RE: A Minor Revelation (Full Version)

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Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:28:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

this is what i dont understand about glass is always half empty sorts of folks...how does it serve you to always think the worst of any situation...i am not judging you...but i do want to understand...do you feel like if you always think the worse you can never be disappointed?
 
and how does it serve you as a Dom, and as a human being,  to always be meticulously correcting some ones rosey out look on life? how can that add value to your quality of life? who enjoys that sort of person in their life?
 
again not being mean, really wanting to understand.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Your island of peace and tranquility is a figment of your imagination. 



You may find it hard to believe, but I'm actually an exceptionally optimistic individual.  But this specific issue has nothing to do with me, or you, or our optimism.  It has everything to do with reality.  You cited statistics as evidence to support the existence of a comparatively idyllic and non-violent society.  Unfortunately, those statistics turned out to prove something entirely different.
 
It's certainly your right to believe what you want in the face of contradictory evidence.  People talk themselves into believing things all the time.  But it's unrealistic to believe that the rest of us should climb on board the fantasy train, simply to be perceived as optimistic or to please you.  I don't choose to believe the worst in any situation, nor the best.  It simply is what it is, particularly when it involves statistics and facts rather than opinions and beliefs. 
 
How does it serve me personally to correct those that portray opinions and beliefs as facts and statistics?  I believe that it's nonconsensual to lie to people.  I believe that it's inappropriate to portray one's fantasy as if it were reality.  I believe people have the right to informed consent, and can handle the reality of things even if those facts and statistics don't fit someone's rosey outlook on life.  And I believe that suits me quite well.
 
John



crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:42:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


thanks for taking the time to explain it to me...LA, i sort of knew that would be the answer but i guess i wanted to understand it better...which i think i do.
 
you and john both have scientific analytical minds, me, i have a poetic mind, so just the way that each thinks is going to be different, and there  fore we will arrive at different perspectives.
 
i understand that a scientific analytical mind can achieve great satisfaction from accuracy, Constancy and meticulous detail examination, which boggles my poetic mind, because to me there could be no greater suffering....lol.
 
i think it comes down to defining "what is".....and i think of the old elephant story....and i think that every ones perspective is equally valid and valuable...
 
and it would never occur to me to say to some one that
 
quote:

Your island of peace and tranquility is a figment of your imagination.  And the affirmation of your assertion is actually a clear contradiction.

 
and i dont think it would occur to you either...

i dont see you as anything but the consummate pragmatist LA , i dont think we judge each other and we do value the others contribution, as different as that may be at times.
 
That is not what i feel i am getting from John he seems to use his analytical mind to be adversarial, and "win" any debate by use of facts and figures.
 
now i have seen him do this on so many threads, and me, i am not going to feed it because i dont think it is healthy for any that are involved. but i just cant get the question...what do people get out of being right to the point where you alienate yourself from the people around you...


and Susan i am sorry this was a brutal hijack ...just say the word and i will stop.
 



crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:44:17 PM)

[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:45:45 PM)

Yeah, I think I enjoy the process of the debate more and that John loves the fullness of the debate itself. (We both enjoy all of it, but there's certain aspects you get into more than others)  And if I'm wrong, I'm sure John will correct me there.

You're also right in that I don't get the poetic mind at all- it leads me to eye-rolling of all types.  However, my nature compels me to admire anything I can't 'get.'



domiguy -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 12:47:27 PM)

Very difficult question to answer...I am opinionated...We judge things every day...from the foods we eat to the people we come across..."Do I like this...Do I want to hang out with them." It's a judgement...personal tastes..etc.

This site can be a little difficult to swallow...no pun intended.  When you see posts about people who are willing to do physical harm to themselves or others and sometimes it seems they might be irreparably damaged...then it seems that although they are adults, there are much deeper issues at hand other than just plain ol' consentual fun. Almost like the monkey analogy.

Who needs or wants to continually be treated or treat others like they are absoloutely nothing and all of their opinions are of no use or worse.  I know there is a part of this population who caters to this belief, and although in the scheme of things it makes no difference to how my coffee will taste this morning... I just want to tell some of these folks to wake up! 'Cause I would hope that there is more to your existence than that the only human contact you receive is solely out of anger or aggression.

I don't even know anymore what "kinky" and "freaky" mean.  Doggystyle?...lol.

As far as religion...If you are eating, breathing and being consumed by this lifestyle..and dragging your slave down main street...then yes you are going to get some stares and Puritanical beliefs might be held against you...lol..(might be time to find a hobby) And if you are not prepared for this reaction then you are not only niave but probably kinda dumb..I believe for most...,although I could be wrong,  that this is more of a "private"personal  practice. Also you would think on this site more doms would kind of dig the Islamic religions for they tend to treat their women like shit.

