RE: forced masculinity

RE: forced masculinity (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 9:40:46 AM)
Yes, I'm willing to concede this point. I have trouble differentiating "flamefest" from spirited debate --- so I will just leave that up to you. I didn't really see it that way, and I don't want to argue the point because my viewpoint is far, far from universal. Anyhow, your point is understood, as much as a hard head like mine can grasp it. I'm just happy that history lives another day.

SweetDommes -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 10:02:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy What I don't understand is the desire to "Moderate" poster interaction such that nothing kinetic, real, challenging, and emotional ever happens. If people want a knock-down drag out fight on a thread, why not let them have it out? I think the key to moderation would be to insure that fights in the thread stayed in the thread --- as opposed to stopping the fights altogether. Here's another idea, why not have an UNMODERATED forum area or at least one with less, less strict moderation? I read the whole thread here, and I did not see anything that mandated the locking of the thread or overt intervention. Are posters really that dangerous and deranged that they cannot be trusted and hence must be treated as unruly children? I dunno. I believe that the reason you didn't see any reason to moderate this thread is because the parts that needed to be moderated have already been taken out. I was in this thread from the beginning and yes, there were definately things that needed to be moderated.

incognitoinmass -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 11:11:59 AM)
Not so much masculinity as manliness. Manly men. Less DiCaprio and more Crowe. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1141758460/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3778711-9836811?%5Fencoding=UTF8

UtopianRanger -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 1:21:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass Not so much masculinity as manliness. Manly men. Less DiCaprio and more Crowe. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1141758460/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3778711-9836811?%5Fencoding=UTF8 We agree on this - Others won't.... it's more than they bargained for! HAR!! - The Ranger

thetammyjo -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 2:13:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass Not so much masculinity as manliness. Manly men. Less DiCaprio and more Crowe. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1141758460/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3778711-9836811?%5Fencoding=UTF8 laughing Achilles as a politican or even a positive role model -- now that's comedy!

JohnWarren -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 2:49:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass Not so much masculinity as manliness. Manly men. Less DiCaprio and more Crowe. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1141758460/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3778711-9836811?%5Fencoding=UTF8 laughing Achilles as a politican or even a positive role model -- now that's comedy! This is the same Achilles who was sulking in his tent when his buddy, Patroclus, gets offed by the Trojans? Some role model.

cloudboy -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 4:05:27 PM)
quote: Achilles as a politican or even a positive role model -- now that's comedy! (tammyj) quote: This is the same Achilles who was sulking in his tent when his buddy, Patroclus, gets offed by the Trojans? Some role model. (John Warren) I will take up for Achilles here. #1, no one can question Achilles for his bravery and devotion to HIS men. #2 Achilles was not responsible for the death Patroclus. #3 Achilles was not so much sulking as he was protesting when he refused to fight. #4 Achilles had no personal reason to fight the Trojans and Agamemenon had offended his pride. Why then, would Achilles fight? Why shed the blood of his men for an ASS, Agamemnon. #5 Achilles respected the wishes of Priam, Hector's father, for a proper burial. Agamemnon would have just taken Priam prisoner and probably have killed him. I don't think it so right to condemn Achilles for being non conformist and for tiring of Agamemnon's tyranny and lust for power. And some who would question Achilles here might only think of their bent toward being overly prideful.

SimplyV -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 4:27:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Ok. So I have a fetish. It's masculinity. It isn't my only fetish, but it one of them and one that I rarely see discussed. Yes I'm bi. Yes I love feminity as well. But it seems that most sub boys that I cross are searching to be feminized and there is nothing wrong with that, we all have our kinks. My kink is masculanization. I feel a lot of men have lost touch of their masculinity. They have been "dénaturé" as we say in French, which is to take out of it's native environment, to deprive of its natural character, properties, etc, I like to bring a man in touch with his true masculinity. Not some macho overcompensation but what it is to be a true gentleman, to take pride in manhood, in strength, etc. Any other Domme share my fetish? - LA I haven't read the rest of this thread.. but yes.. I have a thing for masculinity. I'm not into sissification. That is a fetish for some.. but it is not mine. I am more into making them more confident in who they are, what they are, and how they look naturally. V

