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opinions please? - 12/30/2006 10:24:28 PM

Phoenix2raven

Posts: 347
Joined: 10/14/2006
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raven says: i'm a mentor to submissives and slaves, but i've hit an area where i have no idea what advice to give the submissive in question ...

the situation: both Dom and sub are extremely similar, and they have that trait of talking excitedly at the same time, finishing each other's sentences. which seems all happy happy until things get emotionally intense in a negative way, and then any interruption is seen as negative by the Dom, even though both are communicating as they always do. (that's not the problem! i leave it to the sub to figure out how not to interrupt her Dom and vice versa.) the problem i'm asked to advise on is, the Dom said to the sub:
"i should use the bit to gag you and just take it out when i want you to talk."
- but NOT said in a joking way. Dom in question knows sub has childhood abuse triggers related to this. sub in question is triggered out of her mind and can't speak to him..

i have no idea what to advise, because what the Dom said skeeves me out, honestly. as always, i look to unbiased views when i get stuck as a mentor. any ideas? TIA!

< Message edited by Phoenix2raven -- 12/30/2006 10:26:34 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 10:27:17 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Well, not to be flippant, but this one is fairly easy: therapy. Really. If both are running on childhood triggers in such a way as to form a negative feedback loop, therapy is really the best solution in my opinion.

Master Fire

_____________________________

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(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 2

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 10:34:25 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

i second masterfire's suggestion of therapy.

i was just talking about an issue that's very personal and touchy for me on another forum, and one of the things i mentioned in my post was the fact that about the only thing i willingly keep control of in my relationship with him is my ability to walk out the door when i feel he's no longer making decisions with my interests at heart - meaning, when he callously does something with the intention to truly hurt or endanger me, out of selfishness or malice (rather than ignorance or momentary stupidity).

if i were this submissive, and my dominant knew that this was something that triggered a post-traumatic reaction to childhood abuse for me, and he willingly and callously threatened something like that, i would be very worried about the state of the relationship. the first thing i would do would be to write him a letter reminding him that this is something that is very personal and painful for me, and telling him that i'm willing to work out other methods of solving the issue of heated discussion - and there are many. and that if he chooses not to do that, perhaps it's time for couple's counseling. and if he still thinks that it's appropriate to disregard such an important issue with me, then there's a very real possibility i would be begging release.

i guess that suffering from ptsd myself, and having dealt with the effects of it in my relationship with him, i tend to take it very seriously in how it interacts within d/s. we are approaching trying out new things that have been triggers for me, like knife play, but always with the knowledge that it's something that must be handled more gently than other types of heavy play. yes, it is the submissive's role to please and obey the dominant, but it is also the dominant's role to care for the submissive, and this is something that is extremely clear-cut and potentially incredibly damaging.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 3

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 10:56:16 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

What they said. Therapy, therapy, therapy.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 4

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:01:57 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I'm gonna say that at least one of them needs to notice when things get heated and learn to turn the temperature down- they need to be able to step back and laugh at the situation and recognize that they are both being silly and over-heated and to just move on from it.

Therapy might be good for her if this is as intense as it gets at a single comment, but both need to just be able to step back and take perspective. Occasional spats can be fine in any relationship, but should not become a regular issue or something that can cause deep problems like this.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 5

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:08:28 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Honestly,

He does not need to gag her if she has issues. He needs to dominate himself and remove himself from her presense until she can get it together. Maybe put her in timeout.

One thing that works for me is knowing that I will get my turn to speak, and staying quiet untl I get it. People do interupt when they get emotional, and to expect her to be perfect when she is adrenalized in a disagreement is not fair. I bet this dominant interupts her when it is her turn to speak too, which is also unfair. Now Ds is not "fair" necessarily, but if a dominant did not give allowances for my humanity and did not abide by the same manners he expected from me and lead by example I would not respect that.

