RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 2:49:55 PM)
quote: The Muslim council in question tries to take a civilized stance, one that may educate a few young 'uns as to a better use of religion, and people cry bullshit? It's almost as if people want Muslims to be terrorists.......because when they try not to be they still get stick. Philo, Much credit is given to any whisper in the wood from the Islamic community. As it should. Anything so rare is valuable. Why isn't the same consideration made for pro-USA whispers? No good was and is done by the USA? Are the self-loathing Representatives the only voices of reason? Does any US Corporation represent me? NO! But as an 'American' I am subject to that stereotype. Am I a member or believe in any religious denomination? NO - yet I am stereotyped and so called 'Christian' activity is used to argue against points about Islam activities. The difference, and its a BIG difference, is that as religious dogma and as American dogma there is no goal similar to Islam's "join us or die". Show me an example of any Islamic group distancing or eliminating that basic Islamic dogma. The pope visited Turkey and solicited inclusion at a museum that used to be a cathedral that used to be a mosque. Like him or not, he represents the leadership of the Catholic Church. PLEASE PLEASE point me to a similarly powerful Muslim cleric who offers the same homily?

philosophy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 2:57:22 PM)
As i understand it Merc, (and i may be wrong), there is no equivilant for the Pope in Islam. It seems a far more decentralised religion with no single authority capable of speaking for all, a role the Pope fulfills for Catholics. Thus the equivilant voice is precisely the sort of thing that Fargle quoted, a national muslim council condemning terrorism. Whenever you are stereotyped you are misrepresented, that is precisely the point i am making. Stereotypes tend to misrepresent individuals. We all can choose to try to look beyond stereotypes, i believe that when we do we more nearly approach an accurate view of things.

Sinergy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 2:59:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: I am an honest person, I read that as him wanting a Christian nation for Christians only, the rest of us do not belong. Exactly my point. Nothing you quoted comes close to this: *Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant, he said. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.* Whereas Christian fundamentalist pentacostals know deep in their hearts that the King James New Testament should be the highest authority in America. You were trying to make a point that there is some difference between Muslims and Christians? Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:11:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion. About 2 years ago, 60 Muslims were murdered by Christians in Nigeria due to religious tension and intolerance. There will be a link on the net.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:11:25 PM)
quote: Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear. Sinergy, you know I can sign on for that. quote: there is no equivalent for the Pope in Islam. Philo, True and it is a response I've gotten in debates with Muslims. My follow up question then points to what they do have, sovereign countries. Many countries in the world represent themselves as "Muslim Countries". How do the words from leaders of those countries compare? I know I don't have to quote the Iranian President for you. But what of Saudi Arabia or any of the other "Muslim" states? Where is the voice of any leader of any Muslim country at the UN standing up at the general assembly making the same or similar proclamation as has been quoted? There is ample opportunity. Condemnation of Israel and/or the USA are regularly scheduled events. Sometimes the condemnation even comes from the USA "allies". There are 192 countries that are current members of the UN. No Muslim country among them has ever stood up as a Muslim and condemned any terrorist act perpetrated under the name of his religion. It is the "rationalization" that I have in maintaining my opinion. It is no less irrational than declaring Pat Robertson's opinion to represent Christianity.

Sinergy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:23:14 PM)
Hello A/all, As part of my degree specializing in religious history (dual degree, the other was Asian history), I was able to read many sources including the Old and New Testament, the Koran, I Ching, Vedas, etc. When you compare the various stories in both the Christian Bible (particularly the Old Testament) to the various stories and admonitions in the Koran, one discovers that the far more warlike and vengeful happens to be Christianity. Islam has specific restrictions against killing other Muslims, has specific injunctions towards helping your fellow people, etc. The New Testament mirrors many of these precepts. The majority of Muslims live in Indonesia. These people are not generally warlike, although the economic and political strife in that country begets war. This war, however, does not have much more of a religious veneer than Ireland had. The statement that Islam is a warlike religion is an ignorant statement. Had you actually read the guiding principles of either Christianity or Islam, you would probably arrive at the conclusion that many of the most strident fundamentalist-type activists of either religion have little or no actual education or understanding of the founding beliefs of that religion. One can interpret almost anything to justify their desire to kill somebody. John Hinckly tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. This does not, in and of itself, mean that Jodie Foster is evil. Sinergy edited because one Sinergy is enough.

