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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:27:28 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

By the same token, when a man emails me and attaches a pic of himself wearing a frilly dress and stocking and tells me he wants me to force feminize him, it perplexes me. What bit of the feminisation process will I be forcing?


Perhaps the part with the scapel?



Hard limit!!

Besides, I kind of like to play with cock and balls, when they are still *on* the man!

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 9:16:24 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Status: offline 		Very awesome story.

There's a lot of elements to force play- there's the "I dont have to be responsible for it because they "made" me do it" type of attitude, there's the "I'm an absolute object and this is proven by how they just force me to do what they want with no regard to my feelings" type of attitude, there's the "wow I'm totally NOT in control even to the point of physical control" type of attitude...and I'm sure a couple dozen more.

For me forceplay is inherently resistant. After, what is there to force if there's no resistance? However, you don't need to force something just because there is resistance- they can exist independently.

At any rate, it's just a kink like any other, some love it, some hate it, some don't get it and some wish they did get it.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 10:52:39 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		At one point, I would have said that forced play can help someone overcome an inhibition or some conflict for something that they really want to do, but won't do it without being told to, for whatever reason. And since I have experienced this -- it felt in many ways as if it was forced..........although obviously consensual. However, as stated above, at least at some point became something that was no longer forced and no longer felt that way.

However, I recently had the experience of having a Dom knowingly violate a hard limit of mine during a [play] scene. The mental and emotional after effects were extremely different in the two situations. And no, he wasn't a stranger, is known in the community, and this was not our first time playing.

So is that really forced play or the first example? Or is it just one of those definitions that depends on the user or the context?

harmony

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 5:37:08 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

So is that really forced play or the first example? Or is it just one of those definitions that depends on the user or the context?


I don't think violation of limits is forced play. It's violation. When submissives get involved with me, they know right off the bat that I will push soft limits when I see fit. They've agreed to that from the get go and they usually get some kind of notice before I do. As for hard limits, I do not push those. If a submissive has a hard limit that I wish to push, I will wait until trust is established and I will have a conversation with them to see if there is any flexibility with it. It there still isn't, I drop it. I have too much respect for my submissives.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 7:03:44 AM   
sting516


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I don't think violation of limits is forced play. It's violation. When submissives get involved with me, they know right off the bat that I will push soft limits when I see fit. They've agreed to that from the get go and they usually get some kind of notice before I do. As for hard limits, I do not push those. If a submissive has a hard limit that I wish to push, I will wait until trust is established and I will have a conversation with them to see if there is any flexibility with it. It there still isn't, I drop it. I have too much respect for my submissives.

- LA


i believe it's important to push the soft limits at times...had my limits never been pushed, i would not be open for nearly as much as i am now...the thought of piercings, watersports, and the 'forced' scenes discussed here would never have been broached had i not found people i trusted enough to take me to what at that time i considered the darker side of bdsm.


sting

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 7:19:29 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516

i believe it's important to push the soft limits at times

This is one of the reasons I dislike the "differentiation" between Hard and Soft limits. Because to me a limit is something that you shouldn't cross. A "soft" limit isn't really a limit at all, it's more like a "Yield" sign.

I just keep things clearer- it's either al imit or it isn't. When I play with someone right off, the limits are no blood, no unprotected sex and no permanent marks without the Owners permission. Keep it simple that way no one has to be confused or wake up the next morning with regrets.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 9:01:37 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
i believe it's important to push the soft limits at times

This is one of the reasons I dislike the "differentiation" between Hard and Soft limits. Because to me a limit is something that you shouldn't cross. A "soft" limit isn't really a limit at all, it's more like a "Yield" sign.

I just keep things clearer- it's either al imit or it isn't. When I play with someone right off, the limits are no blood, no unprotected sex and no permanent marks without the Owners permission. Keep it simple that way no one has to be confused or wake up the next morning with regrets.


I can see your point of vue and perhaps it's a question of the term used. I see soft limits as a yield sign too. I see them as something not to be touched until trust is established. Another word can be used if the word soft limit makes someone uncomfortable of course. It is the concept that is important to me.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 9:36:37 AM   
sting516


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From: long island, ny
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


I can see your point of vue and perhaps it's a question of the term used. I see soft limits as a yield sign too. I see them as something not to be touched until trust is established. Another word can be used if the word soft limit makes someone uncomfortable of course. It is the concept that is important to me.

- LA


i would agree to this...soft limits are and should be yield signs until trust is established...of course, what one is doing 'playing' with one they don't have trust for is another matter entirely.

sting

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 9:39:03 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
i would agree to this...soft limits are and should be yield signs until trust is established...of course, what one is doing 'playing' with one they don't have trust for is another matter entirely.

sting


True, though there are levels of trust.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/26/2005 2:14:41 PM   
harmony3709


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

True, though there are levels of trust.

- LA




Absolutely. I may trust the UPS man to deliver a package to my door on time, but I'm not going to trust the UPS man with my Debit card and PIN.

I like differentiating between hard and soft limits, although in a play situation such as the one I described above, I don't make that differentiation because we are basically negotiating what will and will not be done in that specific scene. So all limits are hard limits in that case.

