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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 7:24:54 AM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		I think we're talking different age groups here. To be specific, I'm in full agreement with controlled sex education (i.e. from teachers and parents) from 13 years old onwards as I believe it will help reduce teenage pregnancy.

13? Did you know that most girls have started their periods and such by the age of 13. Children are hitting puberty much younger these days.
Sex education doesnt neccesarily stop teenage pregnancy but good sex education can. In my opinion our sex education lessons are seriously lacking when it comes to being anywhere near good. Parents in the main are just as bad at sex education too.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 7:46:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		My daughter had sex lessons at 6 and they were full and comprehensive, that was in London so some British schools do a good job.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 7:56:54 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		What?! Too much for me. I'll step out at this point.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:02:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
What?! Too much for me. I'll step out at this point.


Consistency again NG. Sex ed in schools at every age, every class level is mandated in many public school systems in the US. The reason is the government regulatory body responsible for the school curriculum determined that they know better than the parents and took the control out of their hands.

Again, I would think you would support there good intent based upon the evidence that many sexually active teenagers are ignorant to many basic facts regarding their bodies. Just another example of the government knowing better and trying to avoid future responsibilities of dealing with unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases; which cost all citizens. Very surprised you have a problem with this.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:11:39 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

My daughter had sex lessons at 6 and they were full and comprehensive, that was in London so some British schools do a good job.


Well there are always exceptions to most rules. Im glad your daughter was taught well but in my experience most children are not.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:12:52 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
What?! Too much for me. I'll step out at this point.


Consistency again NG. Sex ed in schools at every age, every class level is mandated in many public school systems in the US. The reason is the government regulatory body responsible for the school curriculum determined that they know better than the parents and took the control out of their hands.

Again, I would think you would support there good intent based upon the evidence that many sexually active teenagers are ignorant to many basic facts regarding their bodies. Just another example of the government knowing better and trying to avoid future responsibilities of dealing with unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases; which cost all citizens. Very surprised you have a problem with this.


Merc, as said, I've had my fill of this. I've enjoyed the chat, it's been interesting, time to bail out.

A point to leave you with. Read your last post. Then read my last few posts. You'll see your words in bold simply parrot what I've just said in my last few posts.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:24:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The theory is that children at such an age take it in their stride. You talk to children like you would talk to an adult and they respond in a mature manner. It doesn't mean they miss out on childhood. I've always had great fun with my daughter but I when I talk to her I give a straight answer to a straight question and I don't duck any issues and if its an opinion I'm giving her I tell her its an opinion. She'a always mixed with adult company from a very early age being a ownly child (technically not now) and we never modified what we talked about in her presence. It's worked out well but it means I have a 15 year old daughter who is wiley and wise beyond her age and with a wit that cuts. I think it all comes down to intent, sensitivity and a child's feeling of security but children are resilient and a sponge for knowledge in a safe environment.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/7/2007 8:26:42 AM >

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:28:08 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Merc, as said, I've had my fill of this. I've enjoyed the chat, it's been interesting, time to bail out.

A point to leave you with. Read your last post. Then read my last few posts. You'll see your words in bold simply parrot what I've just said in my last few posts.
Granted - just wondering if government intent is still the text or must it also match your personal philosophy for you to support it?

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:34:36 AM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		My question Merc, should people be allowed to defacate in the streets? Should they be allowed to have sex in a public park in broad daylight? Should they be allowed to be drunk in public even if they are not driving?

Societies have rules for behavior, some of them become laws, the line is where ever the society that governs the people says it is, it is the collective will of the people.

You know people put down modesty garments as proof that woman in the ME lack freedom. I am by law prohibited from walking down the street nude... the diffences are in kind, not like

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 8:44:56 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The theory is that children at such an age take it in their stride. You talk to children like you would talk to an adult and they respond in a mature manner. It doesn't mean they miss out on childhood. I've always had great fun with my daughter but I when I talk to her I give a straight answer to a straight question and I don't duck any issues and if its an opinion I'm giving her I tell her its an opinion. She'a always mixed with adult company from a very early age being a ownly child (technically not now) and we never modified what we talked about in her presence. It's worked out well but it means I have a 15 year old daughter who is wiley and wise beyond her age and with a wit that cuts. I think it all comes down to intent, sensitivity and a child's feeling of security but children are resilient and a sponge for knowledge in a safe environment.