NorthernGent -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth If it is a misrepresentation then it is extremely dangerous. Intentionally extremely dangerous in order to suit right-wing xenophobic aims. Why aren't the factions of radical Islam as much of a pariah (damn! Used that word twice in one day!) in their own culture as the American Nazi Party is in ours? I won't represent the stereotypical "some of my best friends are Muslims" but I have been to Mosques both in NYC and here and can't get any direct satisfactory explanation. The closest reason that I get is that within the Muslim religion it is a great 'sin' to condemn a fellow Muslim regardless of what they do. How's that for a rationalization? Merc, do you remember all of those links I put up a while ago? There were people from all backgrounds and Islamic countries denouncing terrorism. Some Palestinians were even saying they do not blame the American people, only the American government - pretty charitable considering they've been under the cosh for a long time from American produced military equipment. The Muslim Council of Britain are consistently on television and radio condemning terrorism (evidence was included in the links). Apart from knock on peoples' doors for a personal chat there's not much more they can do. Because I'm taking the "word" from the "official source" of people representing they ARE hell bent on killing me, you, and everyone else not them. My right to belief them, yours not to. No 'judgement'. Who is the official source? When did they say they were hell bent on killing you? If it is one man, how can one man speak for the entire Islamic world?

Real0ne -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Imagine if the world viewed the US as 300 million GWBs. I personally view the misrepresentation of Islam as the most dangerous issue around at the moment. They do view us as just that. at least the fundamentalists and a quick way to tip the scale from moderate to fundamentalist is to do gw did. These people view life through their religion, even the moderates. They have it tough frankly. They do not like what they see but at the same time they like to have what we have in addition to what they have. Its possible but eventually they slip into our way of life and of course many fear that it will destroy their society. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I learned of the existence of CAIR and visit their site regularly to learn more and hope one day to find a definitive clear mission statement from them representing that they condemn terrorist actions being conducted by people representing themselves as Muslim. how could you expect that after we bomb them into the stone age, (like they were not already lol), over an oil deal? Would you condemn terrorism if the same thing happened to you? that and terrorism is our label, not theirs. i think they call themselves freedom fighters. would we deny them the right to protect themsleves from an invading force by all means possible? i would say you have to give them credit for at a minimum being true to their word of lack of it. In america we just give it lip service so it "looks good" and our actions are no different. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth The difference, and its a BIG difference, is that as religious dogma and as American dogma there is no goal similar to Islam's "join us or die". just with catholosism as an example its your god aint as good as my god and you will go to hell if you dont worship my god. same thing as join us or die. you get that from fundamentalists in any religion. quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy As i understand it Merc, (and i may be wrong), there is no equivilant for the Pope in Islam. It seems a far more decentralised religion with no single authority capable of speaking for all, a role the Pope fulfills for Catholics. Thus the equivilant voice is precisely the sort of thing that Fargle quoted, a national muslim council condemning terrorism. its to diverse.. they have a sort of cardinal like system if you want to compare with cath. i am pretty sure then the cards for any tribe hob nob and they would go to who they consider the tribal leader and the tribal leader would speak for that single faction which is different than the other factions quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear. Sinergy yep i would ditto that

