RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette

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seeksfemslave -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 12:12:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL Zensee Seeks – we do experience Electro Magnetism directly, it is called sight. Your arguments are based on flawed understanding of phenomena and the science which is used to describe them. I was trying to be... err... metaphorical and I think you should quote the two relevent paragraphs. I do not have any personal revelations but I adopt what I believe to be an accurate scientific approach to the problem of the existence of a Deity. In other words there exist limits to the scientific method but the method can be used to make inferences.from the intractable problems that Nature presents to us. A blind man would not experience EM Radiation and religious people would say a "blind" man will not experience God either. Now, you may say a blind man WOULD experience EMR if he got sunburned !!

Rule -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 5:21:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee So Rule, what you seem to be saying is, the reason we can't see evidence of The Devine here is because he's in the universe next door playing this one with some kind of trans-dimensional remote. Any universe - I know of two only - is part of the Divine, but the Divine is not in them. The Divine "exists" "outside" universes. It is a requirement of cosmology. Anything that is subject to physics - hence inside a universe - cannot be the Divine. quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee And this differs from "he's everywhere but you can't see him" in exactly what substantive way? It does not, for that is an accurate statement. Any point within our universe borders immediately on the "outside" of our universe. Thus everything from whales to the hairs in our nose to the smallest particle to the smallest bit of empty space is in direct "contact" with the Divine.

seeksfemslave -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 10:24:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL Zensee Seeks – we do experience Electro Magnetism directly, it is called sight. Your arguments are based on flawed understanding of phenomena and the science which is used to describe them. quote: ORIGINAL selfsatisfied_seeks Just realised the statement is in fact an even more powerful metaphor since just as we can only experience directly a minisicule part of the total Electro Magnetic spectrum so I believe science can only process a part of the the sum of all information that may exist.. I am chuffed with that !!

SirDiscipliner69 -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 10:40:53 AM)
I believe bad publicity is better tha no publicity at all. It is all done with smoke and mirrors. Everyone believes in something...even not believing... Ross

SirDiscipliner69 -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 10:47:05 AM)
A Sign In The Hospital Emergency Ward: Interns Think of God. Residents pray to God. Doctors believe they're God. Nurses ARE God! Ross

Zsuzsanna -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/11/2007 6:59:41 PM)
I think there is probably a God. But I find Him... questionable.

mastermargarita -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 3:59:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra They are the exception to the norm, which is fine, I argue for neither cause. But I do deal with the dying and the dead daily in my line of work, and it is rare that I encounter an atheist. On their deathbeds people bargain, plea, beg, confess, and than pray. I, too, work on a daily basis with the dead. Being a caretaker of the dead, for over 14 years, I have been in homes of both those who believe and don't. Those that don't believe, their grief is 100 times greater, in that their knowledge of the deceased is that they are gone forever. Those that believe are more accepting of the passing, as a natural doorway, so to speak, into a much larger realm. One in which we can not see, analyze, scrutinize, put under a microscope, but one that is born and nurtured by faith. By the same token, we can not see, taste, or feel the air we breathe, that keeps us alive. Just something to think about....... Take Care.

meatcleaver -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 4:22:14 AM)
That is not true or at least I doubt it is anything to do with belief but more to do with the person and culture. It always amazes me that the US is such a religious place yet when you see pictures on the TV at least of people grieving, they are inconsolable. Look at how many memorial services people have in the US, they seem to find it impossible to let go. My experience of atheists is they have a more stoic acceptence of death. In fact my aunty said when my uncle was dying of an heart attack joked, 'Where is god when you need him?' Most of my family don't believe and none care to have a religious service when they die. My uncle was buried in a psychedelic coffin he made and painted himself. He was adament we should have a party and not mourn and we did. Atheist funerals are the most enjoyable ceremonies I have ever been to. They just aren't morbid like religious ceremonies.

meatcleaver -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 5:30:28 AM)
If all god is, is an emotional crotch, then people ought to get some backbone and take some fresh air. EDIT. I guess that should be crutch but I suppose a smelly crotch is more apt.

LadyEllen -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 5:54:32 AM)
To quote a certain member's sig line, and not directed at any side or any person in particular; Arguing with a stubborn person is like mud-wrestling with a pig. After awhile, you realize that the pig likes it. Whilst these debates provide an interesting means of hearing others' views - is anyone going to change their own views as a result, or is it rather that we all love the mud too much? E

meatcleaver -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 6:08:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Whilst these debates provide an interesting means of hearing others' views - is anyone going to change their own views as a result, or is it rather that we all love the mud too much? Probably not, it just worries me more and more that people can base beliefs on something as flimsey as wishful thinking rather than evidence. I don't base my atheism on evidence that there is no god but in 50 years I've never come across a shred of objective evidence to suggest there might be a god.

