Training & The Wild Kingdom

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TravisTJustice -> Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/24/2005 9:24:21 PM)
I have in the past trained a lot of different animals (dogs, cats, talking parrots, rats, etc.) but none has given me as much pleasure as a family of Magpies that visits my yard each morning and afternoon. For you non-Australian readers, Magpies are a wild bird not unlike a Crow or Raven, except they're slightly smaller and have a very distinctive black and white coloring. They're said to be almost as intelligent as them as well. The birds return every spring, each year bringing a new young bird or two and a juvenile bird from the previous season. In the past I've generally thrown food scraps their way but have never had the time or inclination to actively try and tame them in any way. A few months ago I heard an expert say they couldn't be domesticated and that people needn't fear disrupting nature by feeding them. This was because studies had shown they would always forage for 80% of their food needs in the wild, no matter how much food was handed out to them by humans. So anyway, ever since last September/October (spring here) I made a point of having small tid-bits of food set aside for the afternoon feeding of the birds. They love meat, but they're also fond of cheese and even peanuts. Up until about 6 weeks ago I was content to just throw them things to eat, which the adult ones would feed to the young. I also watched as the juvenile bird (about 18 months old) slowly developed its own independence and start feeding itself. This one particular juvenile was the one I targeted for "training" -- to see just how close it would come to accept food from me. It took many patient afternoons, first drawing it closer by not throwing the food as far as usual, but it eventually came to take things from my hand, providing I sat motionless as a statue with my hand open and flat against the ground. From there, and after many successful raids on my hand for food, the bird became more emboldened and soon, using the same motionless statue tactic, I was able to get it to accept food from my hand when my hand was presented on an outdoor table (where I usually sit in the afternoons). The other birds would watch from afar as this went on and while they slowly came closer and closer to take food, they never got anywhere near close enough that I could have touched them. The juvenile bird, however, I can now approach standing up and it will follow me and accept food wherever I offer it. I should add that the bird will not go anywhere near my wife or kids in the same way, regardless of whether or not they try the same feeding tactics I have conditioned the bird to accept. The past few days have seen one of the adult birds now cautiously accepting food from my hand as well and, all-in-all, I'm feeling quite pleased with myself for the accomplishment of "taming" this supposedly totally wild bird. What has any of this to do with BDSM? Well, I was going to write a piece on my dog training experiences and how conditioning is so much an intrinsic part of the training process, and the way most higher order mammals (including humans) will respond to it. I probably still will do this, but the main lesson I think I learned with the birds was that of the rewards there are to be had when a person is patient and consistent. It's the same type of patience and persistence that you need to train dogs and cats, etc. but in many ways you need to have even greater reserves of it if you are to achieve any sort of positive results with "wild" animals or birds. I think the same is true for training a person with submissive tendencies who might not even be aware they have them. I'm not talking about people who have already made the conscious decision to explore this part of their nature, but one of those wonderful "wild" submissives out there roaming the jungles of vanilla land :-) Travis T.

rubytuesday -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/24/2005 10:46:52 PM)
Travis T Thank you for that - I LOVE magpies - they are such an intelligent bird - unfortunately not loved by all as those in the rural areas would tell you - but they are by far my favourite bird - when i lived in the country I loved waking up to their early morning calls. Thanks for reminding me of those memories. smiles ruby

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/24/2005 11:05:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rubytuesday Thank you for that - I LOVE magpies - they are such an intelligent bird - unfortunately not loved by all as those in the rural areas would tell you - but they are by far my favourite bird - when i lived in the country I loved waking up to their early morning calls. A beautiful sound by any measure :-) Travis T.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 5:45:03 AM)
Considering the Owners primary had named all the squirrels and had a few trained in this way in their apartment complex, I found it a very resonating story for me. In training well, you had to understand the birds temperament, and approach it in a way so that the bird not only got what they wanted, but wanted more and felt good enough to take those little leaps of faith. Very cool.