As far as motorcycle "gangs" go,  I'm sure there are bikers for Christ and for Scientology and Make a Wish foundation.  If I had kids, and we were out and about, and there were bikers to my left and a group of nuns to my right I would probably be watching the bikers. However, if there were a group of bikers to my left and priests to my right we would probably just go home...lol.

My two cents. Again.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.



Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 1:05:11 PM)

Amy, I don't have the same emotional investment that you do in the give and take inherent to these boards.  I don't get upset with what people may say, and actually enjoy when they contradict me.  To me, a bulletin board can offer no greater enjoyment than a complete exploration of contrasting points of view.  Not only do I enjoy the process itself, but I enjoy learning how well my own beliefs hold up under detailed inspection.  I want to know because if they fail the test of logical scrutiny, I want to remake them, revise them, rethink them, and create something that is logically defensible.
 
I can think of nothing more torturous than threads relegated to "happy birthday", or an endless stream of posts all saying "I agree". 
 
While many people may not appreciate the distinction, I have less personal interest in being "right" than I do in being logical and sensible.  Much of WIITWD doesn't have a foundation in fact, so it's often not possible to be "right".  Though as it relates to documented facts, I do believe there is virtue in being "correct", as it does everyone a disservice to disseminate information that is factually untrue.
 
It's also natural for me to write rather clinically.  Something that can often be mistaken for being "adversarial".  Though in truth, there are times when I do purposely take an adversarial position when I think it is proper to do so (no doubt you have seen it, and at times even enjoyed it).  This thread, however, is surely not an adversarial occasion.
 
And finally, I think it's relevant to touch upon motivation.  It is not my objective to be "liked" on these boards, though it is equally not my objective to be disliked.  I simply feel that people will make up their own minds, and reality dictates that everyone is liked by some and disliked by others.  That is not to say that I'm not a likeable person, just ask anyone that knows me. :)
 
John



KennelDeSade2 -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 1:09:58 PM)

quote:


I feel the "law" is written on everyone's brian. Look at the laws for different faiths. They all  have laws against these things. I would say that it's pretty much universal.


The reason that the laws you reference are cross cultural is that their intent was to encourage high reproduction rates and stable famlies for the rearing of those offspring.  They have nothing to do with our brains being hard wired for some "universal moral code" that isn't reallly very universal at all.



crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 1:22:13 PM)

good to know.



drawntothedark -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 1:43:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KennelDeSade2

quote:


I feel the "law" is written on everyone's brian. Look at the laws for different faiths. They all  have laws against these things. I would say that it's pretty much universal.


The reason that the laws you reference are cross cultural is that their intent was to encourage high reproduction rates and stable famlies for the rearing of those offspring.  They have nothing to do with our brains being hard wired for some "universal moral code" that isn't reallly very universal at all.



No I think they are. We all know right from wrong, the degree veries in each of us. We all know it's wrong to kill someone. We were taught that of course by our parents, but I believe we know it in our hearts as well.

A human brain starts learning how to distingish emotion from the faces of others very quickly when we are babies. Seeing a look of sadness or a "scary" face from someone to a baby even 5 months can make the baby cry. So knowing you are causing someone serious harm is not a "law" thing. It's an emotional thing. We know deep down inside it's wrong.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 2:22:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark
We all know it's wrong to kill someone. We were taught that of course by our parents, but I believe we know it in our hearts as well.

Hardly.

Soldiers?  Wars?  Abortions?  Capital Punishment?  Self-Defense? Self survival?  I'd kill someone for a heck of a lot reasons and consider it completely right and good to do so. 

And I don't think I'm the minority on this one.

You seem prone to making sweeping statements without really thinking it through- first you only naysay rapists and child molesters, then it's people into animals.

Somehow you are ok with all other forms of abuse and wrongdoing?  Genocide?  Biological warfare?  Loss of privacy?  Refusing treatment to someone who had different moral beliefs than you?  Nothing you'd say about any of those?



drawntothedark -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 2:44:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark
We all know it's wrong to kill someone. We were taught that of course by our parents, but I believe we know it in our hearts as well.

Hardly.

Soldiers?  Wars?  Abortions?  Capital Punishment?  Self-Defense? Self survival?  I'd kill someone for a heck of a lot reasons and consider it completely right and good to do so. 

And I don't think I'm the minority on this one.

You seem prone to making sweeping statements without really thinking it through- first you only naysay rapists and child molesters, then it's people into animals.

Somehow you are ok with all other forms of abuse and wrongdoing?  Genocide?  Biological warfare?  Loss of privacy?  Refusing treatment to someone who had different moral beliefs than you?  Nothing you'd say about any of those?


Forgive me on the animal thing. My mind doesn't really go into the deepest darkest thinking patterns, Animals and sex with them is not something I focus on. Soooo I forgot to include them. Sorry.

