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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 11:20:09 PM

Chaingang

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Yeah, that's not actually what Straw Man means. A Straw Man argument presupposes an exaggerated view not actually expressed by the opposition - but as there are religions expressing those very views it is not a Straw Man argument, those views actually exist within Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Perhaps those extreme views are not your views, but it doesn't defeat mentioning them for the purposes of this thread.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 11:24:57 PM

dcnovice

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It may not preclude mentioning them, but presenting them as representative (which MC seemed to be doing, though I may have misread him) seems to (a) reflect unawareness of the incredible diversity of views both between and within different traditions and (b) fall short, at least imho, of intellectual rigor.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/13/2007 11:27:46 PM >

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 202

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/13/2007 11:46:21 PM

Chaingang

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That's a pretty lame viewpoint.

Religious groups are known to have exhibited very intense intolerance throughout the years. The witch hunts were intolerance of paganism. Catholics teach that the use of condoms is sinful. Mormons teach black people are the descendants of Cain (black skin being the "mark of Cain"). Just because each of these views doesnt represent a whole group that numbers in the billions doesn't mean that large numbers are not represented. LDS people are approx. 12 million members strong. That's a lot of people believing in some serious bullshit.

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Post #: 203

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 2:08:56 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

It's ironic that Jesus specifically advocated a complete seperation of religion from politics. It's too bad no one wants to follow His teachings. When religion and politics are interwoven, it's a problem, period. Whether it's the politics or the religion, i couldn't say. You will think one way, i will think another. Once again, i see this thread as being a way to bash others and serves no one but as a forum for bigotry.

We don't actually know what Jesus said or taught, we have several versions of what he was supposed to have said and taught. We know very little about the historical Jesus apart from the fact that he probably did exist along with quite a few other people claiming to be the mesiah around the same time in Palestine.

The quote “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” was certainly a diplomatic statement if in fact he did say it, to what was a trick question. However, this has been used to illustrate that Jesus believed in separation of religion and state but he could have been merely doing nothing more than dodging a trick question. In his time and in his culture, religion and politics were inextricably linked. The god of Israel was the god of the Jews and the land of Israel which the Roman's occupied was god's land that he had given the Jews. Religion and politics were inseparable.

Oh this circular logic gets no where. Even when i pointed out that purely secular wars and agendas have killed millions, you twist it into "pseudo-religious" so that you can skew the facts to fit your beliefs which sounds so very much like the same thing you accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you. Since Roman Emporors and Egyptian Pharoahs were also "gods" then we can agree that all war is religious... althouth ALL war is political in its motive. Do you really believe that anyone believes crashing airplanes into office buildings is the most effective way to spread Islam? Why not crash airplanes into the Vatican then?

Stalin and Mao between them killed 100 million people but you claim that was religious because they set themselves up as a replacement for religion in what you call the "cult of the individual" so that anything that replaces religion becomes religion? Just another strange way to skew facts to fit your belief because if a thing is bad it must be religion.

By your logic then, if we should not follow a human leader any more than we should follow a spiritual path, it would be a logical conclusion that all submissives and slaves are also idiots and irrational. Or is that just sex?

If it serves you to think you are right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong then i can only conclude that some folks would simply rather be "right" than happy.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:03:48 AM

seeksfemslave

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Meatcleaver is so rigid and inflexible in his attitude, that as an expert in human behaviour lol ,I am beginning to think there exists some deep dark secret in his background. Could speculate but it would be deemed offensive I guess.

Its not called Anally retentive for nothing !!!

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 205

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:18:57 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Oh this circular logic gets no where. Even when i pointed out that purely secular wars and agendas have killed millions, you twist it into "pseudo-religious" so that you can skew the facts to fit your beliefs which sounds so very much like the same thing you accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you. Since Roman Emporors and Egyptian Pharoahs were also "gods" then we can agree that all war is religious... althouth ALL war is political in its motive. Do you really believe that anyone believes crashing airplanes into office buildings is the most effective way to spread Islam? Why not crash airplanes into the Vatican then?

