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RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/5/2007 10:41:21 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Prop I'm afraid your master must make a choice then.  You can either obey his orders to never think about yourself, or you can obey his orders to learn how to enjoy when he gives you pleasure.

You can't do both.

In order to learn to process things differently, in order to learn that you deserve the pleasure, you MUST think about yourself, you MUST care about how this feels to you.  You're right, it is easier to be a bot in this case, there'd be nothing you'd need to learn or change if you could just deal with it.

But he's given you an order that conflicts with another order.  He has to choose.  I am NOT saying you need to learn to 'expect pleasure' or even 'desire pleasure.'  I am saying that in order for you to follow his orders for you to grow and accept pleasure without guilt, it will require you to care for yourself, think about yourself, and accept that you deserve the pleasure. 

And if HE doesn't allow that to happen, then it's actually only going to increase your guilt and conflict. 


LA...but is it truly impossible to accept and experience pleasure while still remaining selfless? if that is the case then i feel i am doomed.
you say i must learn to accept that i deserve pleasure, learn to care for self, but these are not things that are allowed. yes it may seem as if there's a conflict, but you have to know 2 things: 1) he has not "ordered" or demanded that i experience pleasure without guilt...it's something he would like, but it's not something he wants to force or control; 2)he still has no desire to control pleasure..so he would never do anything with the sole intent to bring me some sort of pleasure. 
so, it's not that he wishes to "give" me pleasure, and then have me be grateful for it and guiltless. rather, he would like it if, while in the natural process of serving, i would every once in a while, entirely by chance, experience some direct pleasure of my own, accept that, be grateful, be guiltless, and never skip a beat in focus or service. add to that my personal knowledge of things he finds distasteful in a woman: selfishness, having expectations or any sense of entitlement, being overly expressive as far as their own pleasure (rather than feed his ego, this is just annoying to him), and finding enjoyment in everything or even in most things that he subjects them to. then take me, with as another poster mentioned, my history of childhood abuse and a whole heapa issues stemming from that, causing my view on sex in general to be rather skewed; and being so submissive that anything that even resembles someone serving me or doing "for" me feels awkward and unnatural....it all comes together to create an environment that makes something like guiltless pleasure difficult (but hopefully not impossible) to obtain.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/5/2007 11:08:22 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:



1) he has not "ordered" or demanded that i experience pleasure without guilt...it's something he would like, but it's not something he wants to force or control; 2)he still has no desire to control pleasure..so he would never do anything with the sole intent to bring me some sort of pleasure. 


It seems to me that if he owns and controls every aspect of you, that these are just two more things that are under his control. If he owns you body mind and soul, then he owns your pleasure or lack thereof, too. Now a person can own a car and let it run out of oil, ruin the engine... well they do not have a car anymore, not one that runs at any rate. Now, there is a certain master that owns a certain slave. The slave is conflicted by emotions that she cannot control, but the master refuses to control them for her. He is running her out of oil and runs the risk of ruining her engine because he does not feel like taking responsibility for her guilt over having pleasure. He has taken control over many other aspects of the slave's psyche, but has no desire to control that part, so he abdicates that control to the universe.

The owner of the car can say "I do not feel like taking responsibility for the oil in my car so I am not going to change it or replace it when it is low". His right, he owns it, but most people would think that a rather foolish approach to car ownership. He does not feel like taking control over your pleasure one way or another. It is up to you whether or not you will be like an inanimate object and let your engine get ruined... or take control and responsibility for your own pleasure. After reading your posts that is the conflict I see, becoming responsible for something he does not want to control, that might be a very scary thing for someone that wraps their identity up into being completely and wholly in the power of another person.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/5/2007 11:11:09 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:


...but is it truly impossible to accept and experience pleasure while still remaining selfless? if that is the case then i feel i am doomed.


aaaaaahhhhh the trap of the selfless!

To be selfless is very much a trap and an altrusic goal that can never be achieved.  It is like walking across the room but only moving have the distance from where you are to the other side with each step.

To be selfless is to not have any consideration for what one wants or needs... to give all without regard to what one wants on needs.  Therefore, as one moves across the room and gets so close to that altusic goal they stumble when they experience self-pleasures.  The selfless person is not suppose to have pleasure.. nothing is for them.  They are to be selfless.... but human nature dictates you either are unhappy or happy.  Even to be happy would be selfish, since pleasure is associated with being happy.  But, doesn't being selfless mean one needs to be unhappy.  No.. the opposite of happy is Dead.  The selfless stop having feelings and thoughts of anything... they are in a void in space... and the only thing that keeps them alive is the brains automatic functions. 

I believe individuals confuse being selfless within a relationship... with being selfless within oneself.  The do are very different concepts and when you role the two into one.. you doom yourself.

Many Dominants like to enflate their ego's by claiming and pushing their slaves or submissives to being selfless persons.  In many ways these same Dominants are pushing their slaves/submissives on a path of failure. 

