RE: Handling Feminist Friends (Full Version)

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AquaticSub -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/12/2007 8:11:23 PM)

Whoa... imagine my surprise to see this thread back up on the first list! I appreciate the two cents being added. I really want to send your response to my friend as I think it would be interesting reading for him.




Najakcharmer -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/12/2007 8:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Today I had the most uncomfortable situation of being told that I'm "setting women back"


Nope, that is what he is doing by attempting to deny you the right to choose.  Last I checked, you were a consenting adult in her right mind who had the right to do anything she pleased with her own body and mind, including giving it to someone else in the bounds of a loving adult D/s relationship. 

It's wrong to force all women to be submissive.  It's equally wrong to force them all to be dominant.  I suggest telling Mr. Suffrage to STFU and stop disrespecting your rights and your competence to make your own decisions.




novicecourtesan -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/12/2007 8:58:50 PM)

AquaticSub:

I'm not sure,  but I'm guessing it won't change his mind. You can tell him that I've written books and articles and women's issues and have read and agreed with many academic feminst writings, including Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Erica Jong, Susan Sontag, Camille Paglia (who would HATE that word), and others, and that he would never guess that I'm a submissive, but he'll probably still discount the view as coming from a "deviant." I would agree with my fellow posters that he's in denial about his bdsm and can't reconcile it with his more vanilla fantasies of romance, marriage and family. As a result, he compartmentalizes it into his "kinky sex" category and ignores it. If you've ever felt the time is right you can tell him what I've discovered when I was doing that--to accept it. This feels dirty to me, outside the "norm" and very illicit. Which is exactly why I know I'm in the right place--it's one of my turnons.

Otherwise, I agree with my fellow posters. It's okay if they don't understand and don't get it, but it is outright unacceptable for him to demean your choice. (especially when he's using you to get in on the emotion-free bdsm sex). THAT is anti-feminist. And though the label of feminism has been corrupted, take it back. I am a feminist of the 70's, (even though I was 6 when it ended), when it was a fucking hard struggle to be safe and treated civilly and make a living and escape abuse under the law.  I don't have time for these namby-pamby "feminists" who see a taste for bondage or discipline as a sign of weakness and nitpick over who does the housework, or wear slutty outfits but don't like being called sluts, or complaining about how men are incompetent/lazy/sex-crazed. And that was well before I knew about myself. Have you noticed that all their complaints about men are the same? Go to a comedy club--all the jokes about male-females are the same. Same complaints. Progress?

Feminism and submission/slavery are NOT incompatible. You just define the terms yourself, don't explain to anyone who won't support you, and avoid those who don't have enough sense to treat you and your choices with respect. Freedom is not ignoring the boundaries and pretending that they're not there. Freedom is knowing that you can see them clearly, and that they are just illusions that you are choosing to respect.

good luck to you and congratulations on your relationship!




Lashra -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/13/2007 4:51:03 AM)

I am a feminist and I frankly do not care how others live their lives as long as they aren't out trying to have the rights we've worked so hard for taken away. The thing about rights is if you dont want them you can ignore them but once they are taken away people do suffer.

If you want to be a slave or submissive go for  it effects me in no way. Perhaps you should remind your friends of this? Just tell them you are doing what makes you happy and lo mind their own affairs. This is what I tell people who try to tell me I should be more submissive to my "man". It doesnt work for me or him.

~Lashra




AquaticSub -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/13/2007 6:57:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

If you want to be a slave or submissive go for  it effects me in no way. Perhaps you should remind your friends of this? Just tell them you are doing what makes you happy and lo mind their own affairs. This is what I tell people who try to tell me I should be more submissive to my "man". It doesnt work for me or him.