He should ask himself if he interupts her when he gets upset, because if he does, that means he expects her to control herself, but he does not want to control himself... which is very undomly to me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 6

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:14:06 PM

babygrl84

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline

i have triggers of my own that set off certain issues for me, my prior Dom knew these triggers, and if we came across one, he would step back and determine if it was something he wanted to try and address with whats called "re-enactment" therapy or not. sometimes it helped sometimes it made the situation worse. when it helped we let it go, when it made things worse He would then take a Compasionate role, calm me down and talk to me. i think the sub and Dom need to find away to work things out with out getting to hastey on the situation.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:21:00 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Physiological Responses to Anger
Emotions are directly related to feelings and thoughts, yet there is also a connection between the physical reactions and the emotions we experience. Think about the times you have felt your pulse race or your mouth go dry. These physical changes probably occurred while you were experiencing a strong emotion, such as anger. There are definite physical responses caused by anger.
All human beings have a nervous system that automatically reacts to strong emotions such as anger or fear. Think of anger as an emergency signal for the body. To meet this emergency, the nervous system activates and prepares the body. Think of something in the past that angered you and then try thinking of how your body responded to that anger.
Usually the body’s first response to anger is an increased breathing rate. This is the body’s way of taking in more oxygen. When you breathe faster, your heart pumps faster. This increases the pressure on your arteries. When you are angry, you might break into a sweat. This helps cool your body. If you look into a mirror, you may find your pupils are dilated.

Your face is likely to either turn pale or flushed. When you are angry, your hands can also turn cold. A lot of energy is used by your body when you are angry. You might find yourself shaking. Physically unfit individuals may experience pains in the chest. It is healthy to blow off steam once in a while, but repeated anger can deplete the energy reserves in the body. Your body’s health is jeopardized when it has the extra stress of anger feelings. Anger can cause stress on the body’s major systems such as the heart, nerves, or respiratory functions.
Recognize the physical signs and be aware of the effects anger has on the health of the body. By being more aware of how anger affects the body, you can make efforts to prevent damage to your health. http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/familyworks/anger-01.html

I posted this because people are not always "rational" or thinking with their "logical" mind when they get mad.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to babygrl84)

Post #: 8

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:23:35 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

What I see, if I am understanding correctly, is a Dom who finds it perfectly okay for his sub to interrupt him as their basic way of communicating, and then when she feels negatively about something, she is to forego her approved basic way of communicating and find another.

Huh.

So an existing pattern of behavior goes unchecked and approved and therefore becomes her habit. This reminds me of parents who let their little ones run rampant in the kitchen during dinner time when they should be sitting at the table instead....only to yell at them and spank them in a restaurant for doing the very same thing that was okay to do at home.

I think they need to change their conversation habits.. I went through the same thing Julia mentioned. I had to realize I would have my opportunity to speak, and that helped me overcome my interrupting habits (being in a large family taught me such bad habits). Master can interrupt whenever he wants, however, but I will always have an opportunity to express myself. I would say this girl's Dom should learn and teach her the art of conversation, rather than reprimand her publically for doing what he has approved her to do.

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 9

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:37:29 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix2raven

raven says: i'm a mentor to submissives and slaves, but i've hit an area where i have no idea what advice to give the submissive in question ...

the situation: both Dom and sub are extremely similar, and they have that trait of talking excitedly at the same time, finishing each other's sentences. which seems all happy happy until things get emotionally intense in a negative way, and then any interruption is seen as negative by the Dom, even though both are communicating as they always do. (that's not the problem! i leave it to the sub to figure out how not to interrupt her Dom and vice versa.) the problem i'm asked to advise on is, the Dom said to the sub:
"i should use the bit to gag you and just take it out when i want you to talk."
- but NOT said in a joking way. Dom in question knows sub has childhood abuse triggers related to this. sub in question is triggered out of her mind and can't speak to him..

i have no idea what to advise, because what the Dom said skeeves me out, honestly. as always, i look to unbiased views when i get stuck as a mentor. any ideas? TIA!