Mercnbeth -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 3:44:06 PM)
quote: Who is the official source? When did they say they were hell bent on killing you? If it is one man, how can one man speak for the entire Islamic world? NG, You tell me? You don't see the possibility that one leader of one Muslim country would make a difference? The fact that none has made such a proclamation in front of the UN speaks to their position to me. To you - it doesn't; again - no judgment as to what position is correct. It would make a difference to me, and I'd give a standing ovation upon seeing/hearing it. As to who from the Muslim world represents the Islamic position dedicated to the destruction of the USA, doesn't the President of Iran qualify? I know you have read and heard his often repeated proclamations regarding that goal. Feel free to compare him to President Bush and his entry into Iraqi, but you'll have to come up with an Iranian equivalent of active free opposition, now holding the majority of the public opinion poles saying we should be OUT of Iraq. I trust you've read how the opposition in Iran is treated? I happen to be in the USA. I choose to belief him - you don't. Again no judgment. Am I in your group of the "handful of dedicated xenophobes" because I read his and many other similar positions made by the Muslim world choose to believe them? Label me as you will, as I've stated it's not my words or deeds that determine my position. My views are the result of trying to change them and, in doing the research, being unable to do so.

farglebargle -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 4:37:38 PM)
I think message 273 sufficiently provided the voice of Muslims denouncing violence in the name of The Lord.

Sinergy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 5:32:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion. True. Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to justify it. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 5:49:02 PM)
quote: Sinergy One can interpret almost anything to justify their desire to kill somebody. John Hinckly tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. This does not, in and of itself, mean that Jodie Foster is evil. God that comparison just slays me.

farglebargle -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 5:56:45 PM)
http://www.edge.org/discourse/bb.html#atran As a follow up to a conference run this past Nov., Scott Atran posted these comments. I think everyone involved in the discussion owes it to themselves to take a look, take a break, and then discuss.

juliaoceania -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 6:00:25 PM)
Here is an online book that I had to read for my anthropology and religion class that covered religious extremism, its roots and causes. It also shows the other side of the picture by showing how religion can be a force of peace. http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/apple/frame.htm

philosophy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 7:28:58 PM)
"Many countries in the world represent themselves as "Muslim Countries". How do the words from leaders of those countries compare? I know I don't have to quote the Iranian President for you. But what of Saudi Arabia or any of the other "Muslim" states? Where is the voice of any leader of any Muslim country at the UN standing up at the general assembly making the same or similar proclamation as has been quoted? " http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php here you go Merc........i wonder, how many of these national councils condemnation of terrorism was reported in the US? In the wake of 9/11 would it have been considered somehow unamerican? edited for unaccountable double pasting

Real0ne -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 9:17:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion. True. Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to justify it. Sinergy after the escapades of kermit roseveldt i dont think i would be to quick to go to the bank on that one.

Sinergy -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/9/2007 11:03:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion. True. Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to justify it. Sinergy after the escapades of kermit roseveldt i dont think i would be to quick to go to the bank on that one. Because of Kermit Roosevelt, people do not bomb abortion clinics and black churches in the name of their religion? Sinergy

UtopianRanger -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/10/2007 8:14:17 AM)
quote: Often I think like UtopianRanger, fuck it, let you all get drafted and killed and when the dust clears me and mine will inherit the Earth. I am almost past caring these days Caitlyn. I will just take my beloved child and make sure HE is ok, and let you kids work out your own issues with the right wing. After all, it is your future at stake. Julia.... I musta missed this over the last few days. I hope you do not think that I want to see a draft because it will better a few of us. That's not my ploy. I only want them to announce the news of a draft, because I know it is controversial enough that it will act as catalyst that formulates a rebellion. My hope is that the many will one day get mad enough to take back their government from the few. If they ever announce that there's actually going to be draft, I'll be one of the first ones in the streets to throw tomatoes and eggs at the politicians. To paraphrase my friend Subfever '' Some of us look upon our leaders with the spirit of benevolence, and some of us don't '' [;)] - R

juliaoceania -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/10/2007 8:48:31 AM)
And here I thought you were a Nihilist

UtopianRanger -> RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted (1/10/2007 8:55:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania And here I thought you were a Nihilist Nah.....But I do think Nehilism can be used for the good against the neocons. Don't you agree? [;)] - R

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