Humans and Greed (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


NorthernGent -> Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 10:50:43 AM)

Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread.

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?

3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?




juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 11:07:26 AM)

quote:

1) Are humans inherently greedy?


I think that people vacillate between greed and altuism. It depends on the individual, their value system, and how they want to lead their lives which value wins out. I would say that all humans have the facility to be greedy inherently, but that does not mean they will be so.

quote:

) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?


The thirst for power and greediness are not necessarily the same thing. I think that the thirst for power is what pollutes and corrupts many of those who seek positions of power. Greed can too. I do not think ALL politicians are greedy or power hungry, just many of them.

quote:

Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?


I think that is extremely possible that people will look back on us as ignorant and wasteful, if people are living on a planet in which they have time to study and contemplate such things, which is not necessarily what will happen in the future. It could turn out that a major die off of human beings, collapse of the economy, global warming changing whether patterns could cause widespread famine and could wipe out large percentages of the people on planet Earth to the extent that people do not have the luxury to even contemplate what we did or what it meant.

quote:

5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?


I am not a complete nihilist, but either two things will happen, we evolve to a better system by choice or we go back to hunters and gatherers or a fuedal cheiftan system by necessity. The way that we are going through natural resources presently does not bode well because most people do not see the larger picture... and even if they do they feel helpless to change things (I am in the latter camp myself)






LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 11:08:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread.

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

I know I am in some ways. 

But you don't qualify what we are greedy FOR.
quote:


2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?

I honestly don't think that all politicians are corrupted.  Just like I don't think all parents are sucky.  Most of them are doing what they perceive to be a good job, when they really are causing serious issues.
quote:


3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

I'd say both.
quote:


4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

We're not having problems today which were any different than the problems which took place 5000 years ago.  It's simply on a wider scale with bigger numbers.
quote:


5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?

One can hope for an improved model.




sleazy -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 11:39:10 AM)

1) Yes. greedy for self-satisfaction, be it monetary, sexual, or just a feeling of general happiness and self-worth. For the wellbeing of those close to me. Everything else is of little short-term consequence to me. I have stated elsewhere I believe altruism is a myth.

2) Well power and greed (assuming financial) are almost interchangeable in most current economic models. With power you can obtain money, with money you can obtain power. As a side point how about the concept of being greedy for power in its own right. To sort of twist LAs point about politicians who believe they are doing good, an altrustic, doing it for your own good, is the absolute worst in my book.

3) Assuming a democracy the dumb voter is solely to blame. Do you blame the cat if you leave the tuna tin open on the counter, or was it your own stupid fault?:)

4) Sorry, crystal ball needs new batteries :)

5) See 4, I agree with Julia as regards the feeling of helplessness, just what can I do myself that makes a global difference?


We now return to our normally scheduled game of spot the opinionated cynic [:)]




OedipusRexIt -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 11:39:59 AM)

..... And will Underdog save Sweet Polly Purebread in time....?  

Seriously,  if someone here would like to present themselves as the All-Knowing, who will give the Divinely Definitive answer to these deep questions, please prepare to have your answers and your posture chuckled over.





juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 11:42:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

..... And will Underdog save Sweet Polly Purebread in time....?  

Seriously,  if someone here would like to present themselves as the All-Knowing, who will give the Divinely Definitive answer to these deep questions, please prepare to have your answers and your posture chuckled over.




posting an opinion about things is not being definitive, but if mine is one of the posts that provided chuckles then worse could come of it. I would rather amuse than anger after all. The world needs more laughter.




Real0ne -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 12:07:47 PM)

Well you can see it in raising kids.

i dont believe people are inherently greedy, i think people are opportunists.  People have Different doors that open up for them in life and those whom are moral will typically not be in the inherently greedy column.  That applies to everyone from birth up regardless of who or what they are or what they do as a profession.

Even thoough greed and power are not the same thing i tend to lump them into the same general basket but only because they are cousins and a person involved in one if the opportunity presents itself is typically involved in both.

No...greed will forever be here, as will murder and all the other so labelelled "sins of the soul".  Some people simply cant get enough even if its only for the sake of having more because they can.

Where will it go?  Well taking out the elite would be very difficult to say the least.  We have enough to make us comfortable so that we prefer to just go along and screw it.  So there is not reason for them to change since we have not done any serious pushing.  

It really does not matter what label we put on a government system or how pure the government is constructed, because as a result of greed, through bribes ect the system will always be the ruling elite ultimately in control and those who wish they were.  Unfortunately it all comes down to morals and those who aint got none and who know the system well enough and have enough resources, (the ruling elite), will always win over those who have morals because they are the ones who break the rules and always, or nearly always get away with it.




Real0ne -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 12:12:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

..... And will Underdog save Sweet Polly Purebread in time....?  

Seriously,  if someone here would like to present themselves as the All-Knowing, who will give the Divinely Definitive answer to these deep questions, please prepare to have your answers and your posture chuckled over.