Stalin and Mao between them killed 100 million people but you claim that was religious because they set themselves up as a replacement for religion in what you call the "cult of the individual" so that anything that replaces religion becomes religion? Just another strange way to skew facts to fit your belief because if a thing is bad it must be religion.

By your logic then, if we should not follow a human leader any more than we should follow a spiritual path, it would be a logical conclusion that all submissives and slaves are also idiots and irrational. Or is that just sex?

If it serves you to think you are right and anyone who doesn't think like you is wrong then i can only conclude that some folks would simply rather be "right" than happy.

It's not for me to defend empires for the crimes they commited. As for Stalin and Moa, they used the same techniques that religion has always used to get their message across. If propaganda and indoctrination fail, then violence will reign. You forgot to mention Hitler who was a christian and it is difficult to argue against the fact because he left so many quotes behind. There seems to certainly have been something in the zeitgeist of the 20th century to produce this trio.

I didn't say no one should follow a human leader, leaders seem to be a necessary evil in human society but what I say is that one shouldn't blindly follow a leader, one should disect their actions and beliefs with reason and if they are found wanting, campaign against them. I'm not sure where subs and slaves come into this, everyone has a brain and is capable of using it. It is a choice if one uses it or not but don't expect respect if you refuse to use it and blindly follow someone who has an irrational belief.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:21:30 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Meatcleaver is so rigid and inflexible in his attitude, that as an expert in human behaviour lol ,I am beginning to think there exists some deep dark secret in his background. Could speculate but it would be deemed offensive I guess.

Its not called Anally retentive for nothing !!!

There is nothing inflexible in my attitude. Give me evidence of a deity existing and I'll show you how flexible I am but don't ask me to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. If I said I beleived in little green men that control our thoughts, you would think I was bonkers and I'd be shut in an asylum but you are asking people to believe in something equally bonkers.

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Post #: 207

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:51:15 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's not for me to defend empires for the crimes they commited. As for Stalin and Moa, they used the same techniques that religion has always used to get their message across. If propaganda and indoctrination fail, then violence will reign. You forgot to mention Hitler who was a christian and it is difficult to argue against the fact because he left so many quotes behind. There seems to certainly have been something in the zeitgeist of the 20th century to produce this trio.

A point worth adding is much of the organised violence/war in the 20th century was fuelled by ethnic divisions.

WW1 - kicked off in the old Austria-Hungary empire which was a mish-mash of numerous ethnic groups.

WW2 - kicked off in areas such as Poland and Czechoslovakia where ethnic Germans lived (in an attempt to create a Greater Germany to dominate other ethnic groups).

The Korean war, the civil war in China, civil wars in Rwanda, Burundi, Ethiopia, Sudan......the Bangladeshi war of independence, Iran-Iraq war. All of this violence was fuelled by ethnic divisions.

The link to religion is this: religion is a key component which often distinguishes an ethnic group from another and sows the seeds for a sense of ethnic superiority. For example, the general view of the Christian world is that Islam is a barbaric, backward religion (this view is consistently projected on this board). It is this thinking that creates a climate where people are led to believe that one ethnic group has a right or a duty to impose its own ethnicity on another (a la the US led invasion) i.e. there is an attempt to justify such invasions because "they're only Muslims and they believe in the 7 virgins nonsense etc". This is classic perceived ethnic superiority fuelled by religion and concentrating on the perceived negative attributes of a religion and its followers.

In sum, the evidence suggests that organised religion plays a role in fuelling organised violence (which in effect is what a war really is). The extent of this role is open to debate. In my opinion, religion does not cause war but it is a key propaganda tool for governments to garner support for organised violence.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/14/2007 3:52:57 AM >

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:51:16 AM

LadyEllen

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Words fail me.

String theory? Quantum theory? What a load of crap!

