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War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 7:04:10 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		War loan paid off....... which loan? See link from that biased news reporting organisation the BBC on the WWII war loan to Britain by US. Was this an example of win - win or something else?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4757181.stm
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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 7:39:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I do not know whether the loan, post WW2, was good or bad,  but I do know that prior to Lend Lease beginning the UK had to pay for everything from the the US , machine tools in particular and the US sent a delegation to check because they did not believe we were dollar impoverished. ie foreign currency broke.

I am not a little Englander who believes that it was the responsibilty of the US to finance our War expeditions. I just post this because I know it is true. Many at the BBC probably are little Englanders.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 8:01:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		For all that fell upon us we only have ourselves to blame. We didn't have to join in WWI, we were not obliged to join in because of some treaty with Belgium, we did it to thump the Germans and got more than we bargained for. Everything leads from there which is why I'm fucking pissed at Blair and his believing in war solves problems and sharing Bush's delusions.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 8:05:01 AM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		To me there seems to be a reasonable balance in the financing of the war. The WWII war dept was finally paid off yesterday. The American tradition and ability to make significant profit from global conflicts simply continued the British system used during the 17th through 19th Century of financing other people to fight their wars e.g. Austira, Prussia, Russia, Mahrajas etc. The terms of the loans whilst not as favourable as the Marshal plan seems very equitable and likewise the british decision to not pay off early seems sensible. What I would be interested in knowing is how or if the supplies provided to Russia and China during WWII were financed by loans or gifts?

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 8:07:49 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Certainly WW1 was a devastating indictment of the collapse of morality in Europe. Paradoxically at a time when the European elites thought of themselves as honourable worthy and civilised  and only dimly perceived, if at all, the economic juggernaut that, post Civil War, had been created over the Atlantic.

Many Europeans elites still cant get over that. lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/30/2006 8:11:29 AM >

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 11:21:19 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Well the really good news is that next year, we have no payment to make. The recent payments have been of the order of GBP 30 billion each year from what I heard on the news, so with around 27 million workers in the UK, thats just over a hundred quid less tax to pay next year.

Shame we're spending it faster than that all over the world in some new wars, but I take it that our support is being charged out at a suitable mark up, so it should be fine.

E

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 11:36:16 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		We have already classified you as "slow pay" in our accounts receivable department. Your net-30 terms are revoked.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 11:48:25 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Lady E; your maths has gone completely wibbly wobbly.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 12:15:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmm, so we still owe them a few quid from WW1 and it hasn't been written off. Well, fuck that. According to that link someone owes us £2.3bn (in 1918 terms) so if they're short of a few bob over there they can send their debt collectors round to our debtors and get the money off them. It'll be the French too, two birds with one stone for the Americans :-)

caitlyn, we've disbanded our old business and started up under a different name. Great Britain no longer exists, we are now Great Britons Inc. Thus, the slate is wiped clean. Any chance of one of those 2% starting up loans you do over there to help us with our new venture? We will endeavour to repay you this time, you can take our word for it.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/30/2006 12:18:14 PM >

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 12:26:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

For all that fell upon us we only have ourselves to blame. We didn't have to join in WWI, we were not obliged to join in because of some treaty with Belgium, we did it to thump the Germans and got more than we bargained for. Everything leads from there which is why I'm fucking pissed at Blair and his believing in war solves problems and sharing Bush's delusions.


True enough. The British Government had a nice little set up with the French Government in Africa and Asia. The one power who could challenge this was Germany as they were industrialising at a rapid rate. It was in both the British and French economic interests to stop them in their tracks.

It's been argued that the Germans were exceptionally militaristic at that time which is incorrect as the French were spending more on the military than any other European power.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 12:27:09 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		as a percentage of GDP.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 1:17:22 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
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Status: offline 		We didn't have to join in WWI, we were not obliged to join in because of some treaty with Belgium, we did it to thump the Germans and got more than we bargained for. Everything leads from there which is why I'm fucking pissed at Blair and his believing in war solves problems and sharing Bush's delusions.


MC what about the 1837 treaty guaranteeing Belgium neutrality signed by Britain and Prussia. Are you implying that international treaties and agreements signed according to international laws should be broken at whim .........I'm shocked that you could side with the Germans and their dismissal of the treaty as a "scrap of paper"  ....... thats the sort of thing that Bush would do.......are you turning into a Bushite...........!!! LOL
 
Is WWI & WWII a single conflict with a 21 year break or two seperate conflcts?  !!!
 