You seem to have a problem with anyone not thinking the way you do. That's fine. Your opinion is yours to have.

Causing someone harm, with malice in my opinion, is an universal No No. I feel we all know it's wrong. We are all ,or should be if we are damaged goods, subject to the cries and pleas of another person we are killing. If your heart would not know it's wrong than fine. Mine would. Most people's would.

I govern myself to the issues you raised of course. They were not in question. If I felt you needed my reaction to every wrong doing of man, to post in this thread I would have went to another.

This thread was asking about "lifestyle morals" so to speak. I do not really think that biological warfare and Genocide belonged in D/s. Perhaps I should look into it more. Of course I feel those are wrong. They with malice hurt another person. But did I feel the poster wanted to know about them ..........no.

Pedophilia, rape, and murder have been raised in question in these forums. So that is why I spoke of them. In a sick way you could, to some fringe people, place them here with us in our sexuality.

So in your questioning my VERY non -judgemental statements are you in fact saying that it may or may not be okay to kill or rape? It's only man's laws...........who cares.



SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 2:52:22 PM)

Sorry I disappeared suddenly and for so long. I am leaving town tommorrow, and had to answer a lot of phone calls from relatives (and make them).

Thanks for all of the replies (because I really am curious about this topic).

I agreee w/crouching tigress.

I agree/wsome others, too.

I am wondering if Rover isn't right. Could this be a phenomenon that spans across cultures? And say, in some obscure tribe in Africa, for example, that might still be almost "primitive" (compared to us and our modern tools, cars, etc.) - that, for insatnce, kills or banishes people who do X instead of Y when it comes to sex?

Maybe this is just almost a genetic thing? That's kinda what I think Rover is saying, really (correct me if I am wrong, Rover).

But I am with crouching tigress in that if I thought that was man's nature, it would kind of make me almost want to off myself. 

But maybe it is true. KennelDeSade said and also drawntothe dark mentioned that this could be a moral code written into people's minds as a species (maybe to protect the species and keep it reproducing). I buy that, I guess, to a very limited extent. But, I mean, we also had ancient Greece where unmentionablephilia (you know what I mean) was almost second-nature, in many ways, not to mention homosexuality (at least among males). What happened there? 

- Susan 



SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 3:23:09 PM)

In case anyone is wondering, I am not promoting bestiality in particular. It's not a turn on for me, but I am wondering why it would bother someone else. I suppose the animal cannot consent, but it's not getting hurt, is it?

I suppose it can be considered non-consensual. And I suppose somewhere, there are people who would actually hurt an animal while doing something to it along that line (and maybe even make it smoke a cigarette afterwards, he).

I mean (truly) no disrespect by saying this, but in general, I just can't get too worked up about it, or if other people do it or not. That's just the way I am. I know that there are people who will disagree (and that's okay).

And I also know that for akisha, her disagreement was mostly an intellectual point, not a visceral, moral stance.

It was probably not a great example to use - it's just the only one I could think of that was "off-beat" enough and weird enough to enough people to be pertinent to the topic. But the consent thing might be valid, I don't know...

- Susan  



lateralist1 -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 3:32:44 PM)

Thankyou for explaining that animals can consent YourhandMyAss. Of course they can in some circumstances.
If they are allowed to express themselves naturally. Why nearly everyone makes such a fuss about it I will never know.
I remember being a little shocked when my foster child came home and told me that his head teacher had been talking to them about bestiality but I soon reasoned that it was better for a teacher to handle the subject if it came up than ignore it.
Basically a lot of people are really not very open about their sexual practice so some people remain very ignorant of what others enjoy.
Some TV programmes in England are doing a great job in opening up the debate though.
I am pretty certain that in twenty years or so BDSM activities will be mainstream.
I will always regret though that nobody told me about BDSM until a few years ago.
My life would have been a lot happier if they had.
I even read the 'Story of O' years ago but didn't realise there was a community of people doing it for real.
So if you can, talk about it. I do. Ok it got me the sack lol but it was worth it.
I look at it like this I would rather have no job and a future than a job and no future.
It is our job to educate the world.



ModeratorEleven -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 5:22:55 PM)

Folks, please drop the bestiality line of this thread.  It's one of the topics that's specifically forbidden by our rules.

XI



Missokyst -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 5:54:46 PM)

^5!
Kyst



SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 8:59:08 PM)

ModeratorEleven: Okay, sorry. I temporarily forgot (truly). My apologies.

- Susan



ExSteelAgain -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 9:54:25 PM)

I like to think of myself as one of the poetic ones, too, but I want to thank Rover for some very interesting points made. He did research the issues thoroughly and made valid points.



SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:00:42 PM)

Thanks for the reply, ExSteel.

- Susan



ExSteelAgain -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:05:58 PM)

You're welcome, SusanofO. :)



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