Ergo, all science is rubbish. More, the scientific method is rubbish.

And let me join my opponents' technique, in labelling anyone who proposes and/or promotes the idea of science, as intellectually dim, psychologically deficient and clearly dangerous, and worthy of no respect whatever.

Actually no.

I find it interesting that the religion types here, have more than enough time and use for science, both in theory and in application. Whilst the science types have no use for religion whatever, and without any hindrance condemn the religious with accusations not out of place in terms of being sub-human.

More interesting is, that this attitude from the science types demonstrates not any superiority of one or the other side, (both are needful, in reality), but it does seem to me to show on which side the more mature and sensible view is, and that however much they may malign religion, the science types would clearly benefit from a greater familiarity with it.

E

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 3:56:40 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Words fail me.

String theory? Quantum theory? What a load of crap!

Ergo, all science is rubbish. More, the scientific method is rubbish.

And let me join my opponents' technique, in labelling anyone who proposes and/or promotes the idea of science, as intellectually dim, psychologically deficient and clearly dangerous, and worthy of no respect whatever.

Actually no.

I find it interesting that the religion types here, have more than enough time and use for science, both in theory and in application. Whilst the science types have no use for religion whatever, and without any hindrance condemn the religious with accusations not out of place in terms of being sub-human.

More interesting is, that this attitude from the science types demonstrates not any superiority of one or the other side, (both are needful, in reality), but it does seem to me to show on which side the more mature and sensible view is, and that however much they may malign religion, the science types would clearly benefit from a greater familiarity with it.

E

It is your perogative to say its crap, it's your perogative to prove it is crap if you want. You won't find any scientists saying it is sacred and shouldn't be questioned, in fact there is an open invitation to question all science because questioning it only strengthens its methods. Just saying it is crap without any reasoned argument or evidence will just lead to you not being taken seriously however.

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Post #: 210

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:14:50 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Meatcleaver is so rigid and inflexible in his attitude, that as an expert in human behaviour lol ,I am beginning to think there exists some deep dark secret in his background. Could speculate but it would be deemed offensive I guess.

Its not called Anally retentive for nothing !!!

There is nothing inflexible in my attitude. Give me evidence of a deity existing and I'll show you how flexible I am but don't ask me to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence. If I said I beleived in little green men that control our thoughts, you would think I was bonkers and I'd be shut in an asylum but you are asking people to believe in something equally bonkers.

i've never asked anyone to believe the way i believe and i don't resort to name-calling. It sounds like i am supposed to come to you and the OP to tell me what is rational and right?
i get the impression that it's perfectly okay for religious zealots with political motives to attack the United States but it's horribly wrong to respond to those attacks. It's perfectly okay to attack someone's spiritual beliefs but horribly wrong to respond to those attacks. i must not have a brain because i don't see either attitude as anything other than bigotry.

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RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:25:35 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You won't find any scientists saying it is sacred and shouldn't be questioned, in fact there is an open invitation to question all science because questioning it only strengthens its methods. Just saying it is crap without any reasoned argument or evidence will just lead to you not being taken seriously however.

Do not be dense, mc. The same applies to the investigation of the spiritual, so these words that you throw at spiritual people can be reversed and thrown back again at you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
There is nothing inflexible in my attitude. Give me evidence of a deity existing and I'll show you how flexible I am

Seeks' case proven by your own words. You clearly are not able to think outside the box, mc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
but don't ask me to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence.

There are billions of testimonies, mc. Are those people all crazy? Perhaps you should join a colony of apes, who are not known to have religion. Then you would be living among normal 'people' instead of crazies, not so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If I said I believed in little green men that control our thoughts, you would think I was bonkers and I'd be shut in an asylum but you are asking people to believe in something equally bonkers.

You would be surprised what I think of your hypothetical claim, but then I have my reasons, whereas you do not. In any case your thoughts are being controlled. Ask any psychologist or media science person.