~Lashra



That's my thinking. Forcing things either way doesn't work. My dominant considers me his equal - we just do things in a different way. The one that makes us the happiest! [:)]




mixielicous -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/13/2007 7:06:26 AM)

i have a feminist friend who goes to THE prominent all girls school, and since i had known her since 3rd grade i made the mistake of telling who HOW i am etc. i heard all the same things everyone else heard. things are weird now. i just dont talk about it to her anymore. but like stated by others i do on the other hand have friends who can accept me, and that makes up for it.




ownedgirlie -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/13/2007 8:20:23 AM)

I had a conversation recently with a dear friend of mine who tries to understand but simply can not.  When I told her of a girl my Master has been exploring, and that we may be paired up, she frowned and said "But that's not NORMAL!"  I asked her if she considered her own bi-sexuality abnormal, or is normalcy defined only by her view of the world?   She got my point, but I am up against this a lot, and find it is easier for me to keep such expressions of who I am within the circle of those who understand.  Just yesterday we went to lunch and she made a comment of "you're into that submissive thing."  I said "No, I am submissive to him.  It is what I am.  It is not a thing I am into." 

She is not saying these things to insult me.  She is in fact one of my dearest friends.  But without being exposed to this way of life, it is very difficult for her to comprehend.  She tries, but it is just too foreign for her.  I won't throw our friendship away because of it; but it is limited as a result.




venusdiva429 -> RE: Handling Feminist Friends (2/13/2007 3:49:03 PM)

FR-

I wrote a blog about this. I'm just going to put a piece of it, though:

The revulsion, I believe, comes from a fear that acceptance is a rejection of all of the advances that feminism has won for women. It doesn’t compute that a woman would choose to give up her hard-won power, or that a woman would take punishment and spanking as part of the day-to-day and like it. We forget that the dominant man is NOTHING without the gift of submission that the woman chooses to give him. What is a single dom man going to do by himself? Absolutely nothing. What about the sub female? Same. One needs the other, and there’s no shame in a woman making that choice. It’s not that it’s an abject rejection of feminism’s higher, liberal ideals; in fact, I would call it one of the ultimate embraces of them. What is more glorious than realizing and knowing that you hold so much power that you can be part of a team- a very, very equal team- without losing yourself?

[snip]

I think that many people are soured against Taken In Hand relationships because they get lost in the agendas of political and social conservatism. We see a woman’s submission as being a key attribute in fundie relationships the world over, and become uncomfortable with a free-thinking, feminist woman’s choice to partake in that lifestyle. When Taken In Hand is seen not as a choice, but as a supposed and necessary social truth that is being flouted by the evil feminists, it becomes tainted by inflexibility and restrictive dogma.

(If you're not familiar with Taken In Hand, go here.)

I think, also, that the choice to put yourself into the service of a dominant male is not one of regression, but one of progression. It's not history repeating itself to the detriment of yourself and others. Rather, it's adding the necessary dimension of consent and choice- two core values of the feminist movement.

I find that feminism seems to come apart at the seams when sexuality is involved, strangely enough. I would think that feminism would work to free it, not take it in the direction of Catherine McKinnon and her ilk. She attempted to get this ordinance passed with Andrea Dworkin in Indiana in 1983. It refers to pornography, but I have to wonder if she would have applied it to the BDSM activites that so many of us enjoy (the bolds are mine):

the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women, whether in pictures or in words, that also includes one or more of the following: (1) Women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy pain or humiliation; or (2) Women are presented as sexual objects who experience sexual pleasure in being raped; or (3) Women are presented as sexual objects tied up or cut up or mutilated or bruised or physically hurt, or as dismembered or truncated or fragmented or severed into body parts; or (4) Women are presented being penetrated by objects or animals; or (5) Women are presented in scenarios of degradation, injury, abasement, torture, shown as filthy or inferior, bleeding, bruised, or hurt in a context that makes these conditions sexual; or (6) Women are presented as sexual objects for domination, conquest, violation, exploitation, possession, or use, or through postures or positions of servility or submission or display. The use of men, children, or transsexuals in the place of women in paragraphs (1) through (6) above shall also constitute pornography under this section.[7]




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