Yeh its almost as funny as those who have nothing to offer at all isnt it. <chuckles>





NeedToUseYou -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 12:12:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Real0ne made a point on political systems and human greed - worthy of a thread.

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

Yes, until they reach their comfort level/expectations of what they think they deserve.
quote:


2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?

I think politicians become the victims of their own following.  Once they've locked into to a base of political thinking, and surround themselves with those that think the same, they invariably lose sight with reality and drift into the land of theory. I don't think many politicians start out bad, I think they become less open to varying options as time goes by.

quote:


3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

Both.
quote:


4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?


I think the system will always be unbalanced in a closed system like earth as people have different motivations, desires,  and abilities. The only way I see the complete end of greed and corruption is infinite free energy, resources, and space.

So, I guess probably so, as I couldn't imagine we'd still be shackled on this rock in 500 years.



quote:


5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?


I think capitalism is here to stay, unless we can devalue the worth of most things to point it's available for all.  Basicly, we'd have to get off the planet and figure out how to get the hell away from one each other and settle in little 100 people groups on distant planets or something.




meatcleaver -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 12:39:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

No. There are enough cultures around the world that prove the point. However, when security of resources are taken away, people respond my taking as much as they can (and need) for future security.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?


Politicians tend to be corrupted by power and the opportunity to be greedy, especially the idealistic ones that are cut off from their roots and the source of their idealism. Rich politicians only go into politics to make more money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

Politicians. They have the power and they use it for their own ends. If you have ever tried to change something for the better, even at a local level, you realise that politicians of all parties work against you unless there is something in it for them.

When I was in the Labour party we tried to clean up the local party of patronage and corruption, we were surprised when one of the big guns from London came to one of our meetings and accused us of being extremists for wanting a clean party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?


I think people will be surprised that we knew about the shit we created but did nothing about it (if there are people in 500 years time). However, politics never changes. I remember reading a book about inside the politics of the last Anglo-Saxon king and it could have been about politics today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?


It will mutate like everything mutates. People living in the middleages probably couldn't envisage the end of feudalism but then the black death came along and whaddaya know?! The price of Labour went up and peasants found they could tell the lord of the manor to fuck off and sell his labour to who they wanted. Global warming is promising something similar but whether it will be a positive or a negative is anyones guess.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 2:02:25 PM)

I believe that the root cause of the problems of exploitation and oppressive political systems that have existed over the generations are the self conciousness and the underlying if mostly unexpressed fear present in most human beings. Funnily enough I do NOT believe that wickedness or original sin plays a part.

So...

Right Wingers defend  what thay have got and support hierarchy and discipline.  Thats me.
Excessive self conciousness.

Left Wingers have too much sympathy for the underdog and end up supporting pie in the sky hopelessly idealist ic schemes.
Excessive fear.. Most go through this phase but become resigned and dismiss it. Me as a young man.

In my opinion since neither of these characteristics are going to change Utopian societies are most unlikely to ever exist.





juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 2:08:30 PM)

For most of humankind's time on planet Earth we have lived in small scale societies that had wealth redistribution as a part of the makeup of the group. If one person possessed too much wealth, acquired too much status, it would threaten the group so this was discouraged. It is only in the last few millenia that we have had large scale societies that functioned by having a pyramid structure in which the few ruled the many and acquired large vast holdings. Even after these sorts of societies were built, many lived outside of them, hunting and gathering instead of farming.

My point (which is presented in a very simplistic and general way) is that it is not inherently "natural" for people to live in a manner that we do today.




Real0ne -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 2:11:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I believe that the root cause of the problems of exploitation and oppressive political systems that have existed over the generations are the self conciousness and the underlying if mostly unexpressed fear present in most human beings. Funnily enough I do NOT believe that wickedness or original sin plays a part.

So...

Right Wingers defend  what thay have got and support hierarchy and discipline.  Thats me.
Excessive self conciousness.

Left Wingers have too much sympathy for the underdog and end up supporting pie in the sky hopelessly idealist ic schemes.
Excessive fear.. Most go through this phase but become resigned and dismiss it. Me as a young man.

In my opinion since neither of these characteristics are going to change Utopian societies are most unlikely to ever exist.


That doesnt make sense to me.  whats to protect? interest in the bank will still grow a fortune.  Do nothing and they will keep what they have.  What is there to protect if no one is breaking down their door or robbing the bank?




Stephann -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 2:43:40 PM)

1) Are humans inherently greedy?

Yep.  It's a survival instinct, reinforced by the immediate and tangible rewards for greed - more food, better food, more comfort.

2) Are politicians corrupted by power or inherent greed or something else?

Yes, yes, and yes.  Politicians don't come in cookie cutter molds, and the people they start out as aren't who they will end up when they retire.  The same can be said for anyone who holds a regular job, but the inherent risks associated with power make politics a particularly corrupting type of occupation. 