I feel that soft limits are something that I agree will be pushed, in a relationship that I feel comfortable doing that. That could be a friend I play with that I have come to trust, I don't necessarily mean with a Dom who owns me. Limits can also change over time also, so I look at it that soft limits are something that I may not be willing to do right now, but may in the future or if given the right person, setting, etc.

harmony

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/27/2005 11:40:07 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709
I like differentiating between hard and soft limits, although in a play situation such as the one I described above, I don't make that differentiation because we are basically negotiating what will and will not be done in that specific scene. So all limits are hard limits in that case.

I feel that soft limits are something that I agree will be pushed, in a relationship that I feel comfortable doing that. That could be a friend I play with that I have come to trust, I don't necessarily mean with a Dom who owns me. Limits can also change over time also, so I look at it that soft limits are something that I may not be willing to do right now, but may in the future or if given the right person, setting, etc.


So if I understand you correctly, your limits are not set but rather are maliable?

I guess I can understand this as every now and then I get a masochist fix where I bottom to someone I trust with my life. With him, I have absolutely no limits or safewords. I didn't give him this level of trust right away. He earned it over the years.

I have had a few that have trusted me as much as I have trusted him. We didn't have to talk about limits and safewords anymore. We were on the same page. I have felt comfortable in forcing all their limits.

________

I wanted to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread so far because it has made me rethink the use of the word forced and I can understand it better now in the contexts provided.

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 12:38:25 AM   
harmony3709


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So if I understand you correctly, your limits are not set but rather are maliable?




Hmmm..........I had to stop and give that question some thought. I guess I would have to say that you are correct, they actually are maliable, with a few exceptions that are definitely hard limits.

For me, it's also not just the fact that I need to trust a Dom/Top with my physical safety for pushing limits, but also my mental and emotional safety. Pushing even soft limits for me is often something I need to talk about after the fact, possibly sort out how I felt about it, etc. and not necessarily just the immediate after care following a scene. As my limits have changed over time along with my play experience, this has become something I give more thought to in terms of whether I trust someone enough to play with them, publicly or privately.

harmony

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 2:24:53 AM   
GentleLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So if I understand you correctly, your limits are not set but rather are maliable?

- LA

Limits and whether they are hard or soft can also apply to the Dominant. Many years ago I had what I considered a hard limit. No way would I go past it. However I was getting to know a submissive and things were progressing very well. One of his fetishes involved this hard limit. I asked a great deal of questions and listened to his answers. he was able to describe just how good it made him feel. he was also willing to put it on the back burner rather then end the relationship. I had time to re-examine why this was a hard limit for Me and after several months asked him to to step Me through some of the easiest and lighest aspects of it. As I learned how to do it I was able to push My own hard limit to the point that it is no longer there.

There was a similar soft limit that W/we talked about a lot also. The discussions made it sound intriguing and not so out-of-line but it was not until My current submissive that I pushed that limit for Myself. While this activity does not do nothing directly for Me it does achieve the response I require from Mine and is therefore worth repeating.

Gentle Lady


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 4:57:52 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GentleLady
Limits and whether they are hard or soft can also apply to the Dominant. Many years ago I had what I considered a hard limit. [...] As I learned how to do it I was able to push My own hard limit to the point that it is no longer there.



I understand this. Now to stay within the original focus of this thread, you got passed this limit through discussion and exploration, and not by via some forced play, which in turn would make you confront it, right?

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/28/2005 4:59:25 AM >

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 3:08:54 PM   
GentleLady


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Status: offline 		LadyAngelika

That is correct. It was not forced play in that no one else was forcing Me to confront the limits. However, they were limits that I did not need to push within Myself and the last couple of posts had dealt with hard and soft limits. I had to force Myself to do the activities the first couple of times but that may not count because it was by My own choice.

I do not understand the concept of forced play very well and have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest.

Gentle Lady

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All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 3:12:32 PM   
GentleLady


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Status: offline 		harmony3709

Given My earlier post about My own limits, can you tell Me what the difference is between My choosing to push past a hard limit of My own and a submissive NOT using the safeword when I push him past his after discussion about what W/we will be doing?

Gentle Lady

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All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/28/2005 6:58:08 PM   
harmony3709


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GentleLady

harmony3709

Given My earlier post about My own limits, can you tell Me what the difference is between My choosing to push past a hard limit of My own and a submissive NOT using the safeword when I push him past his after discussion about what W/we will be doing?

Gentle Lady



An interesting question. I also have been very intrigued by this thread, because I never really thought of a Dominant or Top having hard limits (as opposed to interests), but it does make sense after the explanations given here.

Given the scenario you described, to me it does not sound like there is any difference. As a Top, you have the freedom of choice, which I see similar to a bottom having a freedom of safe word. Both have the ability to stop the play or not stop; both will push through the hard limit.