My dear friend ( a priest of importance in the RC church) was fortunate to meet Mother Teresa and shared some private thoughts with me.  This woman was what some would say the most selfless person that is known in modern times.  In fact.. thou she was extremely selfless with others in what she gave to them... she was highly selfish in being who she is.  Her happiness was to be that who she was... to not give to others that she deemed as needy.  She forsake her material items for the selfish happiness within her own spirit.  She did it for love of her god.  She was selfless in a certain specific area... but she enjoy life and was selfishly happy with it.  When she was becoming very ills she was ask/told to leave the area for the betterment of her health.  She refused.... for she knew that her happiness was routed in the life she craved out for herself in the gutters.  It was in fact a selfish act to live a life of giving selflessly to others.

Do not twist being Selfless.. with being without pleasure or wants or desires.  You going very much against the grain of human nature. 

Many submissives by their naturally tendencies will want to give be very selfless in their relationships.  Being selfless within a relationship is one thing.. but being selfless with one's feelings and thoughts is to be dead.

Some push the thought that in being selfless that the submissive/slave will and does give all that there is to give.  News flash.  There is no connection in having pleasure and not being able to give all to another.  They can coexist!  When we have sex... would your pleasure be less or would you recieve less if your partner also had pleasure.  Pleasures of two or more can co-exist and we can give our all to the other.  It is not a Take/Give all and scarifice pleasure in the process.

I focus my girls very much on Acceptance for what is!  I refuse to lead them down the trap that Selflessness will bring them.  Their Well-being is important to me and leading them down this path is setting them and anyone to fail.

A person can enjoy and be pleasure by what they do... they also might not enjoy or be pleasure by what they do.  A Master in the relationship will be able to make a different choice if possible.  A slave waits for the Master to decide and Accepts what is.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/5/2007 11:11:22 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The essential process that needs to be broken down is "To receive takes away from their experience and away from who I am."  Because you aren't caring about YOUR experience, right?  You just feel that it's somehow taking away from THEIR experience of whatever is going on at the time and somehow if YOU receive anything from that, it must be taking away from THEM?

Are you afraid that if you begin to accept pleasure that it will open the door to all of those traits that he doesn't like? 

Honestly, I'd think it wouldn't be that hard for you if your master took the time to train you to it, made it a priority for you to learn to hold to yourself and understand that your pleasure doesn't take away from your submission.  Your depth of submission and issues may have made a lot of problems for you, but it's obviously made some things a lot easier as well.

IMO it is impossible to be truly selfless without recognizing and appreciating the self.  Selflessness cannot exist without the self.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/5/2007 4:38:45 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		In literature, loss of self seems to be a spiritual rather than a physical quest.  Recently I have begun struggling through the writings of Bernadette Roberts who is described as a ‘post Christian mystic’.  Her quest and passage to the loss of self would appear to have been quite a selfish undertaking because she spent years as a contemplative nun.  She did not have to serve or take care of another person; she removed herself from real life in order to reach this state of no-self. 
I am not a philosopher and it is difficult reading for me because I don’t ‘get’ what she is describing…… and I am a born skeptic. 
I can’t add much to what others have said so eloquently to you about selflessness, but I thought you might be interested in the books I have mentioned here.   

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/7/2007 9:03:03 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hi All,
I thought about a Friends episode where Febee thought her good deeds could be selfless.
The whole show was showing her no matter what service you perform or what gift you give you get some pleasure or sense of accomplishment out of it.
There indeed is no completely selfless act you can do that does not make you feel good in some way.

Even when I did things that were overlooked or unappreciated the feeling I had when I accomplished the task was one of joyous free giving or the pride in a job well done.
I think all services someone performs for another are good for the person doing them as well.
I think you do indeed get pleasure from serving your Master well don't you daddysprop?
suzanne

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/7/2007 10:29:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

There indeed is no completely selfless act you can do that does not make you feel good in some way.


I would say that is possibly untrue in one way. You could instinctively give your life for another and not have time to ponder how it would make you feel. If you did this it could indeed be a selfless act.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/7/2007 2:11:41 PM   
ayasha


Posts: 149
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline 		If your Master wishes for you to let go and enjoy the time together, the orgasms, to receive great pleasure from the acts that the two of you are sharing, you should feel guilty if you can not let yourself go and do this.  That, my dear, is the act of disobedience. 

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/7/2007 5:06:55 PM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

There indeed is no completely selfless act you can do that does not make you feel good in some way.


I would say that is possibly untrue in one way. You could instinctively give your life for another and not have time to ponder how it would make you feel. If you did this it could indeed be a selfless act.

I went under the knife and donated a kidney in 2002.
Even though I knew there was a slight chance I could die, I still in my choice to do so recieved joy from making that choice.
Even if I died it would not have taken away the fact I felt good about taking that chance to give of myself physically to help another.
suzanne

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/7/2007 5:41:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		The philosophical notions on the reality of altruism have already been discussed far more than I'd want to get to on this board, however, I agree with Julia.  However rare it may occur, I do think it's possible for someone to perform a selfless act to help another without any intent, knowledge, or recognition of pleasure for themselves. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 50
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