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Mercnbeth -> Image (2/24/2005 12:21:12 PM)

I don't think anyone could argue that as recently as 20 years ago the Gay community was closeted. The public perception was fueled by caricature portrayals in the media, and the community could do little to stop it. Now there are nationally prominent gay activist groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union's Lesbian & Gay Rights Project, the Human Rights Campaign, Lambda Legal, and six registered PACs.

I was doing some business research regarding PACs (Political Action Committees) and not surprisingly there wasn't one specific to hetero - BDSM practitioners. There were at least a 100 that I would consider anti-BDSM. Amazing that the animal rights groups have 13 PACs specific to their cause. (Wonder if we can get them to represent the 'puppy play' practitioners?)

Don't you think it's time we had something for us? As I said in personal correspondence today I think it's a pity the image most portrayed to the public comes from Jerry Springer. I'm frustrated that in the media, in movies, or TV shows, that BDSM is associated with psychopaths, schizophrenics, or as in the movie "The Secretary", is a function of people with deep psychological or pathological 'conditions'. Aren't you tired of the Jerry Springer Show and it's clones, being considered representative of how your live, or want to live?

I believe this is a serious issue and I'm curious if I'm alone. There may be some amazed to know that what you did last night in the privacy of your home is considered illegal in MANY locations. I wish I had the knowledge and/or expertise to start a grass roots campaign which would evolve into a PAC for us. I think it's time. I know it's needed. What do you think?




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 12:49:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
There may be some amazed to know that what you did last night in the privacy of your home is considered illegal in MANY locations. I wish I had the knowledge and/or expertise to start a grass roots campaign which would evolve into a PAC for us. I think it's time. I know it's needed. What do you think?

I like your idea, but the conservative in me wants to argue that if you did it "in the privacy of your own home", it's not a problem that needs a PAC.
I accept and agree that anything adults choose to do with selves is kool, but I'm not a big "In your face" type of person, and am not sure how I'd feel about asking everyone to accept my right to pee on/in my partner (just kidding, wink)...
I'm not sure we can graciously present our case, without all the kinks coming out/being discussed and making us indeed look like crazy fools wanting to shove our views down bible toters' throats...
I like your idea as I've said, I'm just not comfortable of the visions of execution of said idea yet... M




Mercnbeth -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:13:51 PM)

quote:

argue that if you did it "in the privacy of your own home", it's not a problem that needs a PAC.


BlkTall,

Conservative? I'd suggest if 'tested' you'd lean more Libertarian, as do I. But addressing your point, consider, that the sodomy laws addressed gay activities conducted in the privacy of a bedroom. Are you saying that the PACs and gay activist groups didn't need to address this?

I don't consider any activity "crazy". I see a problem - people do. They thought the idea of gay sex crazy. It was a AMA recognized disease until very recently. Sadomasochism is STILL considered as a psychiatric disorder. I don't feel "disordered" and don't want to be labeled as such.

I'd welcome the debate and be more then willing to take on the bible toters. It's not my purpose to address any specific activity that any of us partake. It's recognition that this activity is NOT a mental affliction. The people who don't know us already consider us "crazy fools" and up to now, they've not seen anything to have them consider changing their position.

Think about this for a moment. If your stereotypical bible toter had a son/daughter come home and disclose they were either gay or slave, after they came to, which is more likely to be referred to medical/psychological therapy? Or the same question considering your typical, middle aged, middle class, 'red state' parents? Or for us practitioners, would it be easier to come out gay to your parents or as a Master/slave?




tabbycat -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:26:00 PM)

I've worked in politics for a few years now- I was even a lowly intern.... please no Monica jokes [;)] I think you have a great idea, I won't lie and say its easy. Politics is never easy, and ground breaking politics is even harder! But yes there are a ton of PACs for just about everything. Oh and to answer the gay or sub thing- I talking to a Dom the other day and we joked that I would be able to tell my mom and dad I was gay (even though i'm not) before telling them I'm a sub. Public outlook on being gay isn't as horrible as it once was.... but it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get even that far.




RiotGirl -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:49:59 PM)

Access Denied




MrThorns -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:54:23 PM)

I completely agree with the idea of a PAC being developed for practicioners of BDSM. Problem is that so many people are afraid to admit their involvement openly. Parents are afraid the CPS will come in and take their children away, Teachers are afraid that they will lose their jobs because they are "exposing children" to harmful behaviors, professionals are afraid because they feel they may lose their job as their private activities have embarrassed the organization. Isn't this all just another form of descrimination?