I have not read the previous few pages, but on this page eyesopened, LE and seeks says sensible things, whereas you do not.

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/14/2007 4:28:03 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 212

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:34:25 AM

LadyEllen

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Throughout though MC - you are taking one religion and one God as your specimen - a specimen which as I have said time and again is clearly redundant and useless, and because of that redundancy and uselessness in that particular specimen you dismiss all religion and the notion of God.

I came to the same conclusion when I investigated it all, in depth, with this particular specimen. Most of it is rubbish - a patently absurd construction from the start, or else has become so over time. This does not disprove God, though it does tend to undermine the entire notion of God, for as you have pointed out in the past I believe, that particular specimen is so absurdly contradictory both within itself and by comparison to our culture, it cannot possibly be true.

However, there is more than one religion in the world and many models of God. I cannot claim to have continued my investigations into every religion and every model of God, but I have investigated a sufficient number of both to have realised that whilst each does not necessarily make complete sense, there is a commonality there which represents what is the kernel at the heart of all religion and all models of God. The kernel makes perfect sense - it is the cultural and historical material surrounding it in each case which is questionable.

What I object to MC, is being labelled as stupid, simply because I have investigated and found something. Or being labelled as psychotic because I claim to have experienced something. In science, the same thing occurs - a scientist will investigate and find something; I dont label him/her as a nut for his/her claims.

Next of course, you will say that my claim is subjective, whilst the scientist can provide replicable evidence by peer review, which makes it objective. What then of the millions worldwide who claim the same findings and experiences as I? Does this not count as replicability and peer review? You will then say, oh but anyone could replicate the science results; but this is hardly the case is it? I dont happen to have trained in the skills required to replicate the science results, so its doubtful I could. And the average scientist has not trained in the spiritual skills required to understand my findings either. So all in all, neither should have the temerity to label the other as stupid, for their specialisation. I dont need to train in geology to understand and accept the findings of that science.

My failure to understand some of Hawking's writings does not invalidate them, and especially does not invalidate him. He is a specialist, and hence will possess knowledge and training in that field far different to mine. There is equally little grounds to invalidate my findings or me personally, for having a speciality at variance with your knowledge and training.

Science can of course pick apart outdated and redundant religious models. I will take part in it. But the immutability of one form of religion and its consequent inability to evolve as a fossilised form, does not disprove the value of religion or God; rather it disproves the value of that particular religion and God, and demonstrates that religion is well overdue a new incarnation.

E

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Post #: 213

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:36:22 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Words fail me.

String theory? Quantum theory? What a load of crap!

Ergo, all science is rubbish. More, the scientific method is rubbish.

*laughs* What is interesting about the string theory is that when it didn't work it became the closed-string theory (sounds more like a circle) and when that didn't work it because closed-string upon closed-strings to form a tube... but science forbid the string theory be abandoned in favor of the tube theory for fear the originator look silly... just continue to modify the facts to fit the hypothesis and all will be right with the world.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Post #: 214

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:39:35 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
God / Divine. The two words are virtually identical. Just because you capitalise the D doesn’t mean you have created a new, improved definition. In fact you are just clouding the issue by moving god to the universe next door, as if that accomplishes anything of substance. It doesn’t even change things in the abstract. It’s bumbling sophistry.

Words work because, for a generation or two at a time, they retain certain, fairly specific meanings, called definitions. If you are in doubt about the current meaning of a word, consult a modern dictionary. When you reinvent the meanings of words for convenience or for use as semantic bludgeons, you end up talking to yourself or to people who have a similar disregard for accuracy and thus probably understand you even less than those of us who require concision.

Possibly you mistake childhood fancies for adult realities. The Tooth Fairy makes losing your teeth a little less traumatic but it is the grown up that puts the money under your pillow. Santa is an adult re-invention for controlling the behaviour of children – do you believe that he literally exists too? My childhood connects me to truths about myself not the origin of the universe.

