Hot on pot! (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 1:31:06 AM)

Marijuana is now the biggest cash crop grown in the US. Doesn't this drop a hint to the politicians that legalisation is the only rational option?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1975161,00.html




unavailable -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 1:46:58 AM)

Well it appears that this nation is unrelentingly bass ackwards as it stands... this doest surprise Me that its not something which has been legalized as of yet.... 




Fitznicely -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 2:25:15 AM)

Legalisation and regulation is the only realistic way of beating the problem.

Look back 100 years...every drug that's illegal now was freely available over the counter....and society didn't come to an end. Well, Ok, it nearly did, but that was Germany's fault, not the drugs specifically.....




patina -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 2:27:14 AM)

You would think they would at least want the money off the taxes they would get if it was legal.  Less crime maybe too.  Oh well what do you expect from govt. men.


poly=group
                                                             ==== politicians
ticks=blood suckers


Patina




Level -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 2:50:21 AM)

If I remember correctly, 1 acre of hemp would produce the same amount of paper-making pulp as 4 acres of trees, and could be harvested yearly.
 
I would also much rather ride in a car being driven by someone smoking a joint, than drinking.
 
Legalize.




thompsonx -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 7:54:40 AM)

I once read that all of the major tobacco companies had filed for trademarks for all the popular types of the herb....Acapulco Gold, Panama Red, DaKine,...etc. in anticipation of legalisation.  Does anyone have any hard data on this?
thompson




mistoferin -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 8:33:03 AM)

Well I have no doubt that it is indeed the largest cash crop. I don't think that is necessarily a new thing. I question the accuracy of the figures presented though. When estimating quantity and value of marijuana by government or police agencies those figures are usually way off the mark....generally on the far high side to get stronger convictions. For instance, if they find a field of marijuana...the quantity and value are often assessed by pulling the plants and weighing them in their fresh state, stems, roots, dirt and all. So if the plant comes out to weigh 2 lbs, that is the figure that gets recorded....when in actuality, that same plant may only have a yield of a few ounces of end "product". I'm unfamiliar with the group that did the study and what their process is for determining the figures.




UtopianRanger -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 8:41:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unavailable

Well it appears that this nation is unrelentingly bass ackwards as it stands... this doest surprise Me that its not something which has been legalized as of yet.... 


Ah....reverberation from the Emerald triangle. I'd wager it has a lot to do with the ruling class not wanting to see the segment of utopian pot smokers grow any bigger than it already is. ; }


JMHO


- R





darchChylde -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:03:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I once read that all of the major tobacco companies had filed for trademarks for all the popular types of the herb....Acapulco Gold, Panama Red, DaKine,...etc. in anticipation of legalisation.  Does anyone have any hard data on this?
thompson


no hard data, but i seem to remember that a few years ago Marlboro was banned in Canada, due to officials finding a Phillip Morris owned warehouse stocked with marijuana in preperation for american legalization




Mercnbeth -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:25:36 AM)

If pot could be an industry it would be legal, the problem is it can't.

Prohibition of alcohol didn't work because the underground economy was too strong supplying illegal beverages. It made business sense to legalize and tax. Contrary to myth, 'bathtub gin' wasn't easy to make, and home made alcoholic beverages were very poor quality. Who had the desire, time, space, or the used sherry cask to produce Scotch? If anyone has ever visited a brewery, note that they give you a tour of the facility before allowing you in the tasting room where, back in the old days it was an 'open bar'. Why? Drinking beer was harder after having the smell the fermentation process. Imagine having that going on in you spare bedroom.

But 'Demon Marijuana' of good quality can be grown VERY easily. How are you going to tax and legislate something so easy to produce on your own? Maybe if the 'lazy' side effect of using pot enters into the equation, but put a seed in dirt, buy a grow light, and wait doesn't take a big effort. Or go outside and even the most prolific smoker would find it easy to grow a supply to carry them through the year with even the shortest growing season. Besides - this is a weed! It grows like one.

Pot is 'semi-legal' here in CA. For a small fee you can go to an almost legitimate but still licensed doctor and get an annual prescription. With the prescription in hand you visit clinics where you can pick and choose your price and preference. I don't think it will ever get more legal than that.

This is a pragmatic issue. You can't legislate and tax a substance that individuals can produce on their own. Therefore the only money to be made from it, it by keeping it illegal and producing municipality income through fines and litigation.