I tell ya, Merc...if you were to try and establish a PAC for BDSM, just show me where to sign up. I'm tired of seeing people living in fear.

~Thorns




Alexander -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:57:21 PM)

Considering that with every new pro gay group that’s created certain politicians just find more excuses to use the same rhetoric the nazis used against Jews on gays I am not sure I think its a good idea. When there’s a group of intolerants so empowered they are able to convince some people that gays want to take over the world, I'd rather opt for a BDSM based gun club.

Recently a group tried to pass an initiative which created a "hetero sexual license plate tags" Their reasoning was, and I sht you not, "gays have the power to seduce the pants off our state troopers just by looking at them, we need to protect our state troopers".

We'd simply become another part of the anti tolerance agenda. "Dittos rush! I think them people with their floggers want to ruin my third marriage!"

Alex.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:58:33 PM)

quote:

Great idea. How would you go about starting Merc? Start with a web page and creating a "league"?


Actually hoping to get the 'back room' in place before the web site, etc. Meaning, I want to get the frame together before building the house. What I need is knowledge/experience versus $$$. Already solicited a few legal types, but haven't found any with political or PAC experience. I've set up "not-for-profit" organizations before, but from what I've learned so far, this type is a little different.




TravisTJustice -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 1:59:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Don't you think it's time we had something for us? As I said in personal correspondence today I think it's a pity the image most portrayed to the public comes from Jerry Springer. I'm frustrated that in the media, in movies, or TV shows, that BDSM is associated with psychopaths, schizophrenics, or as in the movie "The Secretary", is a function of people with deep psychological or pathological 'conditions'. Aren't you tired of the Jerry Springer Show and it's clones, being considered representative of how your live, or want to live?

I believe this is a serious issue and I'm curious if I'm alone. There may be some amazed to know that what you did last night in the privacy of your home is considered illegal in MANY locations. I wish I had the knowledge and/or expertise to start a grass roots campaign which would evolve into a PAC for us. I think it's time. I know it's needed. What do you think?


Unfortunately, I think you'll find that apathy among kinksters is your biggest enemy. A few of us (here in Australia) went down this road a few years ago and established a national group called Consensual Lifestyles. Its concept was widely supported but when it came to actually organizing anything (dealing with bureaucracy and getting the necessary paper work in order, for example) people ran a mile and left it to the core group to do everything. Also, we found that support from established alternative lifestyles groups such as Gay Pride wasn't forthcoming (we were a pansexual group and they had "issues" with that). The Eros Foundation of Australia (which represents the adult film industry) offered moral support privately, but publicly they distanced themselves from BDSM. There was one particular knuckleheaded "morals campaigner" in government at the time who wanted the entire adult/X-rated video industry shut down. As a compromise, Eros decided to agree to a ban on BDSM videos. So, when a group as large and with the financial muscle of the Eros Foundation can't take on the Gov't head on over BDSM, small grass roots groups face a very steep, uphill battle to gain a voice of any kind. Our group eventually folded after three years (and a number of very successful national lifestyle events) because there weren't enough people willing to volunteer to even form a meeting quorum which meant, legally, we couldn't continue operating.

Some observations in hindsight that you might like to keep in mind:

Our biggest mistake was probably in the assumption the Australian scene "needed" a single representative group. Each capital city already had (and continues to have) its munch groups and social/BDSM discussion groups which are autonomous and do their own thing within the scenes in which they exist. There's also clubs in most places that each conform to and deal with the local laws applicable to them -- laws which vary from state to state. Part of our charter was also to try and establish a national database of kink-friendly professionals. A grand idea, but one that proved to be fraught with problems that made it something of a legal minefield. Kink-friendly doctors, councilors and so on exist, but word-of-mouth is sufficient to make them known to people who might need them.

In a sense, "the scene" isn't one big happy group of like minded people wanting to have an annual public event (like Sydney's Gay Madri Gras, for example) but more a loose collection of smaller groups, most of whom would prefer to remain discreet.