I think you misunderstand my posts. I agree with you and my daughter is exactly the same only a year younger. My pointis that Britians attempts at sex education are in general, not always archaic and very clumsy at best.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 9:05:42 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sex education in schools - for the most part here, its a joke. They teach the biology, but say nothing about relationships, and what they do deal with regarding relationships is strictly limited to heterosexual, vanilla relationships, where men are men and women are women, with no suggestion even that any other situation exists or can exist.

What this means, is that kids grow up with a view that is totally insufficient - even the kids who are strictly interested in heterosexual vanilla relationships, to say nothing of the gay, lesbian and bisexual kids, the kids who like the idea of crossdressing, the kids who find the idea of whips and chains a huge turn on.

The intention on the part of government, which prescribes what is and is not sexual education, seems to me strongly affected (infected?) by a certain system of thought which says that sexual activity can be on a right and wrong, even good and evil basis. And the result is, that it perpetuates a society in which it is wrong, even evil, to stray from what is right and good, and the kids who have "wrong thoughts" are spewed into a dysfunctional adulthood that denies them their identity and forces them into unhealthy relationships - which of course reinforces their "wrongness" and the evil of their thoughts.

Yet again I will say, when and only when we remove this infection from our culture, will this problem and so many other problems in our societies, be alleviated. And what is interesting is, that this is another instance where all authority derives from the top, rather than from the people - not because of a "nanny state" that has suddenly taken root in the UK, but because this idea that all wisdom and authority derives from the top is one which is utterly enshrined in our entire culture, because of the thought system which is integral to it.

It is unlikely that we will be able to remove the Church from our society now, given that it has had nigh on one and half millennia to insinuate itself. Even though 95% of British people do not attend church, even though Christianity in all its forms is a minority affair - the census which shows a high proportion of Church of England adherents is a false one, I assure you; people choose CofE on their census form because they feel they must.

And yet, at grass roots level, and at the risk of being ridiculed and exposed as evil in the Sunday papers, many people rebel all the time against this systematic social and sexual control. Authority can be brought to bear on any facet of our lives from those "close to God", yet whether anyone takes any notice is another affair entirely. Its not rebellion for the sake of rebellion mind you; rather we are now all sufficiently educated to sort what is useful and what is not, from the "wisdom" that comes from on high. We are not sheep to be controlled, unless we see a worthwhile cause.

As for sex education, my kids are getting what they need in terms of awareness and acceptance, to hopefully grow up comfortable with whatever sexual identity they turn out to have. But not from school - which might well bring me into conflict with authority at some point, but thats a risk I have to take, because my kids will not go through life as I once did and they will not go through life abusing gays and lesbians and so on as part of the majority who have been taught what is right and wrong by people who have no idea.

E

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 9:19:28 AM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		Sex education in schools - for the most part here, its a joke. They teach the biology, but say nothing about relationships, and what they do deal with regarding relationships is strictly limited to heterosexual, vanilla relationships, where men are men and women are women, with no suggestion even that any other situation exists or can exist.

I agree totally. From what i see though apart from a few exceptions parents aren't doing a much better job of educating their kids sexually either. There are many reasons for this including the even worse sex education which we recieved as kids.  My parents generation were taught that sex was pretty much taboo, which didnt help them educate me. In turn i could easily have struggled to teach my daughter - its a vicious circle of taboo.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 9:33:16 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question Merc, should people be allowed to defacate in the streets? Should they be allowed to have sex in a public park in broad daylight? Should they be allowed to be drunk in public even if they are not driving?

Societies have rules for behavior, some of them become laws, the line is where ever the society that governs the people says it is, it is the collective will of the people.