pandoravampire -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 7:16:40 AM)
Hello travis, cant say i even slightly like magpies, lots of english folklore surrounding the bloody things. However, i can relate to training animals and subs and its similarities. Im a switch, but in a loving D/s relationship thats monogamous. My need for the other side is currently being offset by the deliberate purchase of a puppy. He's 9 weeks old, and is adorable as pups are. But the training side of things, ive always related this and mothering to domme side of me. In just one week, the pup is very responsive to reward. Is allready showing his temperment, and this guides me as to what works as a reinforcer for him and whats not successful. as a aside: About 9 months ago, i was walking through the park, when i spotted a man training his dog. Advance obedience. The communication between the young dog, and the trainer was awesome to watch, so in tune to each other. The owner pre-empting mistakes and correcting the dog before they were made. The dog anticipating the owners next command, and largely getting it right. It was a joy to watch. The patience and nurturing shown by the man to the dog was lovely. At that moment, id of swapped places with the dog in a flash[;)] It wasnt you was it?

RiotGirl -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 8:53:39 AM)
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Alexander -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 9:27:43 AM)
We have versions of them here in Santa Barbara as big as housecats. One of the sexiest birds ever created in my opinion, black and straight out of dante. Yet without their mate finches can run them off. for those not well versed in animal training as I am sure T is, please be careful how much you feed or domesticate wild birds and animals. It can literally kill them in dozens of ways if you are not very careful. Alex.

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 2:21:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 approach it in a way so that the bird not only got what they wanted, but wanted more and felt good enough to take those little leaps of faith. That's it precisely! Travis T.

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 3:16:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pandoravampire In just one week, the pup is very responsive to reward. Is allready showing his temperment, and this guides me as to what works as a reinforcer for him and whats not successful. The secret to successful training lies in first being able to get the animal's attention. With puppies, a very good exercise you can do is take them to a park and let them wander free on the end of a very long (10 or more yards/metres), light rope or cord. The pup's naturaly curiosity will have it wandering off in every direction to sniff things, etc. What you want to do let the dog wander in any direction it wants, but very subtly walk away from it in the opposite direction so that it is forced to turn and see what's causing its head to change direction. The rope should be long enough so it doesn't even make the connection that it and you are connected. No vocal commands of any sort should be used at this stage and your body language should be such that you appear to be disinterested in the pup. It will come to be more alert about where YOU are and look to you before just doing its own thing. Once you get this "attention", the rest of basic obedience is really quite easy. Little things you can do around the house that are important: As lovable as pups (and even small dogs) can be, they shouldn't be allowed any special "human" privillages such as sitting on furniture or (horror of horrors) being allowed to sleep with you in bed. If they're going to live in the house at all, they should have their own special bed or cushion for sleeping on. Dominant dogs (regardless of size) can start asserting their desire to climb up the pack order in your house by things as simple as trying to walk through doorways ahead of you. If you open a gate or door, YOU should always go through first so the pup/dog follows. It's amazing, but if you let dogs get away with the little dominant challenges like this one, you WILL have bigger problems ahead of you as the challenges in other things become more aggressive/determined. Do NOT play tug-of-war games with your pup. These games, especially with a dominant natured dog, create "biters". The pup needs to be handled all over, especially in areas that it might find sensitive. They might not ever grow to like it, but you need to desensitize any of those areas that could become triggers for the dog biting when it gets older. Your vet will love you if you do this. quote: as a aside: About 9 months ago, i was walking through the park, when i spotted a man training his dog. Advance obedience. The communication between the young dog, and the trainer was awesome to watch, so in tune to each other. The owner pre-empting mistakes and correcting the dog before they were made. The dog anticipating the owners next command, and largely getting it right. It was a joy to watch. The patience and nurturing shown by the man to the dog was lovely. At that moment, id of swapped places with the dog in a flash[;)] It wasnt you was it? heh Dogs have a set of body language routines that are quite easy to read once you've learned to recognize them. They're very predictable, in other words. Humans also have body language routines, but they're much more complex and thus not as easy for the dog to read, which is part of the reason why dogs like humans so much -- we fascinate them in the ways we tend to be unpredictable. The quickest way to create neuroses in a dog is to lack routines with them and to be inconsistent in your demands of them. When your consistent in your actions and reactions, dogs will quickly come to a point where the outside observer will think the two of you are connected by some kind of ESP. Insofar as pre-empting and correcting mistakes, it's very important not just to correct mistakes but to immediately put the dog back into the same situation that triggered the mistake. This allows the dog to realize it always has a CHOICE -- if it chooses to repeat the mistake, it will be corrected. It's rewarded when it chooses not to repeat the mistake. Aside from the five basic obedience commands (heel, sit, stay, drop, come) you should think about teaching your pup to do one or two "tricks" that the breed might predispose the dog to doing. I had a doberman that would go crazy, barking, growling and baring its teeth all on command. He learned to recognize a discreet finger signal from me and it was all a game, but anybody watching would just see a doberman doing what dobermans are known to do. There was another finger command that would switch him off immediately. Incidentally, it wasn't me you saw :-) Travis T.