If I was going to do anything like this again, I'd likely consider setting it up similar to the way biker groups exist. A club will limit its membership to 20 or 25 people. When it exceeds this number, a new chapter is formed -- modeled on the first and still connected, but operating as an entirely seperate entity. From time to time, all the membership will get together for outings and even join together with groups from other clubs for similar purposes. By keeping the groups small like this, they're much easier to manage and if membership falls in one branch, it's easy to just kill it off without killing the whole club. I also tend to believe that kinksters probably have more in common with bikers as a group in that many would rather just do their own thing without feeling compelled to be "accepted" by mainstream society.

Whatever the case, I wish you luck, Merc. Feel free to msg me if you want a sounding board for your ideas.

Travis T.




RiotGirl -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:00:27 PM)

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MistressFire70 -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:01:57 PM)

While I don't think they are a PAC, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom DOES fight for BDSM rights. They are a great resource for legal advice both personal and for organizations. The coalition is funded by it's membership dues (a mere $25 a year) and volunteers. Check them out.

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/

Fire




MadameBette -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:03:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There may be some amazed to know that what you did last night in the privacy of your home is considered illegal in MANY locations.


This is the crux of the matter. People are afraid of repercussions from their family, friends, at their church, jobs, from the ‘authorities’ etc. . – we know all this. It’s the ‘deal breaker’ in child custody situations.

quote:

I wish I had the knowledge and/or expertise to start a grass roots campaign which would evolve into a PAC for us. I think it's time. I know it's needed.

So do I. The closest we have is the Coalition for Sexual Freedom. ( ncsfreedom.org )
While they offer support for Lifestyle people, they’re focus is broader based, covering all ‘alternative lifestyles‘, and tapping support from the gay community, (those guys have clout now). At NCSF, they are probably the only ones working on behalf of TG’s. (Did you know, for example, that TG’s are often denied healthcare benefits…)
I have invited someone from NCSF to speak at our BDSM group meetings. The legal realities were discussed, as well as how to handle yourself if approached by the police.

But I’d like to see more. If that means being more ‘out’ than I already am, getting out of my comfort zone, and off my duff, so be it.
I’m ready, too.
I tried volunteering at NCSF, but they seem to have a problem with their volunteer form. Anyway, I never heard back from them.

You can email me privately if you’d like to try and go forward with this.
[email protected]

~ Bette





Mercnbeth -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:11:17 PM)

quote:

I tell ya, Merc...if you were to try and establish a PAC for BDSM, just show me where to sign up. I'm tired of seeing people living in fear.


I'll be counting on you, and you're close enough to CA to be here for the meetings!




Trachmyr -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:13:51 PM)

While I might be fairly new to the specific problems that face those in the BDSM Lifestyle... I am not new to the problems of necessary secrecy or negative Images.

As one who would identify as an extreme Liberal (in the True sense of the word), I certainly believe that the world should just "live and let live"... but that's not Human Nature.

There is a certain process that taboo topics go through on their way to becoming tolerated... and hopefully at some point accepted. This can be seen in the plight of gays and lesbians to achieve the level of tolerance it currently has. Jerry Springer and other such formats are a necessary evil along that path, let me try to explain.

At first a Taboo is 'closeted', it's not spoken of or tolerated in society. Many of those who practice just a Taboo are ostracized if they are discovered, many more still have serious self-worth issues with themselves... primarily due to being cut-off from like minded individuals.

At some point the Taboo is exposed, sometimes by accident, sometimes intentionally. Unfortunately this exposure is often negative, sometimes even criminal. Those who stand up and try to enlighten society face serious criticism and can be persecuted for it. But even if they are witty, upstanding, and withstand the critics intact, they are not taken very seriously... They are directly opposing strongly held views by the society of large, they are threatening the cloistered world that mundanes live in... so their message is often ignored. Yet seeds are planted.

This is where things can get complicated. Now that the Taboo has been exposed and the topic breached, it will become part of society... but in a way that society will accept it. Thus you have all the negative connotations, the slander, the misrepresentation, and the humor taken at our expense. But trust me, this is a step in the right direction.

As the Taboo becomes more of a topic of humor... despite how that might adversely affect us, it means that society is becoming desensitized to the shock of our subculture. The more that BDSM is associated with psychos, the easier it is to bring our friends and family to the realization that what we do is not what they believe it to be. It will be our "vanilla" friends and family who have accepted us, that will eventually bring a truer understanding of who we are to society at large.