Aimtoplease101 -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 5:48:42 PM)
This is a very good-- and long overdue-- topic. I've always been surprised at the number of websites and amount of literature regarding the femdom/ malesub dynamic that turn on, or devolve to, sissification or feminization of the male. I would think that straight dominant women would want to dominate strong masculine men. If they were attracted to feminized men, why not simply pursue women? And where's the challenge/ gratification of dominating a "weaker" speciman? It's sort of like trouncing a poor tennis player on the court-- what's the point? Part of the interesting, and appealing, dynamic of submission to me is the fact that a physically less imposing woman is, in fact, imposing her will on a larger man. Something about the voluntary nature of the surrender is what makes it erotic. ATP

LadyCompassion -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 7:44:23 PM)
I also really enjoy a very masculine man. It is a great feeling to have such a large and strong person kneeling in front of you, completely submitting himself to you when he really could get up and crush you if he wanted to.

cloudboy -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 8:26:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven Please keep in mind that resurrecting a flame-fest because you feel that's "exactly what a MB should be", does not fall under the acceptable reasons for bumping a dead thread. XI As a board Moderator, you are vested with great power and authority, not unlike decisionmakers in other areas. In this respect I refer you to a quote from Salon on the 2006 Oscars, "I am beginning to think that the Oscars are doing for Hollywood what the Gap and Banana Republic did for American fashion, for a while -- which was to lock the whole chaotic scene into a flavorless, oatmeal-colored safety zone. Once a decision is made to be tasteful and risk-free, all spark, soul, variety, sleaze, spontaneity and fun go right out the window." http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/03/06/oscars/index.html

ModeratorEleven -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 9:58:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy "Once a decision is made to be tasteful and risk-free, all spark, soul, variety, sleaze, spontaneity and fun go right out the window." sigh So much for my hopes to avoid any further passive aggressive nonsense. If you honestly think that's what's happenning here because we won't let the forums turn into a free-for-all, by all means, don't let us keep you here. I'm sure you can find greener pastures elsewhere. I hear usenet is a hopping place these days. XI

mnottertail -> RE: forced masculinity (3/7/2006 10:09:07 PM)
I know I am treading on your edge most of the time Mod11, but am I to understand by this repartee (oh god I am sorry I elevated it to that) that there is a cry for a bannana republic forum as well as a Gap forum? If I may be so bold, I don't think that the numbers clamoring for such forums exist. On the other hand, you may be the voice of reason, as you have been with me time to time and are politely saying that's enough for a night. LOL Ron (P.S. I accused you of being somebody else)

thetammyjo -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 6:15:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: Achilles as a politican or even a positive role model -- now that's comedy! (tammyj) quote: This is the same Achilles who was sulking in his tent when his buddy, Patroclus, gets offed by the Trojans? Some role model. (John Warren) I will take up for Achilles here. #1, no one can question Achilles for his bravery and devotion to HIS men. #2 Achilles was not responsible for the death Patroclus. #3 Achilles was not so much sulking as he was protesting when he refused to fight. #4 Achilles had no personal reason to fight the Trojans and Agamemenon had offended his pride. Why then, would Achilles fight? Why shed the blood of his men for an ASS, Agamemnon. #5 Achilles respected the wishes of Priam, Hector's father, for a proper burial. Agamemnon would have just taken Priam prisoner and probably have killed him. I don't think it so right to condemn Achilles for being non conformist and for tiring of Agamemnon's tyranny and lust for power. And some who would question Achilles here might only think of their bent toward being overly prideful. Achilles is certainly a hero in the ancient sense -- none of these ancient Greek heroes are very heroic by modern standards. Achilles was selfish, very selfish, he went to war because he had to and because he wanted booty -- he was denied booty (rightly or wrongly) and he refused to fight unless he got said booty (a daughter of a local priest by the way) back. Not even his own army supported his sulking and thus his friend (or lover if you believe later versions) pretended to be him and went out to fight and died. He killed Hector out of pure anger and revenge -- Priam had to literally beg for his son's body back. My all social and religious rites the way that Achilles acted with Hector's body was horrible. Achilles was celebrated for his might in fighting, because he was the son of a goddess, and because he "lived" through a great war NOT because he was a role model of what a good Greek man should strive toward. Greek heroes live beyond and above the rules of society, that is part of what made them heroes, and as such they were not role models for any living man. In fact, he was a good example of what to be wary of thus I think his entire selfish attitude is one of the reasons that he is killed in such a pathetic way with one arrow from love-enslaved Paris/Alexander. My problem with said book is only the note in the write up about it on Amazon that the author uses Achilles as a good role model and that entirely misunderstands Achilles and other Greek heroes in their context. Modern versions of the legends romanticize them and soften them cause otherwise most of us could not stomach them. And yes, I have taught Greek heroes several time and it one of the most difficult things to get students to understand because they so want to romanticize and use modern definitions of heroes. Note: I'm not commenting on the entire book because I have not read it and therefore cannot comment. Want me to comment on it? Send me the book or ask KinkyBooks.com to get me a copy to review and I'll be glad to do so. I suspect, like most such books, it will have good and bad research, good and bad points, and be of value to those inclined to similar conclusions more than able to change minds.