In truth the dollar figure reported it most likely low.




philosophy -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:32:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
This is a pragmatic issue. You can't legislate and tax a substance that individuals can produce on their own. Therefore the only money to be made from it, it by keeping it illegal and producing municipality income through fines and litigation.


.......how come though Merc, the above argument isn't applied to beer or wine? Both alcoholic beverages can be made at home, often to a high quality. In the UK at least, the law allows this for personal consumption, but if sold the stuff attracts taxation. It is the act of commerce that is taxed, not the act of production.
Seems to me the main reason marijuana is illegal is because, if legalised, it would impact the profitability of producers of alcoholic beverages....and that's some strong lobbying money right there.......




farglebargle -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:36:44 AM)

Yeah, but you can't distill liquor.

It's about limiting your ability to live outside the taxable economy.

If you can just grow it and sell it, how do they tax it?

If you can just distill it and sell it, how do they tax it?





Missokyst -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:38:51 AM)

LOL... I can see it now, driving down Hwy 80, doing 30 mph.. then 80.. ooops too fast 65, 50, 40.. Oops too slow, 70..
I wonder if there is something the rest of us can take to alleviate the stress of being late?
Kyst


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I would also much rather ride in a car being driven by someone smoking a joint, than drinking.
 
Legalize.




farglebargle -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:43:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

LOL... I can see it now, driving down Hwy 80, doing 30 mph.. then 80.. ooops too fast 65, 50, 40.. Oops too slow, 70..
I wonder if there is something the rest of us can take to alleviate the stress of being late?
Kyst


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I would also much rather ride in a car being driven by someone smoking a joint, than drinking.

Legalize.


quote:

LOL... I can see it now, driving down Hwy 80, doing 30 mph.. then 80.. ooops too fast 65, 50, 40.. Oops too slow, 70..
I wonder if there is something the rest of us can take to alleviate the stress of being late?
Kyst



More like put on the Cruise Control and a show into the CD player, enjoy your coffee and the ride.

Studies are showing that pot smokers are SAFER Drivers...

Leadbelly did a song about it back for the WPA IIRC...



Relax your mind
Relax your mind
Ooh, it�ll make you live a great long time
Sometimes you�ve got to relax your mind.
When the light turns green
Ooh push down on your gasoline
One time you�ve got to relax your mind.
When the light turns red
Ooh, shove your breaks down to the bed,
One time you�ve got to relax your mind.

Relax your mind,
Relax your mind,
Oh it�ll make you feel so fine some times,
Sometimes you�ve got to relax your mind.

When you�re driving in your automobile,
Ooh, keep your eyes down through that windshield.
That�s the time you�ve got to relax your mind.

Once there was a man
Crossing the railroad track,
Ooh boy, and he forgot to relax
That was one time he should have relaxed his mind.

Relax your mind,
Relax your mind,
Ooh it�ll make you feel just as fine as wine,
Sometime you�ve got to relax your mind.

Relax now

Relax your mind,
Relax your mind,
Ooh, it�ll make you live a great long time.
Sometime you�ve got to relax your mind.






Mercnbeth -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:46:46 AM)

quote:

.......how come though Merc, the above argument isn't applied to beer or wine? Both alcoholic beverages can be made at home, often to a high quality. In the UK at least, the law allows this for personal consumption, but if sold the stuff attracts taxation. It is the act of commerce that is taxed, not the act of production.
Seems to me the main reason marijuana is illegal is because, if legalized, it would impact the profitability of producers of alcoholic beverages....and that's some strong lobbying money right there.......


philo,
You can brew beer and make wine in the US. I won't speak for every state, but personal production for consumption is permitted. In CA there are wineries that will take your home produced grapes, ferment, and bottle them for you too.

A six pack of beer can be had for less than $5.00. The best import is under $10. Table wine prices are similar. Would I consider doing better in my house? As a hobby maybe, but for normal consumption to replace the current source?  I don't believe so. I remember back in college days, the idea of having my own keg and cooler was a good idea. When I had to ability to do so, the shelf life, and space requirement were factors for never going through with it. That was just to have a keg. To brew the product and getting it 'right' would take even longer. Hell I remember spending a summer trying to get the formula right for the perfect "Long Island Iced Tea". I got it by the end of the summer but by then was too drunk to write it down.

