RE: US. Security or paranoia? (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 9:21:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

meatcleaver, that is strange....I do not recall the US government asking me for bank numbers....in any case it is a pain to have to list in order the countries you have visited in the last ten years...I mean c'mon, luckily I remember where I travelled to the year before.



They don't have to ask you. The agency or the airline you book your flight with gives them your credit card details, the US then approaches your bank as far as I can make out. Several banks have been discovered giving information to the US. Apparently under threat of US sanction and this is one of the reasons this issue has raised its head again. One of the problems what I heard on German radio was that the US refuses to give details so its only come to light because people who have been to the US have had their accounts accessed and the trail leads back to the US.



caitlyn -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 9:25:36 AM)

You didn't answer the question ... which was:
 
What 'real' right (as opposed to hypothetical rights), would you like to have, that you would have had fifty years ago, and don't have today?

We aren't talking about what other people have said happened to them. That is one side of the story, and for all anyone knows could have been taken off ... amsterdamwhiners.com ... or USnuttyconspiracytheorists.com ... or some similar site. [;)]



sleazy -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 9:32:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Why the fuck did the EU agree to this?


Hang on there, is the same super-democratic body that is more legitimate than the governments of member nations? Or is it in fact more autonomous and less answerable than claimed in previous threads? Guess maybe it does not have its citizens at heart after all.

As for the other media outlets, well guess if the story came out today it wont make print until tomorrows editions.


If that is what you you really think then you don't know the first thing about the EU. I can accept people being against the EU but when when they misrepresent it to justiy their own prejudice it is difficult to take them seriously.

It was not I that claimed the EU had the most democratic legitmacy in an alternative thread. It is that is claiming if the PTB feel it is ok to trample on the little guy it maybe aint as legitimate as claimed.
quote:


The EU is as democratic as your nation state. The fact that the British state is not as democratic as it claims is not the fault of the EU. The EU takes the lead from the nation states and if you followed this story it was Britain that fought for this agreement with the USA. It was Britain that persuaded other countries to compromise.

So one of those states says "Hey, painting all fords purple is a good idea", and all the other states follow along, to me that would suggest there is rational argument behind purple fords, or there are an awful lot of sheep out there.



meatcleaver -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 10:19:53 AM)

The council of Ministers negotiated this agreement with the US, that means the British Foreign Minister was part of the negotiating team. It is the EU Parliament that is concerned with yours, mine and everyone elses right to privacy. The British government is obviously one of those bodies that doesn't care.



sleazy -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:05:40 AM)

Meat

The point I was trying to make, is that just because the british contingent thinks it right does not automatically make it mantra for the rest of the EU.

Other EU members representatives must have agreed too, and if the proposal was subject to the theoretical single veto could have been quashed by just one state voting nay, otherwise I would assume as the most legitimate democracy around it would require at least a majority support.



caitlyn -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:09:11 AM)

So, I guess you have no answer.
 
You may think I'm unwilling to hear anything bad about my country, but that is far from the truth. What bothers me about some of these posts, is that they contain nothing substantial. These posts are like a guy selling meat sandwiches, with no meat in them. That guy shouldn't be too shocked when someone occasionally opens the bread and takes a closer look.



farglebargle -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:17:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Really ... you are being monitored and recorded? How do you know this?



Go read the filings in EFF v. AT&T. It's manifestly clear, based on the included pamphlets of the hardware manufacturers OF the core router taps, that the core routers are in fact being tapped.


quote:


Come on sports fans ... if there is this overwhelming loss of rights, you would think someone could come up with something a little more ... ummmmm ... substantial.


That kind of thinking, "It's only a LITTLE right you've lost" is the way the Nazis did their thing.

NEVER AGAIN.

As Jews, we have an increased moral obligation to respond, to speak out and take action.





meatcleaver -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:18:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You may think I'm unwilling to hear anything bad about my country, but that is far from the truth. What bothers me about some of these posts, is that they contain nothing substantial. These posts are like a guy selling meat sandwiches, with no meat in them. That guy shouldn't be too shocked when someone occasionally opens the bread and takes a closer look.


Not your country, the current administration. Italy is trying something like 20 CIA agents in absentia for abducting and torturing one of its citizens. German y now wants to arrrest seven CIA agents for abducting and torturing one of its citizens. No one expects these agents to come to trial because they are protected by the US. If this administration thinks it has a right to do whatever it wants to citizens of other countries in its war on terror then it is hardly surprising it gets the reputation it has got.

I would imagine most intelligent Americans would see what this adminitration is doing is the implimenting the old Strausian philosophy of controling Americans through fear but don't excpect citizens of other countries caught up in that game to appreciate it.



farglebargle -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:19:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

So, the best you and fargle can do, is hypothetical examples.

I'm wondering who is looking paranoid here. [;)]


Nice of you to discount my proven example of the current filings in the case of EFF v. AT&T as "Hypothetical".




caitlyn -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:26:55 AM)

I'm not discounting it fargle ... but it looks like something that has been closed, or in the process of being closed, in the favor of citizens.
 
If you had no rights, wouldn't this case have never happened?



farglebargle -> RE: US. Security or paranoia? (1/31/2007 11:34:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I'm not discounting it fargle ... but it looks like something that has been closed, or in the process of being closed, in the favor of citizens.

If you had no rights, wouldn't this case have never happened?


This isn't about "NO RIGHTS". This is about infringing on the rights, granted to us by Our Creator.

There's this document "The Declaration of Independence", which explains all about it.






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