GddssBella -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 6:41:47 AM)
G'morning all: As happy as I am to see an old favorite resurrected, I'm dismayed at the direction the discussion has already taken. cloudboy, please remember that you are a guest on this forum and as such should act appropriately. The unnecessary dissension is not called for. In answer to your original query, see this link to my earlier post. Lady Angelika, the OP and who's profile no longer exists, felt it expressed the point she was seeking to establish quite thoroughly. Her wit, charm, and poise are sorely missed. Interpretations of Masculinity Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

incognitoinmass -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 9:49:47 AM)
Well, a review would certainly be interesting. However I should point out that Professor Mansfield's book is not about Achilles, but about Manliness. He uses Achilles as an example of someone who exhibits the traits, good and bad, that we have typically associated with manliness. He challenged his boss, Agamemnon, who had taken his girlfriend from him. He didn't so much make a complaint against him as to . . . say that what Agamemnon had done was the act of an inferior person, and that only true heroes, the men of virtue like Achilles, are fit to rule." In other words, Achilles raised the stakes and resolved to defend a cause larger than himself--the manly action par excellence. --------------------------- "Oopponents of manliness have tried to depose the term altogether, in favor of “masculinity.” They want to expose manliness as a mere social invention, a rationale for male power. "But this, Mansfield observes, begs the question of why men have always had the power in the first place. He finds the answer in manliness, which he defines as “confidence in the face of risk,” an “easy assumption of authority” that leads to an abundance of corollary qualities stereotypically associated with the male of the species. If the womanly tendency is to seek intimacy and personal warmth, the manly tendency is to dominate. "Mansfield concedes that the manly man is not always appealing. He can be willful and boastful, and patronizing toward women. But these annoyances are part of a package that makes the average Joe capable of greater heroism and command than the average Josephine. More open to facing risk, he is more likely to gain and wield power and to make his mark in the world. There can be manly women—Elizabeth I and Margaret Thatcher come to mind—but they are rare." http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12103069_1 John Wayne or Alan Alda?