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 3:23:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alexander please be careful how much you feed or domesticate wild birds and animals. It can literally kill them in dozens of ways if you are not very careful. This is very true. Bigger wild animals, when lured into urban or semi-urban environments like this can also end up becoming dangerous pests. We have a lot of wild birds come to our yard here, mostly because we've planted the types of native trees that attract them. Water (such as a bird bath) will also attract them without disrupting nature at all. Travis T.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 4:49:02 PM)
quote: I think the same is true for training a person with submissive tendencies who might not even be aware they have them. I'm not talking about people who have already made the conscious decision to explore this part of their nature, but one of those wonderful "wild" submissives out there roaming the jungles of vanilla land :-) One of my boys started out quite vanilla. We did the whole vanilla sex thing the first few times and slowly I started adding kink to see how he would respond. (Sidenote: I do take on vanilla lovers now and then and I usually the thought of training them as sub rarely crosses my mind.) Now he craves my strap-on, my crop whip, bondage and cbt. He's come a long way baby in the last 6 months and I'm so proud of him. It's all about helping one develop their naturally submissive nature. Another thing that sprung to mind when you talked about dog training. I've used Pavlovian tactics when training subs. How fun is that? - LA

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 6:10:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Another thing that sprung to mind when you talked about dog training. I've used Pavlovian tactics when training subs. How fun is that? "Fun" doesn't even BEGIN to describe it! ;-) What I love most about these tactics (and this ties in a little bit with something I was going to respond with in your other thread about "forced" play) is the way it forces/requires the sub to consciously choose -- usually the lesser of two evils. I've always thought most traditional concepts of rape play, for example, were a bit one dimensional in that the sub never really has any say in it after the initial consent -- which in itself is a tricky thing within a fantasy that is largely about non-consensual activity. I'm a bit pushed for time right now, but I'll return and expand on this a bit later today. Travis T.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 6:19:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TravisTJustice What I love most about these tactics (and this ties in a little bit with something I was going to respond with in your other thread about "forced" play) is the way it forces/requires the sub to consciously choose -- usually the lesser of two evils. Ah! The conflict of desires! Then you would love the premise of predicament bondage! - LA

topcat -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 6:56:33 PM)
M.Justice- That may be the best short dog training advice I have ever read- very impressive. the only thing that i might have disagreed with was the 'in the door first' thing- I never considered that dominance, and actually have encouraged it in dogs- they should go in first and wait ... Stay warm, Lawrence

LadyAngelika -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 7:00:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: topcat the only thing that i might have disagreed with was the 'in the door first' thing- I never considered that dominance, and actually have encouraged it in dogs- they should go in first and wait ... Isn't that the exact opposite of what you expect from your sub? - LA