Without Jerry Springer or like formats, we would still be in the "dark ages", where revelations of our interests would have immediate and cataclysmic repercussions in our life. Instead we have a place to start the conversation... we might have to battle through misrepresentations, but at least most people will listen... and have questions to state their own curiosity.

As far as PAC's go, there are many out there which relate to certain aspects of our lifestyle (poly for example)... Until the BDSM image improves it would be better if we support them anonymously. To have one specifically for us would require that we have common and direct legal problem to overcome, unique to ourselves. Currently, I don't know of any such obstacle.

As for laws that make what we do illegal... well I'm all for a complete rewrite of laws relating to sexual matters to be done on a federal level... one which would be primarily designed to throw out 99.99% of asinine and archaic state laws. However don't think that those laws affect only the BDSM community, in my lovely state of Florida it is still illegal to have sex in any position other than missionary... I'm pretty sure most vanilla relationships are in violation of that law, not just us.

Thus, I would be more interested in seeing a PAC to "get States out of our business when it comes to sex", than to try to push for any "BDSM Rights"... It would effectually do the same thing, and have much more support.

~ Morgan




RiotGirl -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:27:19 PM)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:37:07 PM)

quote:

I tried volunteering at NCSF, but they seem to have a problem with their volunteer form. Anyway, I never heard back from them.


Madame,

I too am a member and attempted to volunteer. I even have their flag pin! But other then collect money, I don't see any activity. Actually before posting this thread I tried to remember their name. I know exactly were I have their information on my home computer but I'm at the office. I searched the net a bit, but couldn't think of if, and my memory (beth) is out of town.

quote:

It’s the ‘deal breaker’ in child custody situations.


This should be cause enough to fight. I've never had to deal with it, but I know of many who in lieu of this aspect of their life being disclosed have given up any rights to their children.

Madame, I will be contacting you. THANKS!

quote:

Alexander: We'd simply become another part of the anti tolerance agenda.

WE ARE ALREADY!


Aren't you tired of it? I sure as hell am! And I'm prepared to walk into any forum and debate the issue. Ignorance and hypocrisy are the easiest hurdles to overcome. I'd use your point regarding the Nazis to make an argument; would you rather be identified as a Jew or a Nazi today? I'm convinced if there were a legitimate active organization people would join. Based on the influx of direct messages I've been receiving, I'd say my assumption is correct. We have a broad constituency base. Our group has the same variety of individuals, business owners, lawyers, doctors, etc. as any other cross section of society. People in our lifestyle just a beacon.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:53:15 PM)

quote:

Until the BDSM image improves it would be better if we support them anonymously. To have one specifically for us would require that we have common and direct legal problem to overcome, unique to ourselves. Currently, I don't know of any such obstacle.


~Morgan (Is that a Morgan le Fay reference?)

Agree wholeheartedly regarding the image. That's reason #1 for pursuing this.

The second part - How about a spouse who uses BDSM activity to coherse the other spouse into relinquishing child custody or divorce settlement. Or what if your employer saw you at the Folsom Fringe at the end of a leash, took a picture and he/she blackmailed you into some activity? The gay community has overcome these obstacles MUCH better then we.




RiotGirl -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 2:58:44 PM)

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onceburned -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 3:11:29 PM)

quote:

I tried volunteering at NCSF, but they seem to have a problem with their volunteer form. Anyway, I never heard back from them.


Yes, I had the same problem.

But NCSF might be a knowledge source that can be tapped. And as Mercnbeth already mentioned some of the national GLBT organizations have a vast amount of experience (and influence), and they could be good sources of know-how.

But the power of the gay rights groups didn't arise overnight... it took a couple decades for them to go from hidden to proud... and the fight still isn't over.

Still, all journeys start with a single step....




MrThorns -> RE: Image (2/24/2005 3:14:25 PM)

A good question to ask is, why has the homosexual movement succeeded? 20 years ago, millions of people were living in the closet, afraid to come out for the very same reasons many BDSMers do...but now, all sorts of people have come out and announced their homosexuality. Politicians, religious leaders, celebrities and several others that, 20 years ago, would have been terrified of their sexual orientation being out in the open.

So how can we be as successful? Ideas?

~Thorns




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