RE: A Minor Revelation

RE: A Minor Revelation (Full Version)

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crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:45:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress to me, the answer is that our country is founded by judeo Christian principals the predominant religion was Christian and our government and our monetary system is deeply ingrained with their social mores. Christians have had a long standing reputation for being adversarial, and bull headed all in the name of god. They like to go in to your country and or your tribe and tell you that what you are doing is all wrong, and use fear and intimidation so that you will join up with them and give them 10 percent of your holdings. this is a great business model if you were unethecal....think about it,...i sell widgets, and i get a posse to invade non-widget owning countries and the convince them with fear and intimidation that with out widgets they will push a rock up a fire mountain for eternity and so then the buy in for billions of dollars... not unlike mob protection money........... but boy did i just go off on a tangent.....ooops. you asked why folks seem so nosy and quick to condemn folks that live differently then they do...and that to me is why. You attribute those characteristics to Christianity? Rather ignores history, doesn't it? What about the Romans, Greeks, Turks, Mongols, Egyptians, Carpathians, Chinese, Japanese, godless Soviets, (this list could go on indefinitely) and even today's radical Islamists? John well john i dont think the christians made thier values up out of thin air....the ideas were floating around (in pools of blood) all over the globe....but the folks you mention are not the folks that founded America ...so those folks only have a cusory involvemnet in the sculpting of the mores of our culture as we see it today....IMCO *as Masterfiremaam swoon* says quote:** The <united>states were settled by religious fanatics that had, for the most part, been kicked out of wherever they came from. These are the repercussions.

Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:54:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress to me, the answer is that our country is founded by judeo Christian principals the predominant religion was Christian and our government and our monetary system is deeply ingrained with their social mores. Christians have had a long standing reputation for being adversarial, and bull headed all in the name of god. They like to go in to your country and or your tribe and tell you that what you are doing is all wrong, and use fear and intimidation so that you will join up with them and give them 10 percent of your holdings. this is a great business model if you were unethecal....think about it,...i sell widgets, and i get a posse to invade non-widget owning countries and the convince them with fear and intimidation that with out widgets they will push a rock up a fire mountain for eternity and so then the buy in for billions of dollars... not unlike mob protection money........... but boy did i just go off on a tangent.....ooops. you asked why folks seem so nosy and quick to condemn folks that live differently then they do...and that to me is why. You attribute those characteristics to Christianity? Rather ignores history, doesn't it? What about the Romans, Greeks, Turks, Mongols, Egyptians, Carpathians, Chinese, Japanese, godless Soviets, (this list could go on indefinitely) and even today's radical Islamists? John well john i dont think the christians made thier values up out of thin air....the ideas were floating around (in pools of blood) all over the globe....but the folks you mention are not the folks that founded America ...so those folks only have a cusory involvemnet in the sculpting of the mores of our culture as we see it today....IMCO *as Masterfiremaam swoon* says quote: The <united>states were settled by religious fanatics that had, for the most part, been kicked out of wherever they came from. These are the repercussions. If the United States is no different than most other powerful countries throughout history, and Christianity is no different than the other dominant religions (even athiest beliefs) of those countries, then I would say that's a strong implication that these characteristics are intrinsically human in nature, rather than religious in nature. John**

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:01:01 AM)
What continues to mystify me is how most people fully accept and support diong things to animals without their consent all the time- breeding, feeding, living, killing, eating, wearing, etc etc But for some reason THIS particular thing we're supposed to get consent for? We can kill it, fry it up and eat it, but we can't do "that other stuff" because there's no consent?

Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:05:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross What continues to mystify me is how most people fully accept and support diong things to animals without their consent all the time- breeding, feeding, living, killing, eating, wearing, etc etc But for some reason THIS particular thing we're supposed to get consent for? We can kill it, fry it up and eat it, but we can't do "that other stuff" because there's no consent? Excellent point, LA. To which I repeat: quote: This illustrates that everyone has limits to what they will tolerate. It's just a matter of where each, personally, draws the line. And there's no point in trying to elevate one delineation as more accurate than another. Everyone thinks their own line is drawn correctly, while others draw theirs capriciously and arbitrarily. Welcome to the human race. John

mistoferin -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:09:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross What continues to mystify me is how most people fully accept and support diong things to animals without their consent all the time- breeding, feeding, living, killing, eating, wearing, etc etc But for some reason THIS particular thing we're supposed to get consent for? We can kill it, fry it up and eat it, but we can't do "that other stuff" because there's no consent? Uh oh Susan...gotta hijack for a second.... LMAO....well if you think YOU'RE mystified...try explaining that to a Korean woman who doesn't speak much English. Years ago I was a cruelty investigator for the humane society. We got a call that these people had a chicken tied to a tree. We got there and sure enough....chicken tied to a tree. Well it was tied there so they could fatten it up and eat it. The poor woman could just not understand that it's ok to kill chickens here....and it's ok to eat chickens here....but you can't tie them to trees here. Ok...back to the topic at hand....

crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:11:38 AM)
john, gosh i am not of that mind, but i support your right to your POV... me, i would jump off a bridge though if i thought for a moment that it was intrinsically human nature to be violent, greedy, self serving, lying, manipulating, fear mongering, nosey, judgenmental, pigheaded, over lords. its not that i dont notice the tendency of folks out there to be like this, but i think it is the idea of one bad apple spoiling the bunch... just like the one guy that called himself a master, kept his slave in a box for 12 years, or the other one that killed his slaves and put them in barrels, are not what that majority of BDSM folks represent, Yet it certainly looks that what to folks who have only what the media spoon feeds them as a basis for understanding our community.

crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:14:32 AM)
dang LA that is so spot on.....never thought of it like that...i am writing a letter to PETA right now...grin quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross What continues to mystify me is how most people fully accept and support diong things to animals without their consent all the time- breeding, feeding, living, killing, eating, wearing, etc etc But for some reason THIS particular thing we're supposed to get consent for? We can kill it, fry it up and eat it, but we can't do "that other stuff" because there's no consent?

Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:15:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress john, gosh i am not of that mind, but i support your right to your POV... me, i would jump off a bridge though if i thought for a moment that it was intrinsically human nature to be violent, greedy, self serving, lying, manipulating, fear mongering, nosey, judgenmental, pigheaded, over lords. its not that i dont notice the tendency of folks out there to be like this, but i think it is the idea of one bad apple spoiling the bunch... just like the one guy that called himself a master, kept his slave in a box for 12 years, or the other one that killed his slaves and put them in barrels, are not what that majority of BDSM folks represent, Yet it certainly looks that what to folks who have only what the media spoon feeds them as a basis for understanding our community. Do you know of any society now, or in documented history, that was free of violence, greed, lying, manipulation, fear mongering, etc? If so, then you might have a point. If not, then it's probably well intentioned wishful thinking. These characteristics are even documented to exist in animal populations (including murder). John

akisha -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:16:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PONYSEEKER quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO -suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes." Suppose, just for a moment, that the monkey consented. What then? - Susan I think if you were in the state of Washington you would be okay then....LOL Only if the money works in politics or law [:D]

catfood -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:18:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam One simple reason is that a lot of people think that pleasure, in general, is mostly related to sins. Since it's "bad" to willfully sin, it's "bad" to not only enjoy, but (gasp) pursue sexual pleasure. The states were settled by religious fanatics that had, for the most part, been kicked out of wherever they came from. These are the repercussions. Master Fire yep, what she said.

akisha -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:19:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO akisha: Well, okay, the monkey can't consent. That was a bad example. But I mean, suppose it's "something way outside the realm of most people's experience." Yet involves two consenual human beings. Or (not to go off on a tangent, but) -suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes." Suppose, just for a moment, that the monkey consented. What then? Why would anyone care? We're in an isolated tree in a remote area of Columbia. Nobody can even see us. Why would anyone care? - Susan Because there will always be people that feel the need to over involve themselves in other peoples lives. My former mother in law is very much this way

Nosathro -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:25:05 AM)
Tal and greetings Susan All Societies creates their own rules, norms, laws etc. based on Religous/Political/Economics. In my experience in a Society like the U.S. there are various groups that attempt to impose their views on the rest. Some of these groups are very successful. I am sure that NOW would not be tolernate of having women admit their desire to be dominated by a man. Nor Religous see men admit they like to be dominated by women. These groups and other like it are very active in having their views made in to law and that is exactly what they are doing. I wish you well Nosathro

Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catfood quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam One simple reason is that a lot of people think that pleasure, in general, is mostly related to sins. Since it's "bad" to willfully sin, it's "bad" to not only enjoy, but (gasp) pursue sexual pleasure. The states were settled by religious fanatics that had, for the most part, been kicked out of wherever they came from. These are the repercussions. Master Fire yep, what she said. Actually, the term "fanatic" is relative to the comparative group. In today's society, they might well be considered "fanatics" in the same way that the Amish are today. But in comparison to the society that existed at the time, they were exceptionally "average". They did not emigrate to the American mainland because they were thrown out for their "fanatacism". They left voluntarily because of religious persecution by the Church of England, which King Henry VIII had separated from Roman Catholicism in order to deny Papal authority over his repeated marriages, divorces and worse. In doing so, he established an official Church of England, a singlular denomination inseparable from, and answerable to, the King. It is far from "fanatical" to desire the right to practice the religion of your choice. John

crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:31:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Do you know of any society now, or in documented history, that was free of violence, greed, lying, manipulation, fear mongering, etc? If so, then you might have a point. If not, then it's probably well intentioned wishful thinking. These characteristics are even documented to exist in animal populations (including murder). John i simply disagree....maui has a population of 150k people yet only 15 murders a year...which seems to affirm my assertion that it is not human nature....if it was human nature i would think we would see a lot higher numbers. but this is not to say that all society's do not have violence in them and that the rulers of these society's did not likely employ violence to gain their status as ruler....but i think these folks are the bad apples i was speaking about.. so in conclusion i would prefer to agree to disagree on this one....not that i dont love lively debate...but i just dont want to debate this issue...simply because i think it is not one where there is a clear winner... its more a glass is half empty or half full debate...and you wont ever be able to convince me that the intrinsic human nature is anything less then amazing, beautiful, awe inspiring, compassionate, creative, and infinate.... but then i am a dyed in the wool optimist, if you haven't noticed by my 2000 something posts....we are a very buoyant bunch as a rule...its very hard for us to see negativities as anything but possitives...[:D]

Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:43:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Do you know of any society now, or in documented history, that was free of violence, greed, lying, manipulation, fear mongering, etc? If so, then you might have a point. If not, then it's probably well intentioned wishful thinking. These characteristics are even documented to exist in animal populations (including murder). John i simply disagree....maui has a population of 150k people yet only 15 murders a year...which seems to affirm my assertion that it is not human nature....if it was human nature i would think we would see a lot higher numbers. Actually, Maui is quite a violent place. At the rate of 15 murders per a population of 150,000, that translates into a murder rate of one per 10,000 individuals. According to US crime statistics (see notation at the bottom of this post) we had 16,692 murders in 2005, translating into a murder rate of one per 17,374 individuals. If we had the same murder rate as Maui, the number of murders in the US during 2005 would have been approximately 29,000, or a 74 % increase. Your island of peace and tranquility is a figment of your imagination. And the affirmation of your assertion is actually a clear contradiction. John 2005 FBI Crime Statistics - http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html

Missokyst -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:51:41 AM)
I think most people have judgements about what is acceptable to them, or just freaky chit. I am ok with that, people have a right to their opinion even when it may conflict with my own. I may not like it when people judge me, but if I am not up to standing firm on what I do, then I shouldn't be doing it. I do think though, that since we do live in a society there are some things that there should a bias against in general. Because sometimes things are exposed to the public and suddenly it's "Another crime where a BDSM label is attached", and then we are all tainted with that brush of evil. Heck, it is already becoming commonplace to say that if a killer chokes someone, kidnaps and tortures, ect, that he is sadistic. And dang! When a killer uses bdsm as a lure.. that is even more of a societal judgement against us. Even though WE know that what we do comes from a different mindset, the way society sees us is still sick, due to the actions of another. As a part of civilized society we just have to live with the fact that judgements will happen. Kyst

agirl -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 11:59:36 AM)
I think it stems from fear, ignorance and a type of laziness. It's present in the way people view lots of things......even simple differences can give some people the heebie-jeebies, never mind anything as naughty as sex. If you actually ask a person WHY they think a certain way, they often can't answer.....they've imbibed an attitude somewhere along the line and haven't explored it further or examined their thinking on it.............but they'll often stick rigidly to their view despite that. Some people really have a hard time entertaining ideas that differ wildly from their world view. I know I do sometimes. agirl

crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:06:25 PM)
this is what i dont understand about glass is always half empty sorts of folks...how does it serve you to always think the worst of any situation...i am not judging you...but i do want to understand...do you feel like if you always think the worse you can never be disappointed? and how does it serve you as a Dom, and as a human being, to always be meticulously correcting some ones rosey out look on life? how can that add value to your quality of life? who enjoys that sort of person in their life? again not being mean, really wanting to understand. quote: ORIGINAL: RoverYour island of peace and tranquility is a figment of your imagination.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress and how does it serve you as a Dom, and as a human being, to always be meticulously correcting some ones rosey out look on life? how can that add value to your quality of life? who enjoys that sort of person in their life? again not being mean, really wanting to understand. I often get told I'm very negative, nitpicky and always see the worst. I think I'm a realistic optimist. I see what's there. I delight in examining things to their details, the big small and sideways pictures. I love consistency. In order to appreciate what there is, we must understand and accept what IS- only then can we truly appreciate and delight in the bliss that we have. Yes, sometimes it's hard and I completely understand WHY people think I'm so negative- I think I just process a little differently.

akisha -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:13:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO akisha: Well, okay, the monkey can't consent. That was a bad example. But I mean, suppose it's "something way outside the realm of most people's experience." Yet involves two consenual human beings. Or (not to go off on a tangent, but) -suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes." Suppose, just for a moment, that the monkey consented. What then? Why would anyone care? We're in an isolated tree in a remote area of Columbia. Nobody can even see us. Why would anyone care? - Susan I just wanted to retouch on this one point. To legally consent to something the person or in this case creature, must be able to fully comprehend the thing they are consenting to, to be able to actually fully and legally consent to it. Same holds for crininal charges.. If the person could not comprehend the ramifications of the action then they can not be held compitent and therefor not legally responsible. This is why children, some mentally handicapped, insane, or elderly people with declining mental facilities can not legally consent, or be held responsible.

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