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 7:46:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: topcat M.Justice- That may be the best short dog training advice I have ever read- very impressive. the only thing that i might have disagreed with was the 'in the door first' thing- I never considered that dominance, and actually have encouraged it in dogs- they should go in first and wait ... Thanks Lawrence. It's something I love and thus can talk about it endlessly. The door thing is definitely about asserting dominance. In the wild, the pack leader will always go first which, in a household, should always be the humans. Of course, most breeds of dog if challenged over who enters gates or doors first will concede that point without any problem whatsoever. But where the dog has dominant traits and is likely to be wanting to assert that as it gets older, it's especially important to make these challenges -- as trivial as they might seem -- when the dog is young, otherwise the dog files that "win" away in the back of its head and will be more brazen about challenging you again with more important things as it gets older. The dog that wants to run ahead of you on a lead is another characteristic show of dominance trying to be asserted. Again, many people will overlook this and think "we're all just having a fun outing here" and not think to correct it (or not be willing to make the corrections often enough so the dog learns it can't get away with it). Another interesting manifestation of dominance is when dogs "circle" their owners. The tail can be wagging and they can be leaping all around you like it's a game, but in the wild, this circling behavior is what dogs do when they're sizing up their prey. For most breeds of dog the chances of this type of behavior progressing to any real physical challenge are low, but it is important to be aware of them if you really want to understand what's going on in a dog's head. I once had an doberman I got as an adult dog -- rescued from owners that used to beat it -- and (aside from being hand shy, etc.) she had a lovely nature, but she often revealed her dominance in this circling activity. She was also a "fear biter" which meant lots of work was needed to break her of this habit so she could be trusted around children, etc. Working with dogs that have been mistreated is something that requires extra patience and consistency. Dogs don't experience human emotions like sympathy or pity, but they do understand and react well to consistency of behavior, especially when rewards are involved. Dogs ears, for example, are very sensitive and once you have the trust enough that you can touch them, a simple gentle caress of them is often more appreciated than any food treat. Actually, just re-reading your reply again, my guess is you've already asserted the "who goes in through the door first" dominance and the dog enters on command, rather than just runs in ahead of you. The simple test to see who really is boss would be to challenge that routine, have the dog wait before you enter, and see the reaction. If there's any sort of a challenge at all from the dog, it's a manifestation of a perceived challenge to its dominance. If there's none, then all is right with the world and the earth can continue spinning happily through the universe :-)

NoPinkBalloons -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 8:22:05 PM)
My dog knows who's the boss around our house (and he knows it's not me). I'm pretty ok with that. Personally, I don't see the point in having a pet if I'm not going to spoil him/her. That's why I have them. I do pretty much all the things you say shouldn't be done - Jack is allowed on the furniture, sleeps in my bed, goes through the door in front of me, plays tug-of-war, etc. Fortunately, I have no desire to "train" him. He responds when it's important (he understands a sharp "NO!" and stops what he's doing to see what's going on), and beyond that, it's all good. He's happy, I'm happy, and our world continues to turn. I'm the sort of person who tends to crings when I see dogs doing tricks. It seems utterly humiliating to me, and I'd never want that for my pets. Maybe that's why my step-mother's secretary used to say that if there was such a thing as reincarnation then she wanted to come back as one of my dogs, because she couldn't imagine a better life. :)

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/25/2005 11:33:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons I'm the sort of person who tends to crings when I see dogs doing tricks. It seems utterly humiliating to me, and I'd never want that for my pets. I won't for a second pretend to say you don't utterly adore you pets, Sherri. In my book, anybody who cares about animals at all has to be a good person. In my own defense I will say I have taken the time to "teach tricks" etc. because most of the dogs I've trained were ones that were abused and neglected by owners who weren't like you. I haven't kept any sort of a register or tally board, but many of the dogs I've worked with were destined to be destroyed. If teaching them a "trick" has kept them alive, and kept them alive to enjoy a little bit of quality of life, my job is done. Travis T.

NoPinkBalloons -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 1:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TravisTJustice If teaching them a "trick" has kept them alive, and kept them alive to enjoy a little bit of quality of life, my job is done. You'll get no quibble from me on that. I don't expect everyone to have the same visceral reaction to dogs being made to beg for their food, etc that I do. If your pets are loved and well treated, then it's all good. Mine are too, just in a different way. :)

TravisTJustice -> RE: Training & The Wild Kingdom (2/26/2005 1:35:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons If your pets are loved and well treated, then it's all good. Mine are too, just in a different way. :) :-)

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