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The Line - 12/31/2006 8:08:40 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I slap my slave.

If I were to slap her because she didn't make my coffee right, most people would call it abusive.  If I were to do it during sex, most people would call it kink.  Where is the line? 

We already have guidelines along the lines of 'consent.'  We both know the physical and psychological risks involved in our activities.  Our negotiations didn't include a specific detail of when and where I am 'permitted' to slap her.  She trusts my judgement to do so in situations and circumstances where it is appropriate (i.e. during sex, a scene, if I think she's losing her mind, if she's passing out while I see muggers coming towards us, etc.)  On the other hand, the more power surrendered, the greater the possibility for the abuse of that power. 

The earlier example of coffee, in our relationship, is one of the few ritual elements of our relationship.  If she doesn't perform that basic function correctly, she expects 'punishment'.  Face slapping doesn't normally figure into that type of punishment in our dynamic, though not because we would consider it abusive.  So if in our relationship, I can slap my either during sex, or when being brought coffee, when can't I do it?

When I'm angry.  When we're in public such as a city street, restaurant, or her parents house.  When the curtains are open (she has a strong fear of being seen by neighbors.)  Anytime the action falls outside of our established limits of acceptability.  That means the carte blanche I have to determine where and when to engage in kink related activities carries a burden of responsibility to only do so, when appropriate.  The motivations behind kink desires should not be confused with motivations behind desires of abuse. Here are some examples of the differences.

Encouraging my slave until she reaches 445lbs (200kilos) with the intention of further destroying her self-image would be abuse.  Encouraging my slave to reach that weight because we both think she would look stunning in a leather bikini is fine.

Tying my slave up to be used and beaten by a group of strangers every night to destroy her sense of value as a human being would be abuse.  Doing so once a week/month because we both love it is fine.  (Yes, certainly she might love it every day, but in all but the very most extreme circumstances, daily exposure to this carries psychological risks far beyond the apparent kink.  Individuals with Stockholm syndrome are not 'consenting' - but it's a moot point, since anyone who would engage in this type of extreme behavior wouldn't likely be interested in this short article on restraint.)

The difference between abuse and kink is not a fine line, it's actually two circles that half intersect each other.  Standing firmly in the kink circle doesn't mean you aren't standing in the abuse circle.  The difference isn't in the actions, but in the intent.  If we intend to satisfy our kinks or desires without regard for the well-being (at least on a minimal level) of our partner, we've wandered into that abuse circle.  In fact, many of us do it, unintentionally, all the time.  That's why 'one red flag' doesn't usually bring about the end of a relationship.  It's the pattern of abuse that can lead to dangerous and destructive relationships. 

Stephan


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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 8:16:53 AM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann


The difference between abuse and kink is not a fine line, it's actually two circles that half intersect each other.  Standing firmly in the kink circle doesn't mean you aren't standing in the abuse circle.  The difference isn't in the actions, but in the intent. 
Stephan


And in our consent.  If both parties consent then that takes it further out of the abuse realm.

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 8:21:21 AM   
mrocknj


Posts: 8
Joined: 7/28/2005
From: North Jersey
Status: offline 		If you want it and I want to give it to you, it ain't abuse......

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 8:25:47 AM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		Responsible use of consent is the key, as discussed by the OP. I like the two circles description better than a hard line, because it conveys the fact that there's a range of "borderline" things that can be abuse in the wrong context.

To paraphrase something from the publishing world slightly: Context is king.


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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 8:27:43 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087
What is a sadist?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357
Training and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676
Defining Domination v Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182
Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013
Discipline or abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096
Abuse vs discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849
Abuse disguised as dominance

http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045
Overuse of "Abuse"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262
Physical Abuse of a slave

http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029
SM vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874
BDSM versus Abuse



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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 8:48:10 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		It isn't just in your intent. That's only half of it. You might think tying her up and having her being  gang raped would be a good thing because your intent would be to free her "inner slut"/ But if it leaves her broken and terrified then it was abusive. Intent is only good as far as it goes. If she was slapped around repeatedly as a child then you could view doing it as having the intent to change her view of it, but if she didn't feel the same then your intent doesn't matter. And sometimes, no matter how good the intent on both parts, things turn out wrong.

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 9:02:57 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		The very first conversation I had with my Master was because of  comment I had in my Yahoo profile at the time.  Under "Latest News" I wrote, "Learning what side of the line to stand on."  He asked what line I was referring to, and I said the line that differentiates submission from abuse.  It can be foggy for some, for sure.

We had a thread recently on abuse, and in it I contended that one can have the best of intentions and still be abusive.  I believe it's the effect such actions and behaviors have on the other person that defines whether something is abusive or not.  Do I continually feel worse about myself after he does XYZ to me?  Does my esteem suffer?  Does my confidence shrink?  Is my spirit crushed?