Possibly you believe that rational people are incapable of joy, wonder or just plain appreciation of life and living it. This has been advanced many, many times in these two threads. It is merely an attempt to dehumanise rational people with name calling and labeling - like your repeated insinuation that MC is irrational (unless you have re-coined the word to mean the opposite of it’s present definition?) or that he is a drunkard (even though, if we put your posts and his before a panel and asked which were written under the influence of mind-altering substances, I believe you would win hands down).
When I look up at the stars I still go WOW, just like when I was a kid and had no notion of their mechanics. In fact my WOW is even bigger and deeper now BECAUSE of my understanding of their nature and their part in nature.

I love ceremony and ritual. I love stories and myths. I am as comfortable describing the winter solstice as a battle between the Holly King and the Oak King as I am understanding that it is the time when the north pole is at its furthest from the celestial equator. Believe it or not, I am a fully capable of imagination, art, creative and emotional experiences, of feeling connected to a great mystery, even of love.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Stop looking for objective evidence and instead go sit on the lap of Santa Claus. It is subjective evidence that convinces a believer.

This is a joke, right? Because it couldn’t possibly be your thesis.

You so do not get my point and misunderstand me, as shown by all of the above, that I recommend that you start worshipping me.

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 215

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:41:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You won't find any scientists saying it is sacred and shouldn't be questioned, in fact there is an open invitation to question all science because questioning it only strengthens its methods. Just saying it is crap without any reasoned argument or evidence will just lead to you not being taken seriously however.

Do not be dense, mc. The same applies to the investigation of the spiritual, so these words that you throw at spiritual people can be reversed and thrown back again at you.

Rule. All I can assume from your spiritual inquiries is that you spend far too much time in the coffeeshops studying weed, it is the only explanation I have for your statements such 'you have to look for subjective evidence'

There is nothing so dense said on this thread as that!

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Post #: 216

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:47:01 AM

eyesopened

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Let me point out one thing. In the natural world, the animals "war" with each other daily over territory and mating rights and i think everyone here would agree that animals have no religion. They still fight each other. Not always to the death but they still fight and sometimes to the death. Entire prides of lions will fight off another pride for territory. Hyenas kill lions for the right to the lion's food. There is no religion involved, no deity invoked.

Getting rid of religion, will not end war. Period.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 217

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:48:39 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Words fail me.

String theory? Quantum theory? What a load of crap!

Ergo, all science is rubbish. More, the scientific method is rubbish.

*laughs* What is interesting about the string theory is that when it didn't work it became the closed-string theory (sounds more like a circle) and when that didn't work it because closed-string upon closed-strings to form a tube... but science forbid the string theory be abandoned in favor of the tube theory for fear the originator look silly... just continue to modify the facts to fit the hypothesis and all will be right with the world.

You do notice in regard to science, theories are just that, theories. In religion you speak of truth while not even having a theory that can be tested, never mind evidence. Of course hypothesis are modified, just think for a minute what a hypothesis is. There is no pretence that these theories are anything other than speculative. They are not sold as truth or fact like the 'virgin birth', the 'holy trinity' and 'mother of god' and countless other childish fables which can actually be traced back to earlier pagan religions and are known to added on to christianity to make it palatable in the Roman empire but is still somehow believed by 'intelligent' people to be fact! No need to go through all the other rediculous religious fables.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 218

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 4:49:03 AM

NeedToUseYou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's not for me to defend empires for the crimes they commited. As for Stalin and Moa, they used the same techniques that religion has always used to get their message across. If propaganda and indoctrination fail, then violence will reign. You forgot to mention Hitler who was a christian and it is difficult to argue against the fact because he left so many quotes behind. There seems to certainly have been something in the zeitgeist of the 20th century to produce this trio.

A point worth adding is much of the organised violence/war in the 20th century was fuelled by ethnic divisions.

WW1 - kicked off in the old Austria-Hungary empire which was a mish-mash of numerous ethnic groups.

