers too.

The point being illustrated was that educated people--in the very basic sense of people who have been to a good deal of school (not to suggest that this is better or worse than not going to school but only that it tends to acquaint them with conventional usage) use the expression "Gave his/her/their submission" When they do, other people like you and I understand them just fine whether or not we find that construction inferior to some other possibilities. In short, that it is not a prima facie instance of wacky and wrong stringing together of words in English.

It was given in support of the other very strong pieces of evidence: that this particular sense of of the word submission is it's primary sense in English, from a lexicographical point of view.

Thanks for your view, Steel.



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 4:07:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I yanked this out because my point was straying away from "giving" in dom/sub relationships specifically. 


I have some of my staff at work on this and their preliminary results suggest strongly that you have more deleted posts in my threads than any other CM denizen.

Personally I just don't what to make of that. The staff in question, though--in between their bra-and-panty pillow fights and turns on the Catherine Wheel, have expressed their belief that it means you're sweet on me.

But I mean they're just dumb subbies, right?

At least I got to read that complimentary post in the other thread before you pulled it.

Have an excruciating day, marie.



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 4:09:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I see what you are saying, ExSteel, but personally, I think it's an okay definition. It's just one more way (of the many myriad ways) the word "submission" (let alone the word "gift") could be defined. I think that was his point, really.

- Susan


Bingo.

But really, Susan... doesn't "myriad" entail "many"?



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 4:11:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

In what ways is it helpful to conceive of submission as a gift? 



Although I don’t stick a bow on my head and yell, “Git yer red hot subbie here!’, the idea of submission as gift lends an air of appreciation for the fact one has found another person who is willing to do the dominant’s bidding.  I assume the phrase was coined to remind those who need reminding that it behooves us all to admire what each person contributes to the relationship.

quote:

   In what ways is it unhelpful to conceive of submission as a gift?



Like other clichés, it becomes unhelpful when it is repeated only because it sounds good.    



How 'bout if it get's repeated because it's less filling?

Thanks for weighing in, catize.



marieToo -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 5:57:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I yanked this out because my point was straying away from "giving" in dom/sub relationships specifically. 



Personally I just don't what to make of that. The staff in question, though--in between their bra-and-panty pillow fights and turns on the Catherine Wheel, have expressed their belief that it means you're sweet on me.


It's all about those thumb-tack chip cookies you gift me with every now and again--they hurt-so-good going down. 

quote:

But I mean they're just dumb subbies, right?


Nah, they're not dumb.  It's just that some of them are in over their heads. 

quote:

At least I got to read that complimentary post in the other thread before you pulled it.


I hope you enjoyed it.  I had no reason to leave it there for anyone else.


quote:

Have an excruciating day, marie.



Consider it done.




SusanofO -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 6:15:34 PM)

Noah: Well of course you're right. But, you know how some people are. They say things like: "I really, really mean that." Just so you won't think you didn't, or are half-decided about it or somethiong. Plus, you never can be too careful with Dominants, you know. They will pounce on a perceived weakness and just eat you up, spit you out like a bad tooth, and then maybe have their wolf friends finish you off for dessert. It's bad.

Yes, I am joking. And I don't mean you (I really don't. You are a "Teddy Bear"). I can just sometimes over-qualify my statements. I grew up in a family where "imprecise language" got pounced upon a little, sometimes. Mom was a teacher. Maybe that was it.

- Susan 



CelticPrince -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 6:28:43 PM)

Phew,

Congrats on the longest OP I have come across in a while.

I believe your last comments on revew profiles carefully works well, as that is what I do when responding to any notes of a possible connection.

CP



catize -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/18/2006 6:37:53 PM)

quote:

Thanks for weighing in, catize.   


You are welcome.........consider it a no-strings gift.  (grins)



Noah -> RE: What I take away from the "Gift" dispute. (12/19/2006 4:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
You are welcome.........consider it a no-strings gift.  (grins)

Wow. That's the real, twue kind, right?



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