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juliaoceania:  For most of humankind's time on planet Earth we have lived in small scale societies that had wealth redistribution as a part of the makeup of the group. If one person possessed too much wealth, acquired too much status, it would threaten the group so this was discouraged. It is only in the last few millenia that we have had large scale societies that functioned by having a pyramid structure in which the few ruled the many and acquired large vast holdings. Even after these sorts of societies were built, many lived outside of them, hunting and gathering instead of farming.

My point (which is presented in a very simplistic and general way) is that it is not inherently "natural" for people to live in a manner that we do today.

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1) Are humans inherently greedy?

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2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else? 

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3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both? 

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4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

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5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future? 

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

not to worry to much cuz if you can believe this this data is correct we only have 45 years left :)

usa
Oil - production:                    7.61 million bbl/day (2005 est.)
Oil - consumption:                20.03 million bbl/day (2003 est.)
Oil - exports:                           1.048 million bbl/day (2004)
Oil - imports:                        13.15 million bbl/day (2004)
Oil - proved reserves:            22.45 billion bbl (1 January 2002)
Natural gas - production:        539 billion cu m (2003 est.)
Natural gas - consumption:    633.6 billion cu m (2003 est.)
Natural gas - exports:            24.19 billion cu m (2004)
Natural gas - imports:            114.1 billion cu m (2004 est.)
Natural gas - proved reserves:    5.353 trillion cu m (1 January 2002)
Land use:                arable land: 18.01%
permanent crops:     0.21%
other:                         81.78% (2005)
Irrigated land:           223,850 sq km (2003)

the world
Oil - production:                            79.65 million bbl/day (2003 est.)
Oil - consumption:                        80.1 million bbl/day (2003 est.)
Oil - proved reserves:                    1.349 trillion bbl (1 January 2002 est.)
Natural gas - production:               2.674 trillion cu m (2003 est.)
Natural gas - consumption:            2.675 trillion cu m (2003 est.)
Natural gas - exports:                    667.6 billion cu m (2001 est.)
Natural gas - imports:                    696 billion cu m (2001 est.)
Natural gas - proved reserves:        174.6 trillion cu m (1 January 2002)

Land use:                 arable land: 13.31%
permanent crops:     4.71%
other:                         81.98% (2005)
Irrigated land:          2,770,980 sq km (2003)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/ca.html

does anyone else find it interesting that the world consumes more oil than is produced?  LOL

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ORIGINAL: Stephann

I don't suppose you have any statistics regarding the amount of oil used 45 years ago?  Ninety years ago?  I recall radio programs my dad loved, advertising coal as home heating fuel.

I'm sure we'll somehow figure some other source, or just get by with using our feet.

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If there is anything the history of humans has shown is that we are a dynamic species that changes through time, and that we will not be static in the future if our past is any kind of predictor.

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

It all comes down to one thing...self-interest.

We are motivated not by greed, but by self-interest. We always try to figure out in all our decision in life, "What's in it for me?"

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

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If there is anything the history of humans has shown is that we are a dynamic species that changes through time, and that we will not be static in the future if our past is any kind of predictor.

I believe this statement to be one of the biggest fallacies of all. Humans once they developed the mental characteristics that made them human, have remained basically the same.. I mean from a behavioural point of view.
What HAS changed are the achievements that intelligent humans have brought about. say from stone axes to atom bombs,both having the same underlying purpose or from primitive wooden rafts to super liners. Some form of religious perspective has remained remarkably constant. The tendency to tell stories and create myths etc etc.

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Homo sapiens (100,000 years ago to present)

Species Description:

The modern form of Homo sapiens first appeared about 100,000 years ago. This species is distinguished by large brain size, a forehead that rises sharply, eyebrow ridges that are very small, a prominent chin, and lighter bone structure than H. heidelbergensis.

Even in those 100,000 years, anatomical trends toward smaller molars and decreased bone mass can be seen in the Homo sapiens fossil record. For example, contemporary humans in Europe and Asia have bones that are 20 to 30 percent thinner and lighter than those of upper Paleolithic humans dating from about 30,000 years ago.