You know people put down modesty garments as proof that woman in the ME lack freedom. I am by law prohibited from walking down the street nude... the diffences are in kind, not like


julia,
Let me put it as simply and basic as possible. I am very happy to not have to rationalize if government intervention it good or bad based upon my personal beliefs or interject ridiculous tangent arguments such as public deification.

The OP and ALL subsequent posts I've made point to a relinquishing of personal responsibility and accountability which would include public deification. Not difficult for me to distinguish from the hypocrisy of singling out one milk product as a cause for childhood obesity and regulating it's commercials to a age group that has very little disposable income or opportunity to freely spend it. If it doesn't seem silly to you I won't try to change your mind.

I do think that its very hypocritical for a man to go topless and not a woman, and find it ironic that it is many of the feminist freedom fighters who lobby against it or don't take it as a serious issue of personal freedom. But then, the ACLU also picks its battles based upon politics and not logic. If I respect consistency I must respect them for it as well.

If you have intent as the only criteria for government intervention there is no argument that can be made against the elimination of all liberties and freedoms being eliminated or compromised. That's the only point to this thread. A drunk driver killing someone on his way home only 'intended' to go home and not kill. Consistent logic would be to not punish him because he had the best intention in mind. Any other action against him is supporting personal accountability. You are against personal accountability or at minimum believe the government determines accountability. I don't.

Regarding public deification as an issue; as the nuns used to say when asked; "Can I go to the bathroom?" "Sure you CAN but you MAY not." So you can - but you'll have personal accountability for the action.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 9:35:51 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Well if sex education in schools is intended to stop Teenage pregnancy and limit the spread of STD's then by any standard it has FAILED.

The problem is that Liberals wont recondsider their stance on the matter, they will encourage more of what is known by many to not work.
Oh woe is me !

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 9:57:06 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I would contend Seeks, that it is exactly the deficiencies I identified, which lead to under age pregnancies; telling kids how without telling them why is a recipe for disaster. Same goes for what passes as drug awareness in my opinion.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 10:05:21 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		You created several straw men, I am not for lack of accountability, I am not against ads for dairy products, and I am not for the government taking liberty.

I stated in my case the person was drunk in public, not driving. People are not allowed to be intoxicated in public legally.

My point is that each society decides what freedoms they want to abdicate to the "powers that be" and which they do not. Your ideas of what should be allowed and what should not be allowed will differ from your neighbor. I had one gal insist it was her right to burn anything she liked on her property and pollute the air as much as she wanted, even though air is something common to us all. People will differ on what they should be allowed to do, so we have to come to a consensus about "rights".

If the Brits as a society determine that they do not like cheese ads, well they can outlaw them, just like we can outlaw tobacco ads and ads for hard alcohol on TV.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 10:05:53 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well if sex education in schools is intended to stop Teenage pregnancy and limit the spread of STD's then by any standard it has FAILED.
I agree - who are you fighting here?

The problem is that Liberals wont recondsider their stance on the matter, they will encourage more of what is known by many to not work.
Oh woe is me !
Ok colour me stupid but what have the liberals to do with it?


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 10:19:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL seeksfemslave
If you watch some of the sex education programmes broadcast for schools the content is very close to porn. All about odd sexual practices and same sex requirements etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL replyby_missturbation
I'm actually quite surprised to find you are from the U.k. I worked in schools for quite a while and sat through several sex education lessons which are now taught at age 11. In general the topic is covered in a science lesson and is very scientifically orientated. I cannot see how you can link a school sex education lesson to anywhere near resembling porn. Homosexuality is skimmed over as though it is some dirty word and odd sexual practices are not mentioned. The lessons are still taught as more of a 'how humans reproduce' kind of thing and dont really go into that much the emotions and pleasures of sex. Of course every teacher teaches differently and some concentrate on the emotional side of sex more than others.

One defination of porn. is that which is sexually stimulating without regard to the  emotional content of relationships.
I happened to watch a schools Sex Ed. programme where the question was asked about different methods of stimulation, the dildo came up, so to speak, and was discussed.
Since the dildo is designed purely for sexual pleasure, was that not pornographic.