3) Who is to blame for the excesses of politicians - politicians or citizens or both?

Both and neither.  Sorry to be ambiguous, but it's for the same reasoning as above - the individual motivations behind politicians (and voters) are so vast and varied, that the end result becomes a composite index.  Newbie politician 2148 sees the other 20,000 politicians with their hand in the cookie jar, and reasons not only will his own corruption go unnoticed, refusing the status quo will actually ostracize him from the machinery.  Voter 18,756,019 notices the other hundred million voters split 30-70, and figures his vote is worthless, so does nothing to attempt to shake up the system.

4) Are we currently living in a passing phase of greed and corruption and in 500 years time people will look back on us as too stupid to understand the harm caused by destruction and exploitation?

I was thinking about that just yesterday, I think I posted that somewhere.  Yes, I think it's a phase.  Just 500 years ago, 'global warming' would have meant a big glass bowl meant to heat a room.  Five hundred years from now, if we haven't killed each other off, it's because we've learned to cooperate (or at least tolerate) each other.  I don't imagine paradise or Utopia, but I do imagine.... (see five)

5) Is capitalism the end of political history? i.e. will it be replaced by an improved model in the future?

... that we will have standardized currency, work responsibilities, and established a system where everyone has a measure of personal, civic, and military responsibilities (if needed.) Beyond those basic responsibilities, we will be free to engage in whatever past times we wish and have the means to attempt.  No rich, no poor, no hungry, no abandoned.  Sounds like a Marxist ideal, but the expectation would be that we are permitted to do anything we want, as long as we fulfill the minimum responsibilities of what we must.  In Australia, voters are required to show up and cast a ballot (even if they check 'none.')   This has lead to a culture where every responsible citizen expects to vote, and expects his neighbor to vote.  The same can be applied to everything - from mandatory employment (of some kind or another, for at least 2 hours a day) to civic responsibilities (keeping one's section of the sidewalk clear and in good repair) to adhering to environmental regulations (i.e. not burning toxic materials, to using approved forms of transportation, etc etc.) 

The framework and legal precedence for all of these elements is already in place, from the universal acceptance of the US dollar as a currency, to bans on certain types of automobiles, to proof of an attempt to find employment for unemployment claims.  As the West becomes more litigious, society will be looking more and more to democratically elected governments to accept a greater burden in all walks of our lives.  The laws are beginning to specify what behavior is permitted, rather than what behavior is prohibited.  It's just a matter of time before the rest follows.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 3:10:04 PM)

Juliaoceania says that at some time in the distant past cooperative rather than exploitative societies were the norm.

If this is true my theory  that the existance of such societies is unlikely must be wrong .
I would like an example of such a society. I can then have a "read" ad see what I think.

Karl Marx pointed, accurately in my opinion, to the socio/economic tensions present in agricultural and burgeoning industrial societies.




sophia37 -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 3:21:04 PM)

I refuse to worry about any of it anymore. I believe I've read the new ice age is coming. if not that, a comet dooms us. No comet? Global warming. Its over. I quit. lolololol 




juliaoceania -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 3:34:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Juliaoceania says that at some time in the distant past cooperative rather than exploitative societies were the norm.

If this is true my theory  that the existance of such societies is unlikely must be wrong .
I would like an example of such a society. I can then have a "read" ad see what I think.

Karl Marx pointed, accurately in my opinion, to the socio/economic tensions present in agricultural and burgeoning industrial societies.


Just because people have been doing things one way for a certain amount of time does not mean we are condemned to do them that way forever. If there is anything the history of humans has shown is that we are a dynamic species that changes through time, and that we will not be static in the future if our past is any kind of predictor.

I suppose this is why I am not a nihilist.

If you are not familiar with socialist anarchy I would recommend that you read about it, perhaps that is the economic and social model of the future. Perhaps some variation of it, or perhaps it will not happen at all.

BTW, many times civilizations have risen and fallen, even prehistoric ones. They are usually replaced with either feudal or tribal lifeways, but sometimes they regress back to hunters and gathers. It is possible we may head that way again if we degrade our environment to the extent that it can no longer support what we see today.




Stephann -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 3:41:08 PM)

Like the Native Americans?  Incas?  Polynesians?  Nawww, no way.





meatcleaver -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 3:57:09 PM)

Gerneral point

In the end what does it matter? We like to think our civilisation will go on forever but experience tells us it will collapse or reach a crisis point and mutate into something we won't be able to recognize because we refuse to do anything about the crisis staring us in the face.

The irony being, it is the establishment that refuses to change because they want to protect their vested interests that are swept away, the rest that have little or nothing to lose, adapt as best they can.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Humans and Greed (12/29/2006 9:56:57 PM)

I never knew you considered yourself a nihilist Julia...that's interesting to know.  Thanks for sharing. 




Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125