About 40,000 years ago, with the appearance of the Cro-Magnon culture, tools became markedly more sophisticated, incorporating a wider variety of raw materials such as bone and antler. They also included new implements for making clothing, engravings, and sculptures. Fine artwork, in the form of decorated tools, beads, ivory carvings of humans and animals, clay figurines, musical instruments, and cave paintings, appeared over the next 20,000 years. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/o.html

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

41 years ago close wnough?

http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9010943&contentId=7021566
the excel file

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Isn't that how we got Bush in the first place?

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread.

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

I know I am in some ways. 

But you don't qualify what we are greedy FOR.

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True. Greedy for monetary gain and power.

2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?

I honestly don't think that all politicians are corrupted.  Just like I don't think all parents are sucky.  Most of them are doing what they perceive to be a good job, when they really are causing serious issues.

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Agreed but those who make it to the top get there by stepping over a few bodies on the way.

3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

I'd say both.

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Agreed.

4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

We're not having problems today which were any different than the problems which took place 5000 years ago.  It's simply on a wider scale with bigger numbers.

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The 20th century is largely defined by unprecedented organised violence and ethnic conflict. Early modern history was generally characterised by armies fighting armies. This changed in the 20th century. Armies began to wage war on civilians on an unprecedented scale. In my book, this is a new problem.

5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?

One can hope for an improved model.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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1) Are humans inherently greedy?

I think that people vacillate between greed and altuism. It depends on the individual, their value system, and how they want to lead their lives which value wins out. I would say that all humans have the facility to be greedy inherently, but that does not mean they will be so.

julia, slight problem in that if we have a basic insinct for greed/power then we're knackered in the sense that we will seek it. Plus, we're pack animals which means most of us are prepared to accept there is a limit to what we can achieve. How much of our violence is driven by conditioning or an in-built drive for achievement? Hunter-gatherers lived fine within their community but they fought other communities for resources and sexual gain (even attempting to wipe out other hunter-gatherer communities through impregnating others' females). Is this natural or uncivilised?

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Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

I think that is extremely possible that people will look back on us as ignorant and wasteful, if people are living on a planet in which they have time to study and contemplate such things, which is not necessarily what will happen in the future. It could turn out that a major die off of human beings, collapse of the economy, global warming changing whether patterns could cause widespread famine and could wipe out large percentages of the people on planet Earth to the extent that people do not have the luxury to even contemplate what we did or what it meant.

I agree it is extremely possible and not as difficult to achieve as some may think. For example, much civil war and wars of the twentieth century were largely due to notions of racial superiority and irreconilable ethnic difference. There are biologists who are attempting to prove that the differences between races are perceived rather than reality and in fact there is one human race. If this becomes a widely believed notion then one of the root causes of violence and war is suddenly removed.

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5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?

I am not a complete nihilist, but either two things will happen, we evolve to a better system by choice or we go back to hunters and gatherers or a fuedal cheiftan system by necessity. The way that we are going through natural resources presently does not bode well because most people do not see the larger picture... and even if they do they feel helpless to change things (I am in the latter camp myself)

We're only so far down the evolutionary path. History is progress and I genuinely believe we are victims of our own ignorance. As science, technology and education improves then so will our understanding of what we need out of our existence (and it's not the violence and exploitation that our current political environment is offering us).

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ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

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3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both? 

Both; them for abusing their authority/position; us for being too ignorant to notice/stop it. Spot on. They only get away with it because we let them (and possibly want them to)

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The only viable way to study groups of people based upon genetic similarity and have it mean something is in relation to disease, and gene flow to determine what we were doing and when. [endquote]

How about intelligence ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/31/2006 11:33:59 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

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The only viable way to study groups of people based upon genetic similarity and have it mean something is in relation to disease, and gene flow to determine what we were doing and when.

How about intelligence ?