With regard to same sex relationships did not the authorities issue a booklet showing 2 men and their adopted child. It was I think hastily withdrawn when its content become common public knowledge.

Tho' I find the thought of male homosexuality distasteful, my objection is to the <behind the scenes> lobby that at the moment seems to be able to push their own pro homosexual agenda and get it on to the statute books.
An example is the recent change to the laws regarding inheritance, which favour homosexuals but not cohabiting siblings.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/7/2007 10:21:26 AM >

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RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 10:30:06 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL seeksfemslave
If you watch some of the sex education programmes broadcast for schools the content is very close to porn. All about odd sexual practices and same sex requirements etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL replyby_missturbation
I'm actually quite surprised to find you are from the U.k. I worked in schools for quite a while and sat through several sex education lessons which are now taught at age 11. In general the topic is covered in a science lesson and is very scientifically orientated. I cannot see how you can link a school sex education lesson to anywhere near resembling porn. Homosexuality is skimmed over as though it is some dirty word and odd sexual practices are not mentioned. The lessons are still taught as more of a 'how humans reproduce' kind of thing and dont really go into that much the emotions and pleasures of sex. Of course every teacher teaches differently and some concentrate on the emotional side of sex more than others.

One defination of porn. is that which is sexually stimulating without regard to the  emotional content of relationships.
I happened to watch a schools Sex Ed. programme where the question was asked about different methods of stimulation, the dildo came up, so to speak, and was discussed.
Since the dildo is designed purely for sexual pleasure, was that not pornographic.
In my opinion no. Pornography is designed to sexually stimulate - sex education lessons are not. They are intended to educate.

With regard to same sex relationships did not the authorities issue a booklet showing 2 men and their adopted child. It was I think hastily withdrawn when its content become common public knowledge.
well in my opinion it should not have been withdrawn. Not sure whether you yourself are arguing against the booklet or its removal?

Tho' I find the thought of male homosexuality distasteful, my objection is to the <behind the scenes> lobby that at the moment seems to be able to push their own pro homosexual agenda and get it on to the statute books.
An example is the recent change to the laws regarding inheritance, which favour homosexuals but not cohabiting siblings.
Hang on a minute - surely homosexuals are entitled to the same entitlements as any other couple? Also if you are going to argue for cohabiting siblings, surely even before homosexuals had a change in the law it was unfair. A man and woman living together would have favouring inheritance rights over cohabiting siblings. If you are going to pick a cause and fight for it you cannot discriminate who has more rights just because you dislike homosexuals.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Question for the Brits, and those that wish they were. - 1/7/2007 10:40:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well if sex education in schools is intended to stop Teenage pregnancy and limit the spread of STD's then by any standard it has FAILED.
I agree - who are you fighting here?

The problem is that Liberals wont recondsider their stance on the matter, they will encourage more of what is known by many to not work.
Oh woe is me !
Ok colour me stupid but what have the liberals to do with it?



I think the general tenor of my posts reveals at the very least that I am a hard line Right Winger. The problem I have is that I was alive and kicking when the permissive Liberal statutes were introduced,the 60s, I was alive and kicking when the consquences began to be implemented, the 70s and I am least still alive when it is apparent to all but Liberals that those 60's statutes were wrong and have had deleterious outcomes on social stability.
Legions of immature teenage single mothers, Violent crime spiralling out of control. Prisons full to bursting. Rampant  spread of STD's Billions spent on "education" and many many thousands leave school barely if at all able to read and write. General family breakdown resulting in high levels of psychological problems and disturbance. British taxpayer seemingly held to be responsible for all third world problems and hence a totally absurd immigration policy. The rise of political activism based on religious affiliation, here I refer to Islamic immigrants. Can a Christian backlash be far away ? NO.

One thing that does puzzle me is why Hindus appear to be so "low profile".

That is what Liberals have got to "do with it"

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/7/2007 10:58:58 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
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