Conversely, what if you intended to hurt her emotionally by slapping her, but she loved slaps - for any reason, at any time?  Would that still be abuse?  But if those slaps work to permanently demean her value somehow, then yes, it could constitute abuse.

Sometimes my Master behaves toward me in a way that gives me that old horrible, awful, crushed feeling that I was so familiar with in earlier years when I actually was abused.  I do not accuse him of abusing me, because I know and trust him better than that.  In this case, intention does come into play, but only because I know without a doubt (because of my history with him) that he does not wish to damage me emotionally.  But I do tell him later how it made me feel, so that he is aware as he requires being aware of all my feelings.  He has slapped me before for not paying close enough attention to something, or for getting something wrong.  It is his right to do that.  It doesn't make me feel "that way" when he does it.  It does not lessen me as a person in my eyes.  So it is not abusive to me. 

The line, in my humble opininon, depends on the effect something has on the one receiving the slap (or whatever it is).

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 9:03:05 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68
And in our consent.  If both parties consent then that takes it further out of the abuse realm.


I don't usually go out of my way to tell consenting adults what they may or may not do (unless they're doing it all over my couch.)

The problem is as SmokingGun points out - that informed, competent consent is not the same as consent out of misery, desperation, or bullying.  Defense attorneys will regularly defend abusive men, saying since their wife stayed, she was consenting to his actions.  It doesn't work there, and it doesn't work for me either.

I'm not in favor of ostracizing people because they like to 'play hard.'  Some of the things I do with kitchen knives and breathplay would certainly land me in the abusive category by some folks.  Nor am I suggesting we must all have a PhD in kinkology before we start delving into our 'practice.'  As LA pointed out, there's isn't even anything remotely new about what I wrote.

Honestly, it was the thread a few days ago on 'Feeding' that started the wheels spinning.

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Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 9:27:38 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have to say, for me the difference would lie in how I felt about it. Actions that I have consented to could possibly devalue me and cause a loss of my self esteem if performed incorrectly, I trust him not to do that. He knows what the difference is, I know what the difference is, in the context of our dynamic.



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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 9:36:56 AM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

It isn't just in your intent. That's only half of it. You might think tying her up and having her being  gang raped would be a good thing because your intent would be to free her "inner slut"/ But if it leaves her broken and terrified then it was abusive. Intent is only good as far as it goes. If she was slapped around repeatedly as a child then you could view doing it as having the intent to change her view of it, but if she didn't feel the same then your intent doesn't matter. And sometimes, no matter how good the intent on both parts, things turn out wrong.


Very nicely put.

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 10:44:06 AM   
MistressTheaZ


Posts: 155
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

Interesting topic...with many variations of opinion, I'm sure.

Intent and consent may speak for much, but I sum it up for Myself in this way: I may break My sub down, but only to condition and build him or her stronger. I may de-emphasize and condition out the negatives with positive reinforcement and rewards. I may punish, but I always lovingly affirm. Beyond any punishment, degradation, pain or suffering, there is always a core foundation of friendship, mutual respect and caring: from him/her to Me, and from Myself to him/her.

I define abuse as negatives without positives. Behaviors that nullify the chance for trust, intimacy and caring to exist: blocking, shaming, hostility, crazy-making, and actions stemming from anger, hatred or resentment that serve no positive purpose for Me or My sub.

Actions, not reactions.

Of course, JMO.

Respectfully,

Thea

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 12:01:46 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		Intent, consent AND outcome/responsibility for outcome. That's the line.

So if you do think you're doing something for her betterment and it backfires-

you own it and *clean up your mess.*  If you can't DO that please stick to the fur floggers.



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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 1:08:30 PM   
Zsuzsanna


Posts: 108
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline 		This is a very interesting and informative thread. I'm glad there are discussions like this so a person can see all the different outlooks and attitudes on the subject and take from each what they need and what speaks to them.
Happy New Year!

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 1:35:17 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Stephann, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eyes I see, that consent is a major factor of having authority to physically use force upon the consenting person.
 
However, it is also in my mind's eyes that although a Dominant may be given blanket authority to use physical, emotional and or mental force; that still does not cancel the responsiblity of the Dominant to draw the line on the side of caution instead of treading in the abuse.
When a slave has 'fear' that is something that sways my mind's eyes to the side of abuse.  The same for terror, fear, being placed into a no win position where there is no chance to escape the 'what if.'  It is a unrealistic expectation.
 
That said, I also have in my mind's eyes; that if a slave is still not gaining from the physical application of punishment in a training area, such as coffee making--if that style of training isn't working; try something else.  Dominants must be willing to try different methods of training.  After all, it is the results that we seek and not a violent and unproductive results.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: The Line - 12/31/2006 3:43:10 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		The "line" is the same for all of us - that which prompts you to slap for this but not that....
 
Focus.

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Profile   Post #: 15
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