I'll agree that the alcohol lobby would be at the forefront against legalization because it would have an impact on their sales. However, from a government standpoint, it wouldn't matter. If both were taxed, assuming that pot would be taxed more heavily, there would be an increase in revenue. IF you could control it's distribution. I don't believe they can, so I don't believe, Federally, it will ever be legalized. Decriminalized, perhaps, but never legal, packaged, distributed, and taxed similarly to alcohol or tobacco products.

Edited to add:
Level's comment regarding DUI type enforcement also comes into play. To my knowledge there is no quick, simple, roadside test for Marijuana as there is for alcohol. I also believe that marijuana is in the system for a long time. I seem to recall that you can text someone's hair and determine if the person used pot within the last 30 days. I don't know if the time/day of last use is as accurate as a road side Breathalyzer.

If I'm right, and I'm really not sure regarding a quick, cheap test; lack of easy enforcement for DUI is another factor.




farglebargle -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:49:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

.......how come though Merc, the above argument isn't applied to beer or wine? Both alcoholic beverages can be made at home, often to a high quality. In the UK at least, the law allows this for personal consumption, but if sold the stuff attracts taxation. It is the act of commerce that is taxed, not the act of production.
Seems to me the main reason marijuana is illegal is because, if legalized, it would impact the profitability of producers of alcoholic beverages....and that's some strong lobbying money right there.......


philo,
You can brew beer and make wine in the US. I won't speak for every state, but personal production for consumption is permitted. In CA there are wineries that will take your home produced grapes, ferment, and bottle them for you too.

A six pack of beer can be had for less than $5.00. The best import is under $10. Table wine prices are similar. Would I consider doing better in my house? As a hobby maybe, but for normal consumption to replace the current source? I don't believe so. I remember back in college days, the idea of having my own keg and cooler was a good idea. When I had to ability to do so, the shelf life, and space requirement were factors for never going through with it. That was just to have a keg. To brew the product and getting it 'right' would take even longer. Hell I remember spending a summer trying to get the formula right for the perfect "Long Island Iced Tea". I got it by the end of the summer but by then was too drunk to write it down.

I'll agree that the alcohol lobby would be at the forefront against legalization because it would have an impact on their sales. However, from a government standpoint, it wouldn't matter. If both were taxed, assuming that pot would be taxed more heavily, there would be an increase in revenue. IF you could control it's distribution. I don't believe they can, so I don't believe, Federally, it will ever be legalized. Decriminalized, perhaps, but never legal, packaged, distributed, and taxed similarly to alcohol or tobacco products.


I wonder exactly why, if prohibition required an amendment, you're prevented from doing, for non-commercial home-use anything you want to...






MsBearlee -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 9:56:24 AM)

As an award wining beer brewer (really!  My organic raspberry ale came in first at the club I belonged to!  LOL)…I can say that, because the dark ales I prefer often cost more than $10 a six pack… I preferred to brew my own.
 
And…you CAN distill liquor as far as I know (I know those who do), but the quantity is limited to personal consumption…like beer & wine.
 
B




thompsonx -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 10:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

As an award wining beer brewer (really!  My organic raspberry ale came in first at the club I belonged to!  LOL)…I can say that, because the dark ales I prefer often cost more than $10 a six pack… I preferred to brew my own.
 
And…you CAN distill liquor as far as I know (I know those who do), but the quantity is limited to personal consumption…like beer & wine.
 
B


MsBearlee:
I agree...I make a pretty good ale myself but my attempts at wine leave more than a little to be desired. 
As for making distilled spirits the federal law restricts that to men only, and you are required to get a license and are limited in the quantity you may produce.
thompson




Mercnbeth -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 10:14:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
This is a pragmatic issue. You can't legislate and tax a substance that individuals can produce on their own. Therefore the only money to be made from it, it by keeping it illegal and producing municipality income through fines and litigation.


...Seems to me the main reason marijuana is illegal is because, if legalised, it would impact the profitability of producers of alcoholic beverages....and that's some strong lobbying money right there.......


hemp prohibition goes back a ways.....consider the actions of Harry J. Anslinger, director of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics in 1937, who read into U.S. Congressional testimony(without objection) stories about "coloreds" with big lips, luring white women with jazz music and marijuana.  Virtually all timber, paper and large newspaper holding companies--stood to lose billions of dollars and perhaps go bankrupt if hemp wasn't outlawed.  William Hearst knew it and did much to fuel negative attitudes towards marijuana/hemp in his publications.
 