cloudboy -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 10:31:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Achilles is certainly a hero in the ancient sense -- none of these ancient Greek heroes are very heroic by modern standards. Achilles was selfish, very selfish, he went to war because he had to and because he wanted booty -- he was denied booty (rightly or wrongly) and he refused to fight unless he got said booty (a daughter of a local priest by the way) back. Isn't that a bit of an over simplification? It was not about "the booty" as much as it was about resenting and disrespecting Agamemnon, no? quote: Not even his own army supported his sulking and thus his friend (or lover if you believe later versions) pretended to be him and went out to fight and died. He killed Hector out of pure anger and revenge -- Priam had to literally beg for his son's body back. My all social and religious rites the way that Achilles acted with Hector's body was horrible. Achilles was emotional and personal. When the fight became personal to him, he sought revenge ----- and I'd say somewhat true to Achilles nature, he reacted strongly --- so strongly that he defied the ground rules of common decency. But, Priam did get through to him. Achilles did have the humanity to share grief with Priam. quote: Achilles was celebrated for his might in fighting, because he was the son of a goddess, and because he "lived" through a great war NOT because he was a role model of what a good Greek man should strive toward. Greek heroes live beyond and above the rules of society, that is part of what made them heroes, and as such they were not role models for any living man. In fact, he was a good example of what to be wary of thus I think his entire selfish attitude is one of the reasons that he is killed in such a pathetic way with one arrow from love-enslaved Paris/Alexander. I think Achilles was admired because he was GREAT, and because he was the mightiest warrior of his time. Being a role model, I might argue, is besides the point. Maybe that is what you mean by Modern v. Ancient values, but even today, poor role models are often recognized for their greatness and prowess. quote: My problem with said book is only the note in the write up about it on Amazon that the author uses Achilles as a good role model and that entirely misunderstands Achilles and other Greek heroes in their context. Modern versions of the legends romanticize them and soften them cause otherwise most of us could not stomach them. And yes, I have taught Greek heroes several time and it one of the most difficult things to get students to understand because they so want to romanticize and use modern definitions of heroes. Note: I'm not commenting on the entire book because I have not read it and therefore cannot comment. Want me to comment on it? Send me the book or ask KinkyBooks.com to get me a copy to review and I'll be glad to do so. I suspect, like most such books, it will have good and bad research, good and bad points, and be of value to those inclined to similar conclusions more than able to change minds. Its easier to just talk about the ILLIAD itself. Although it was just a B movie, Brad Pitt was a pretty good Achilles (maybe a bit too much of a pretty boy) in TROY. The scene where he threw a spear several hundred yards from the beach head through a Trojan soldier's neck was amazing.

thetammyjo -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 10:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: incognitoinmass John Wayne or Alan Alda? \ Personally, no contest, based on the characters they've played not on the men themselves. Alan Alda all the way. No only did he play these funny characters who also had a nice high sex drive and could stand up for themselves and others but he's also currently the host of a show on PBS where he investigates different scientific stuff for the layperson. So he could make me laugh, give me all the sex I want, stand up for what he believes is right but he could find me information I need through his contacts. Neither example of "man" is feminine but one is more stereotypically macho. I can wave around a gun, ride a horse, and punch out someone on my own thank you very much Mr. Wayne's characters. As for the reviewer quoted I'll just say this individual needs to reread the Illiad and not just watch "Troy" starring Brad Pitt. Better yet, take a good classic mythology course that actually gets into the character and value of Achilles in the Greek world. Yeah, one of my pet peeves since I study classical mythology and my dissertation is in this field. I'm glad though that Achilles isn't the focus of said book. I don't know if I could even force myself to read it if he were the model of manliness for the entire theory. I'm going to stop now before I start spinning off into other classical and technological stuff which truly aren't important to the general idea of what type of men can be submissive or slaves and which types are more or less valued by different people.

cloudboy -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 11:05:29 AM)
quote: Achilles I think he's a great, archetypal character --- one that illustrates the complexities of greatness and character and how they do not easily roll up into one neat little package. Greatness is affecting because oftentimes tragedy and the darker sides of human nature track along with it. Hence, Achilles is such a memorable character.

thetammyjo -> RE: forced masculinity (3/8/2006 11:34:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: Achilles I think he's a great, archetypal character --- one that illustrates the complexities of greatness and character and how they do not easily roll up into one neat little package. Greatness is affecting because oftentimes tragedy and the darker sides of human nature track along with it. Hence, Achilles is such a memorable character. He is certainly that and over the centuries various writers and philosophers have used him. In the ancient world his reputation sunk lower and lower (some writers even removed him from the entire Trojan War!) and it wasn't until the late middle ages that he was sought for positive qualities at all. He was not a role model of a good man, however, and that is my problem with the small quote on Amazon.com about the book. When I taught my course of ancient Greek men, my students made a very interesting observance. They noticed that many of the heroes had high levels of what the Greeks classified as feminine traits -- being emotional, losing control, drinking too much, not respecting the established heirarchies, wanting a lot of sex, etc. I think that was an amazing insight and I hope in the future to look further into it because would not be surprised if being a hero and living outside established rules allow these heros to live also outside what the Greeks considered "masculine" and "feminine" roles. I never should have responded to the part of about Achilles cause it has so side tracked this thread.

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