Was the Marshal plan an act of selfless generosity or the only way to ensure that the world had money to spend in American factories?  

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 1:27:06 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I haven't actually read the treaty but I read in a book (desperately trying to think of it, its on my shelf somewhere but can't find it at this moment) that the treaty didn't obligate Britain to enter the war and that this was a myth created to support what turned out to be a stupid decision. It was Britain's entry into the war that expanded it from being another continental war into being a world war. I'll stand being corrected but I'm going to see if I can find the book I was thinking of.

EDITED: If we are talking about venal self interest it was in Britain's interest and watch Germany and France slug it out. It had long been Britain's foreign policy to keep Germany (Prussia etc) and France enemies.

Still looking for the book.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/30/2006 1:36:40 PM >

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 1:28:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac
Was the Marshal plan an act of selfless generosity or the only way to ensure that the world had money to spend in American factories?  


There is no doubt about it, Europe could have swung either way after the war, towards the Russia or the US and there was no clear cut majority either way.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/30/2006 1:38:14 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		I've never seen a lot of detail about the treaty but a perverse sense of duty combined with concern that France would succum to further defeat similar to Franco Prussian War with Germany then in control of Channel ports seems to have been motivators for Britain.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/31/2006 4:42:40 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Is WWI & WWII a single conflict with a 21 year break or two seperate conflcts?  !!!
 


Two separate conflicts.

Much of the unprecedented violence in the first half of the 20th century had three central themes: ethnic conflict, rapid economic change (both growth and recession) and imperialism. This doesn't mean all the violence can be lumped in as one conflict.

The powder kegs were in places like Central, Eastern and Southern Europe with their high degree of mixed ethnic groups, imperial powers (centralised power enabling the mobilisation of vast numbers of men and machinery) and economic change with its subsequent ethnic conflict (within empires) for a share of the pie.



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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/31/2006 4:55:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The German officer class were proclaiming they will get even with France as early as 1920 and planning for it not much later. The humiliation by the French with its imposition of war retributions (wrong word. Too early!) and occupation of Alsace and the brutality and the scorn in which they treated Germans at the time only reinforced German determination of this which accumulated in the humilation of France by Hitler's procession through Paris which followed Napoleon's route. WWI had not ended in the eyes of the German Officer class and would not end until France had been defeated.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/31/2006 5:18:40 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		That is the popular story but if this was the reason there would have been endless wars between certain countries continuously wanting "to get even with each other". For example, the Austrian/Prussian war or the Sino/Russian war or the British/French wars of the 19th centuries. If the answer is what you say then these countries would have continued with their violence until the end of the world.

Also, the popular theory does not explain why Goverments were able to mobilise huge numbers of men and machinery. Governments and officers gave the orders but men followed and it is understanding why men follow that will give you answers to why wars/violence takes place.

Another key point is Nazi doctrine was dictated by racial hierarchies and lebensraum. Their fight was in the East and they cynically manipulated the works of Darwin and Nietzsche to arrive at much of what they believed i.e. a struggle between ethnic Germans and neighbouring ethnic groups - Slavs and Jews. The war in the West was an attempt by the Germans to avoid a war on two fronts as they knew they couldn't win such a war i.e. the attack on France was a pre-emptive strike and the real war aims were in the East.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/31/2006 5:19:07 AM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		NG

It is the point MC makes that I was getting at, also I think it was the US president at the time if the WWI Armistace and afterwards that warned that if the penalties placed on Germany were to great that there would not be a long term piece. It was the lack of fairness in the WWI Armistice that allowed Hitler to justify some of his initial moves (prior to Polish Invasion) and which ensured the Army remained supporting him.


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RE: War Loan Paid by Britain - 12/31/2006 5:30:09 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Dtesmoac,

Fair enough, I'm just throwing a few more ideas into the pot.

By the time Germany invaded Poland her economic recovery was complete. She had also reclaimed much of the land lost as a result of WW1 and more. 

Hitler was a half-wit who believed ethnic Germans must subjugate ethnic slavs or it would be the other way around. Much of Nazi doctrine and war aims was built on this basic neanderthal premise. 19th and early 20th century history was rife with notions of racial hierarchies and supremacy.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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