What skeeves me out here is that some deeply upset person gives what appears to be a very one-sided story to a "mentor" who then recasts it to a bunch of strangers anticipating unbiased views in return. Then--absent any effort to get something vaguely resembling the whole story--some of those strangers decide they are qualified to prescribe.

(in reply to Phoenix2raven)

Post #: 10

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:48:46 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix2raven

raven says: i'm a mentor to submissives and slaves, but i've hit an area where i have no idea what advice to give the submissive in question ...

the situation: both Dom and sub are extremely similar, and they have that trait of talking excitedly at the same time, finishing each other's sentences. which seems all happy happy until things get emotionally intense in a negative way, and then any interruption is seen as negative by the Dom, even though both are communicating as they always do. (that's not the problem! i leave it to the sub to figure out how not to interrupt her Dom and vice versa.) the problem i'm asked to advise on is, the Dom said to the sub:
"i should use the bit to gag you and just take it out when i want you to talk."
- but NOT said in a joking way. Dom in question knows sub has childhood abuse triggers related to this. sub in question is triggered out of her mind and can't speak to him..

i have no idea what to advise, because what the Dom said skeeves me out, honestly. as always, i look to unbiased views when i get stuck as a mentor. any ideas? TIA!

What skeeves me out here is that some deeply upset person gives what appears to be a very one-sided story to a "mentor" who then recasts it to a bunch of strangers anticipating unbiased views in return. Then--absent any effort to get something vaguely resembling the whole story--some of those strangers decide they are qualified to prescribe.

erm, this is a forum. pretty much every post asking for advice ends up like this, particularly because it's a forum and, well, we're all giving advice from our own povs. if people don't realize that everyone who responds to their post isn't a kink-aware professional in the medical and mental health fields with intimate knowledge of the situation, and don't respond accordingly, they shouldn't even be allowed to turn on a computer.

in other words...i thought the fact that this -was- a forum full of people of all opinions and levels of experience pretty much tagged on an unspoken, "take this with a shakerful of salt." that said, i doubt myself or any of the other posters actually think we know everything about the situation and therefore are qualified to tell everyone what is and isn't the right course of action. we're just throwing out ideas and thoughts based on personal experience. is that so wrong?

p.s. by unbiased, i think she was referring to people whose views are not skewed by personal involvement in the situation at hand.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 12/30/2006 11:51:00 PM >

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 11

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:53:03 PM

Grlwithboy

Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline

I'm a New Yorker, interruption just means I'm paying attention. Although I'm the D in my relationship, we both benefit using the old touchy feely therapy "talking stick" thing. Whoever has the stick has the floor, the other person has to wait and listen till they're handed the stick.

It works in a D/s rel. if the D is willing to concede to fair play and really allow a turn. I'm not sure someone who sees a gag as a solution is going to graduate to the stick method without therapy or other counsel from a disinterested party.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 12

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:53:11 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
What skeeves me out here is that some deeply upset person gives what appears to be a very one-sided story to a "mentor" who then recasts it to a bunch of strangers anticipating unbiased views in return. Then--absent any effort to get something vaguely resembling the whole story--some of those strangers decide they are qualified to prescribe.

Oh I dunno, Noah, when have we as a collective group ever been unbiased?

But you are right about the doling out of advice on a partial story. I usually hate when that happens, and here I've gone and done it, even if I did attempt to confirm said scenario. Color me bad....

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 13

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:54:26 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Master can interrupt whenever he wants, however, but I will always have an opportunity to express myself. I would say this girl's Dom should learn and teach her the art of conversation, rather than reprimand her publically for doing what he has approved her to do.

Technically he can interupt me too, but if he did it all the time after I listened to him express himself for a good long while, I would wonder if I had more restraint than he does, and if I thought that the case it would not bode well for me and him exchanging power. I am not saying how people should do things, but there are repercussions for expecting a person to control their behavior more than you control your own... and one of these things one can expect is that the submissive one will start to wonder how much more control she has over herself in other arenas as well.