While in theory that may sound logical, but when I think of my own personal experience in a scene -- and that is only as a submissive/bottom -- I know that for me, safe wording is something I take very seriously and although it may not be the right way to think of it, if I safe word, I feel as if I had let my Top down, or disappointed them. I also can go very deep into a scene and at times may not even be capable of safe wording. I know other submissives/bottoms who are the same way.

So as a bottom, (for me anyway) safe wording or stopping play that is pushing through a limit, would also have added mental/emotional factors of having disappointed or failed, for safe wording alone and also not pleasing my Dominant by overcoming a limit.

Which makes me then wonder, that as a Dominant/Top, would you have any of those or other emotional issues? Not only with the decision to push through a hard limit, but would you have any sense of disappointment if you felt you needed to stop the scene? (Assuming it was not due to a safety issue.)

And with regard to the original topic of this thread: If you are aware that your submissive may be deep into play or sub space and unable to safe word, or unlikely to safe word, would you consider it forced play to push through a soft or hard limit at that time? Even if it was discussed before hand? If it were not discussed?

harmony

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RE: The premise of forced play - 3/1/2005 2:49:29 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709
So as a bottom, (for me anyway) safe wording or stopping play that is pushing through a limit, would also have added mental/emotional factors of having disappointed or failed, for safe wording alone and also not pleasing my Dominant by overcoming a limit.


Which makes me then wonder, that as a Dominant/Top, would you have any of those or other emotional issues? Not only with the decision to push through a hard limit, but would you have any sense of disappointment if you felt you needed to stop the scene? (Assuming it was not due to a safety issue.)


When I look at where I first started out 12 years ago (essentially a little slap, tickle and bounding boys with their neckties) and compare it to the scenes I have now, I've come a long way in discovering my Domme/Top/Sadist side. Sometimes, after a heavy scene where I pushed my own limits, I've felt a little overwhelmed.

I've explained this to an extent somewhere on the threads before, but here it is, briefly. I repressed my Domme side for a long time. I liked the BDSM dynamic a lot and wanted to learn more and so I *acted sub* for many years, though I switched. I was always afraid of my sadistic desires, thinking I could really hurt someone if I succumbed to them. It took a lot of searching but I’m finally happy with the woman I am today.

So in my years of exploring my Top side, I did have moments where I did pull back from a scene because I wasn’t ready to go where the bottom wished that I went (and for those who want to jump in and say it doesn’t matter where the sub wants to go, well I disagree – everyone has expectations). I didn’t safeword but I did draw back and on a few occasions stop the scene.

To get over these hurdles, I had to force my own self to overcome these limits. I have to thank some of the subs that I’ve had who were patient in discovering with me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709
And with regard to the original topic of this thread: If you are aware that your submissive may be deep into play or sub space and unable to safe word, or unlikely to safe word, would you consider it forced play to push through a soft or hard limit at that time? Even if it was discussed before hand? If it were not discussed?

harmony


Good question. I think it would have to depend on her/his body language and what my instincts told me at the time.

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 3/2/2005 12:30:28 PM   
GentleLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709

So as a bottom, (for me anyway) safe wording or stopping play that is pushing through a limit, would also have added mental/emotional factors of having disappointed or failed, for safe wording alone and also not pleasing my Dominant by overcoming a limit.

Which makes me then wonder, that as a Dominant/Top, would you have any of those or other emotional issues? Not only with the decision to push through a hard limit, but would you have any sense of disappointment if you felt you needed to stop the scene? (Assuming it was not due to a safety issue.)


I would definately feel disappointed in Myself if I could not push through a hard limit of My own AFTER deciding that I wanted to. That is why I think very carefully about the decision first to make sure I want to proceed. I would feel as if I was letting Myself down. I would also feel as if I was letting My submissive down if I had promised to do something and then could not because I had (in My words) 'chickened out'. For various personal reasons I had walked away from giving pain at one point in time. I believed that I was no longer capable. It took a great deal of thought to push past that and I told My submissive at the time that the best I could promise was to try. When I picked up the flogger the first time I fully expected time bombs to go off in My head but this was something I truly wanted to do. I would have been disappointed if I had freaked out but would have understood.


quote:

ORIGINAL: harmony3709

And with regard to the original topic of this thread: If you are aware that your submissive may be deep into play or sub space and unable to safe word, or unlikely to safe word, would you consider it forced play to push through a soft or hard limit at that time? Even if it was discussed before hand? If it were not discussed?



There are a lot of variables in that decision. If the limit had been discussed AND the body language of the submissive was still signalling that he was all right, then I would most likely proceed. If the body language was registering distress then I would not take him past the limit. But that applies to any activity. If at any time the body language signals that something is not right then I stop...either temporarily until he settles or I stop completely and W/we discuss what is happening.

When the limit (hard or soft) has been discussed and the submissive wishes that limit pushed, I do not think of it as forced play. But that is just Me.

Gentle Lady


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All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 3/6/2005 6:49:39 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
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Status: offline 		In a SSC relationship, one cannot be "forced" into anything, but they may be coerced into trying something that goes beyond a comfort level, or "soft limit".

If you have a relationship with safe words, or gestures, one can always opt out.

(in reply to GentleLady)
Profile   Post #: 40
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