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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 3:01:09 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Whilst those dismissing "God" are

a) psychologically healthy
b) highly intelligent
c) thoroughly clear thinkers
d) not subject to manipulation

e) just a tad smug

Then again, Lady Ellen may have been joking, in which case LOL.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/13/2007 3:05:24 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 3:50:03 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Whilst those dismissing "God" are

a) psychologically healthy
b) highly intelligent
c) thoroughly clear thinkers
d) not subject to manipulation

e) just a tad smug

Then again, Lady Ellen may have been joking, in which case LOL.

I wish I had been.

But then, its hard to tell with me - what with me being a dangerous psychotic and all.

Not to mention completely stupid of course.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 3:58:05 PM

adaddysgirl

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This is what it sounds like, doesn't it?

To mc (and NG as appropriate):

i still don't think either of you are answering my question. You are bringing up science and you are bringing up politics. i am not talking about the rulers of countries....i am talking about your average joe schmoes like me.

i know some atheists in RL. They have made it clear that they do not believe in the same as i do, and that is the end of it. They respect me for my choice just as i respect them. They feel no need to try to convince me otherwise, and vice versa.

Sp i'm still not getting the point of the debate. Are you trying to convert someone here or what? Do you think that after stating all your points, that someone who has a strong faith in a God is just going to say 'Oh, i have read your posts mc and although you cannot scientifically nor conclusively prove that God does not exist, you have won me over. i am ready to become a non-believer now' ? Or as far as afterlife, again 'Oh yes mc, all my life i have chosen to believe there is an afterlife although it cannot be proved but i think i would rather think your way, that we all end up in a box in the ground with no chance of any existence thereafter'. i mean, do you really think this is going to happen?

If not, again, what is your point? To educate us in your beliefs? To 'save us' from ourselves? i still don't get what it is.

And as Lady E observed, it almost sounds like you are implying we are less intelligent than non-believers and i do find that a bit insulting. Is that the point you are trying to make?

i believe in a souls, auras and white light (amongst other non-tangible nor provable existences). i can respect if you believe in none of those and feel no need to disparage you in any way. Is it impossible for you to say the same?

DG

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 4:05:26 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

To mc (and NG as appropriate):

i still don't think either of you are answering my question. You are bringing up science and you are bringing up politics.

The whole point of my drawn out introduction was to lay the scene that I find science as equally as boring as god so I've no vested interest in this discussion.

My point was/is: control your own destiny - don't rely on a bloke you've never seen and don't let an author of a book and a bloke in robes dictate your life. That's all.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 4:36:53 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

i know some atheists in RL. They have made it clear that they do not believe in the same as i do, and that is the end of it. They respect me for my choice just as i respect them. They feel no need to try to convince me otherwise, and vice versa.

Sp i'm still not getting the point of the debate. Are you trying to convert someone here or what? Do you think that after stating all your points, that someone who has a strong faith in a God is just going to say 'Oh, i have read your posts mc and although you cannot scientifically nor conclusively prove that God does not exist, you have won me over. i am ready to become a non-believer now' ? Or as far as afterlife, again 'Oh yes mc, all my life i have chosen to believe there is an afterlife although it cannot be proved but i think i would rather think your way, that we all end up in a box in the ground with no chance of any existence thereafter'. i mean, do you really think this is going to happen?

It is someone's right to believe what they want but don't ask me to respect someone who believes in something for which there is no evidence, if that was the case I'd be demanding respect for believing in pink elephants that recite Shakespeare. All I ask believers, is what do you base your belief on other than belief itself? If you say nothing more than what is in your imagination then I would say you are insulting your own intelligence, you don't need me to insult it.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 4:44:23 PM

LadyEllen

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I'm sorry MC, and hope that you'll rethink and rewrite it - you have no respect for someone who believes?

I can go with a view that one need not respect a belief, but to disrespect those professing a belief is just wrong, in my opinion.

But then, thats something religion has taught me, so feel free to dismiss it I guess. Even so, I dont disrespect you for holding the opinion that I am not worthy of respect. I only find that opinion to be erroneous, and rather unbecoming of you.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 4:56:51 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry MC, and hope that you'll rethink and rewrite it - you have no respect for someone who believes?

I can go with a view that one need not respect a belief, but to disrespect those professing a belief is just wrong, in my opinion.

But then, thats something religion has taught me, so feel free to dismiss it I guess. Even so, I dont disrespect you for holding the opinion that I am not worthy of respect. I only find that opinion to be erroneous, and rather unbecoming of you.

E

Would you respect me for believing that I had to hate homosexuals, stone adultresses and not allow my daughter out of the house without a chaperone?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/13/2007 4:57:18 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 5:04:55 PM

LadyEllen

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Again, you pick on clearly redundant lines of thinking in one batch of religion, to condemn all belief and thereby to dismiss "God".

Religion of course, in the foreign form we have it, is its own worst enemy in this, because it is incapable of change, being scripture. But that religion, is not all religion, and in my opinion at least, 99% of that religion is redundant, if ever it applied to us at all.

It is rather like in reverse, picking up a science book from 1850 and using what it says to dismiss all findings of science and indeed the very notion of science as clearly flawed, since it changes its ideas so often.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 5:16:39 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

hate homosexuals, stone adultresses and not allow my daughter out of the house without a chaperone

Mr. Strawman, fancy meeting you here!