Just because someone CAN do something doesn't mean it is wise to...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 14

RE: opinions please? - 12/30/2006 11:59:07 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix2raven

raven says: i'm a mentor to submissives and slaves, but i've hit an area where i have no idea what advice to give the submissive in question ...

the situation: both Dom and sub are extremely similar, and they have that trait of talking excitedly at the same time, finishing each other's sentences. which seems all happy happy until things get emotionally intense in a negative way, and then any interruption is seen as negative by the Dom, even though both are communicating as they always do. (that's not the problem! i leave it to the sub to figure out how not to interrupt her Dom and vice versa.) the problem i'm asked to advise on is, the Dom said to the sub:
"i should use the bit to gag you and just take it out when i want you to talk."
- but NOT said in a joking way. Dom in question knows sub has childhood abuse triggers related to this. sub in question is triggered out of her mind and can't speak to him..

i have no idea what to advise, because what the Dom said skeeves me out, honestly. as always, i look to unbiased views when i get stuck as a mentor. any ideas? TIA!

What skeeves me out here is that some deeply upset person gives what appears to be a very one-sided story to a "mentor" who then recasts it to a bunch of strangers anticipating unbiased views in return. Then--absent any effort to get something vaguely resembling the whole story--some of those strangers decide they are qualified to prescribe.

True, I shoulda thought it through before posting what I did. For some reason I thought the dominant may read the advice himself, but I see that this may not be the case...

So disregard what I said because it was more for the dominant to read than the submissive.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 15

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:02:50 AM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

i apologize if my first reply came across as hostile, noah...i guess i'm just exhausted and it's late...and mostly i just don't think any of us can ever know the entire situation, as we only ever hear one or two sides of it, so i think we're all doing the best we can.

just wanted to apologize if my earlier post was volatile, as that was not my intent.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 16

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:06:13 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

True, I shoulda thought it through before posting what I did. For some reason I thought the dominant may read the advice himself, but I see that this may not be the case...

So disregard what I said because it was more for the dominant to read than the submissive.

All is not lost. There is some interesting dialogue going on, regardless. :)

As for your post on interrupting, I agree. If he walked all over all our conversations, I would be less inclined to even talk. He can interrupt me, and he sometimes exercises that right, but it is not commonplace. I should probably have stated that.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:07:12 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Sinergy too...smiles (rare though)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 18

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:37:41 AM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

FR: I too am a bit "skeeved" by the willingness to jump in by the collective and pack these people off to therapy (even though I'm not adverse to that solution, and besides, I derive certain indirect economic benefits when people seek therapy! So go for it. 4 times a week to start, at $175/hour, please. But I digress...)

Any way, the "talking stick" is an excellent, cognitive approach to help people in emotional discourse keep from running over eachother (verbally). Another tactic: A simple count to 10, quietly, internally, before replying. No interruptions. Person A speaks. Pauses. Person B counts down, and replies. A waits for B to finish. A counts...replies.

It is amazing how this diffuses the "rush" impulse.

Cautionary aside to Grlwithboy: Do not assume, as most New Yorkers do, that when someone pauses before replying to you they are inattentive, stupid and/or retarded. Many big city types when confronted with someone from ... oh...say...Minnesota, Or Wyoming think that there is something wrong with the person because they talk slowly, and breathe between sentences. This is simply normal for them. Listen. They might be teaching you something you need to know.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 19

RE: opinions please? - 12/31/2006 12:42:35 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
Any way, the "talking stick" is an excellent, cognitive approach to help people in emotional discourse keep from running over eachother (verbally). Another tactic: A simple count to 10, quietly, internally, before replying. No interruptions. Person A speaks. Pauses. Person B counts down, and replies. A waits for B to finish. A counts...replies.

If I handed my Master a "talking stick" he'd smack me with it. He talks when he wants to talk, lol.

On the other hand, my ex husband and I tried that little exercise and I almost beat the shit out of him with it. Seems he didn't like letting go of the stick and just talked continuously. Ah well, it works in some cases, I'm sure.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 20

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