WW2 - kicked off in areas such as Poland and Czechoslovakia where ethnic Germans lived (in an attempt to create a Greater Germany to dominate other ethnic groups).

The Korean war, the civil war in China, civil wars in Rwanda, Burundi, Ethiopia, Sudan......the Bangladeshi war of independence, Iran-Iraq war. All of this violence was fuelled by ethnic divisions.

The link to religion is this: religion is a key component which often distinguishes an ethnic group from another and sows the seeds for a sense of ethnic superiority. For example, the general view of the Christian world is that Islam is a barbaric, backward religion (this view is consistently projected on this board). It is this thinking that creates a climate where people are led to believe that one ethnic group has a right or a duty to impose its own ethnicity on another (a la the US led invasion) i.e. there is an attempt to justify such invasions because "they're only Muslims and they believe in the 7 virgins nonsense etc". This is classic perceived ethnic superiority fuelled by religion and concentrating on the perceived negative attributes of a religion and its followers.

In sum, the evidence suggests that organised religion plays a role in fuelling organised violence (which in effect is what a war really is). The extent of this role is open to debate. In my opinion, religion does not cause war but it is a key propaganda tool for governments to garner support for organised violence.

It's culture in my view, religion being a part of any particular culture. What I don't get is the huge focus on religion. Religion does not define a culture, it is part of it and changes with it. Christianity is not the same as christianity of the past. It does change. Your society is not the same society it was a 100 years ago. The book(bible) doesn't change but the amount people adhere to it does, and the interpretation changes. So, in order to eliminate those wars you'd have to eliminate culture. And this is not to even begin to address the possiblity that eliminating religion, would only give rise to belief in other things. Maybe not in a "god" or supernatural being. Maybe a cult of materialism, or cult of political animals, or cult of greens, or the cult of psychology, sociology. Etc.... Some truth and good comes from anything. Select your poison. Their are plenty of people worshipping things other than "god", by the way. Flesh, Materialism, money, power, control, safety, drugs. A god is unnecessary for these things and they will be worshipped to the detriment of humans regardless of eliminating relgion.

Religion may be used as a tool by men. That is not the problem, the problem is that men(or women) are prone to want. And when a man wants something he uses what he can to get it. It's not the other way around.

What do you worship?

Example it is irrational for Meat and ChainGang to bash religion even though they don't believe in it. Why? because you don't convince people by bashing them. You create hostility and anger. That is all. So in the end their efforts are for division, not unity like professed.

I'm still trying to figure out what they are trying to accomplish. It certainly isn't to help the other posters. As everything said was already known to I'd gander everybody already.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 219

RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette - 1/14/2007 5:04:42 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Select your poison. Their are plenty of people worshipping things other than "god", by the way. Flesh, Materialism, money, power, control, safety, drugs. A god is unnecessary for these things and they will be worshipped to the detriment of humans regardless of eliminating relgion.

Religion may be used as a tool by men. That is not the problem, the problem is that men(or women) are prone to want. And when a man wants something he uses what he can to get it. It's not the other way around.

What do you worship?

Example it is irrational for Meat and ChainGang to bash religion even though they don't believe in it. Why? because you don't convince people by bashing them. You create hostility and anger. That is all. So in the end their efforts are for division, not unity like professed.

I'm still trying to figure out what they are trying to accomplish. It certainly isn't to help the other posters. As everything said was already known to I'd gander everybody already.

Absolutely the purpose of this thread is to create division and foster hatred. The OP tries to be alturistic to say without religion there will be no more war but then ignores the motives for war. i repeat:
In the natural world, the animals "war" with each other daily over territory and mating rights and i think everyone here would agree that animals have no religion. They still fight each other. Entire prides of lions will fight off another pride for territory. Hyenas kill lions for the right to the lion's food. There is no religion involved, no deity invoked.
Getting rid of religion, will not end war. Period.

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 220

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