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 5:17:03 PM

meatcleaver

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Belief without any reason can end up being, well...unreasonable. I accept that most people who have a belief are reasonable and moral people but my guess is they are reasonable and moral in spite of their belief. However, just because someone's belief appears to be harmless, if it isn't based on reason then they leave themselves open to manipulation because they aren't thinking clearly. To paraphrase, there will always be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things but it takes religion (one could enter belief here) to make a good man do bad things.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 5:18:06 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

hate homosexuals, stone adultresses and not allow my daughter out of the house without a chaperone

Mr. Strawman, fancy meeting you here!

Hey! Have respect, it's a belief!

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 5:31:48 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Again, you pick on clearly redundant lines of thinking in one batch of religion, to condemn all belief and thereby to dismiss "God".

No, we condemn all belief and the idea of god as being baseless and without any evidence whatever. That is enough in my view. We further condemn specific religious views as teaching anti-intellectualism, bigotry, hatred, war-mongering, gender superiority, belief superiority, etc. Yes, 55% of the world population claims to be following a religion that teaches those kinds of things.

The only clear point we are championing in science is that ideally one is participating in a universally accepted reality without such destructive teachings. Science teaches that your brain and your own capacity for understanding should be your guiding light. There is no room for teaching false morality.

I could further suggest that branches of scientific thought like cultural anthropology are very useful in bringing cultures together. I think it's fair to suggest that we fear the strange and as anthropology teaches us what we don't know about other cultures we become less ignorant and more accepting of the habits of others.

I also dislike sweeping generalizations, but I have rarely seen as a judgmental a creature as the average American Christian. Sure, some are instead salt of the earth people that are decent to a fault. There are also many that think homosexuals should be killed, black people are the descendants of Cain, and that women are inferior creatures, and I could keep on going...

I cannot bring myself to respect such beliefs. I find them objectionable in any modern person. And yet these crackpot notions have to supposedly be respected as part of someone's belief system. It is to ask the impossible.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 7:37:22 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking
If I believed in a concept of sub-quark particles called "farkles", would you say that theory was a "Farkles in the Gap" argument? LOL

No. I'd say "that's a rhetorical trick called reductio ad absurdum".

OR

I'd say, "Show me the evidence".

Then I'd say, "go find out what God of the Gaps means". Then I'd suggest reviewing this web page
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html
or this one
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#lll

Then I'd say, "read Prometheus Rising by R.A. Wilson".

Then I'd say, "get back to me".

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 1/13/2007 8:32:50 PM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 7:52:33 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Can we establish then;

Those claiming a faith/belief in, or knowledge of "God" are
a) ~~psychologically afflicted,~~
b) ~~of low intelligence,~~
c) lazy thinkers,

Those perpetuating and/or promoting the notion of such faith/belief or knowledge are

a) ~~unwitting stooges~~
b) ~~possibly dangerous psychotics~~
c) superstitious ~~fools~~

Whilst those dismissing "God" are

a) ~~psychologically healthy~~
b) ~~highly intelligent~~
c) ~~thoroughly clear thinkers~~
d) ~~not~~ LESS subject to manipulation

E

How'd I do? I usually score well with multiple choice.

Z.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 8:38:57 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

hate homosexuals, stone adultresses and not allow my daughter out of the house without a chaperone

Mr. Strawman, fancy meeting you here!

Strawman vs Strawman = Fair Fight.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 9:26:19 PM

Sinergy

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Hello A/all,

I may have said this before, but I find people stridently insistent that there is no God (s) as puzzling to me as people who stridently insist there is one (or more) God (s).

Far as I am concerned, people can believe what they want.

The people who bash science puzzle me. I wonder if their blanket dismissal of science is working when their doctor says they should take penicillin to avoid contracting Rheumatic Fever. Do they say "No, Science is bad?"

Sinergy

p.s. on a related note, I suppose if they did it would be further proof that Darwin was right because the science bashers would eventually die off.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 10:11:23 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

The people who bash science puzzle me. I wonder if their blanket dismissal of science is working when their doctor says they should take penicillin to avoid contracting Rheumatic Fever. Do they say "No, Science is bad?"

Sinergy

p.s. on a related note, I suppose if they did it would be further proof that Darwin was right because the science bashers would eventually die off.

There are no disbelievers of science in ERs

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 10:12:52 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

hate homosexuals, stone adultresses and not allow my daughter out of the house without a chaperone

Mr. Strawman, fancy meeting you here!

Strawman vs Strawman = Fair Fight.

Okay, I'll bite: Who's the other straw man?

Great sigfile, btw.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 10:47:25 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Okay, I'll bite: Who's the other straw man?

Great sigfile, btw.

Ah - it seems you were calling MC himself, Mr. Strawman, rather than referring to a specific point he made (my error).

I was mere observing that a goodly population of strawman arguments had been presented on both sides, although I'd be obliged to suggest that the rationalist contingent is outnumbered.

TY re sig file - I wish I had said it and not just quoted it (and yeah, OK, I'm pretty pugnacious for a guy with Zen in his nick).

Z.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 10:56:00 PM

dcnovice

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No, "Mr. Strawman" was his selection of extreme beliefs from the Hebrew Scriptures, which he seemed to be offering as representative of all believers (a group that does not necessarily include me; still sorting that out.) It was definitely not meant for MC himself.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/13/2007 11:02:34 PM >

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