Coincidentally, in 1937, DuPont had just patented the process for making plastics from oil and coal, as well as a new sulfate/sulfite process for making paper from wood pulp.  According to DuPont's own historians, these processes accounted for 80% of all of the company's railroad carloadings over the next 60 years.
 
it is this slave's opinion that the alcohol companies are the least of those worried, it is the shareholders of pharmeceutical companies & the companies that use the dirtiest, most environmentally abusive ways to make energy and products(by using trees, for example), the companies that proclaim they "protect and serve" that incarcerate and fine-collect from decent folk who aren't hurting themselves or anyone else for that matter and let's not forget all those self-righteous folks who have no problem denying someone else access to medicine just because it doesn't work for them personally.
 
The Emporer Wears No Clothes is a great source of information on the subject.  Jack Herer's $100,000 challenge to the world to prove him wrong:

quote:

If all fossil fuels and their derivatives, as well as trees for paper and construction were banned in order to save the planet, reverse the greenhouse effect and stop deforestation; then there is only one known annually renewable natural resource that is capable of providing the overall majority of the world's paper and textiles; meet all of the world's transportation, industrial and home energy needs, while simultaneously reducing polution, rebuilding the soil and cleaning the atmosphere at the same time...and that substance is--the same one that did it all before---Cannabis/Hemp--Marijuana.
http://www.jackherer.com/




thompsonx -> RE: Hot on pot! (12/19/2006 10:44:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

.......how come though Merc, the above argument isn't applied to beer or wine? Both alcoholic beverages can be made at home, often to a high quality. In the UK at least, the law allows this for personal consumption, but if sold the stuff attracts taxation. It is the act of commerce that is taxed, not the act of production.
Seems to me the main reason marijuana is illegal is because, if legalized, it would impact the profitability of producers of alcoholic beverages....and that's some strong lobbying money right there.......


philo,
You can brew beer and make wine in the US. I won't speak for every state, but personal production for consumption is permitted. In CA there are wineries that will take your home produced grapes, ferment, and bottle them for you too.

A six pack of beer can be had for less than $5.00. The best import is under $10. Table wine prices are similar. Would I consider doing better in my house? As a hobby maybe, but for normal consumption to replace the current source?  I don't believe so. I remember back in college days, the idea of having my own keg and cooler was a good idea. When I had to ability to do so, the shelf life, and space requirement were factors for never going through with it. That was just to have a keg. To brew the product and getting it 'right' would take even longer. Hell I remember spending a summer trying to get the formula right for the perfect "Long Island Iced Tea". I got it by the end of the summer but by then was too drunk to write it down.

I'll agree that the alcohol lobby would be at the forefront against legalization because it would have an impact on their sales. However, from a government standpoint, it wouldn't matter. If both were taxed, assuming that pot would be taxed more heavily, there would be an increase in revenue. IF you could control it's distribution. I don't believe they can, so I don't believe, Federally, it will ever be legalized. Decriminalized, perhaps, but never legal, packaged, distributed, and taxed similarly to alcohol or tobacco products.

Edited to add:
Level's comment regarding DUI type enforcement also comes into play. To my knowledge there is no quick, simple, roadside test for Marijuana as there is for alcohol. I also believe that marijuana is in the system for a long time. I seem to recall that you can text someone's hair and determine if the person used pot within the last 30 days. I don't know if the time/day of last use is as accurate as a road side Breathalyzer.

If I'm right, and I'm really not sure regarding a quick, cheap test; lack of easy enforcement for DUI is another factor.


Mercnbeth:
I think a larger lobby against the legalization of drugs would come from law enforcement and prison guard unions.  Approximately 70% of the people in prison in the U.S. are there for drug related offenses.  If we made drugs legal that would mean, essentially, that 70 %  of the judges, prosecutors, public defenders, lawyers, cops, prison guards, prison constructors ....etc would be out of a job.
The convenient road side test for alcohol has to do with imparement.  The physical test, touching your nose, walking a line etc  (the blood alcohol content has been related to imparement) so that is easy to do. 
The hair test is only limited by the lengtth of ones hair.  The longer your hair the more history the examiner has access to.
I think the major problem is that, in the case of pot, the reactions to the drug are quite varried, depending both on the individual and the strain of pot used.
I am not convinced that if pot were legalized that people would just grow their own and not depend on an industry to supply them.  While it is legal for those with a doctors recomendation to grow, the majority purchase.   The overwhelming majority of pot smokers are buyers and not growers.  I do not see the legalization  of pot changing that.

thompson




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