LadyEllen -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 6:33:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Whilst these debates provide an interesting means of hearing others' views - is anyone going to change their own views as a result, or is it rather that we all love the mud too much? Probably not, it just worries me more and more that people can base beliefs on something as flimsey as wishful thinking rather than evidence. I don't base my atheism on evidence that there is no god but in 50 years I've never come across a shred of objective evidence to suggest there might be a god. In many cases, I agree with you MC; the radical/literal/fanatic arms of many religions get a lot of publicity and seem to be growing. The world is an uncertain place, and the certainty that blind faith in some patently absurd and redundant mythology (or in the case of the OT, historicised mythology), finds currency globally. But I think youre wrong to dismiss all religion on the basis of a perceived absence of evidence for its efficacy. The evidence is anecdotal of course. It cant be identified and measured objectively. Yet millions of people worldwide perceive its effect on them and their lives as something positive, whether its objectively, rationally true or not. Of course, its not necessary to believe in God or any form of the divine, for people to be good to one another. But if that belief helps them in doing that, then what's the issue exactly? All of us at some time appeal to some sort of role model to fashion and form ourselves and our behaviour, and God should he exist, I am sure is disinterested in whether that role model is a living, deceased or fictional human, because God, if he exists, has had a part in producing that human. And if God doesnt exist, then it doesnt matter particularly, as people will still find their role models and whether they are fictional deities or not is beside the point as the motivation and effect is the same whatever. For me, God exists as I'm sure I've mentioned before. Not because of blind faith, but on the basis of my own enquiries and experiences. And it doesnt matter, really, whether you choose a religion off the shelf, make one up for yourself or have no religion at all. The divine is all around us, in us and of us, just as it is all around, in and of everything. You dont need religion for that, nor do you need to name it or characterise it, if that were possible, as God. You dont need faith or belief either. I went into my enquiries with a cynical, analytical attitude, to try to understand it all and thereby tear down what I see as a cancer in our society; what I found is much along your line of thinking, regarding what passes as religion and God in our culture, and yet by diligent enquiry and applied effort I found that there is knowledge there - real knowledge which has stood and will continue to stand the test of time, once one throws out the faith and belief aspects surrounding much of it, which in any case derive from particular times and places and are therefore trapped in them and useless and ridiculous to us, here and now. E

aviinterra -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 6:56:28 AM)
to mastermargarita: Thank you for responding. I do not have as much experience as you, and so I welcome your observations. to meatcleaver: Every family has a different way of dealing with the loss of a loved one. Loosing a loved one is one of the most stressful and painful times in anyone's life, and so you can not with a good heart say that people should just stop crying and let go. I find that actually quite cold. The U.S. actually is not so inconsolable as you would think- in Europe funerals are much more formal, mourning and remembrance of the one lost is paramount to a degree that the U.S. rarely sees. Those that do not take the time to grieve often end up worse off than those who face it and open up to their emotions. And there are very few examples of anyone being stoic when faced with death. quote: Probably not, it just worries me more and more that people can base beliefs on something as flimsey as wishful thinking rather than evidence. I don't base my atheism on evidence that there is no god but in 50 years I've never come across a shred of objective evidence to suggest there might be a god. But why does this worry you? I do not worry about someone sharing the same views as mine- they have a free choice to believe as they wish, even if it is in pink unicorns. You are pushing your view of there being no God just as hard as any religion pushes theirs. For someone so secure in their atheism, you take a lot of interest in God, the Divine, faith and religion- often such interest can be seen as a sign of insecurity. Perhaps in a way, your search for objective evidence that there is a God has become your religion. Please, this is in no way meant to offend anyone, it is just my observation and opinion.

Lorelei115 -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:05:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Atheist funerals are the most enjoyable ceremonies I have ever been to. They just aren't morbid like religious ceremonies. I've always preferred Irish wakes, myself. A serious question though, why would an atheist need a funeral? Why not just dump the body somewhere? After all, the former occupant is beyond caring and there is no need for the "emotional crutch" (Or crotch lol) of a ceremony to say goodbye.

farglebargle -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:08:21 AM)
"A serious question though, why would an atheist need a funeral? " Funerals aren't for the dead, they're for the survivors.

Lorelei115 -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:09:31 AM)
I was referring to the survivors.

barelyifatall -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:18:04 AM)
The idea of God isn't necessary for a burial, which serves to give a sense of closure to the family/friends of the departed. The family isn't necessarily sending the deceased off to God (and surely some of them still regard it in that way), but observing the close of a chaper in their lives. Atheists often participate in and have ceremonies - weddings, welcoming/formal introduction of newborns in place of christenings, etc. - as a means for celebration or commemoration of important events. There is a different approach, of course, in that the events are wholly humanistic as opposed to theistic. This reminds me of Robert Fulghum's book From Beginning to End: The Rituals of Our Lives.

meatcleaver -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:23:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra But why does this worry you? I do not worry about someone sharing the same views as mine- they have a free choice to believe as they wish, even if it is in pink unicorns. You are pushing your view of there being no God just as hard as any religion pushes theirs. For someone so secure in their atheism, you take a lot of interest in God, the Divine, faith and religion- often such interest can be seen as a sign of insecurity. Perhaps in a way, your search for objective evidence that there is a God has become your religion. Please, this is in no way meant to offend anyone, it is just my observation and opinion. To believe in something for which there is no evidence is a sign of not thinking and to quote Seneca 'Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

kinkiminx -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:25:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorelei115 A serious question though, why would an atheist need a funeral? Why not just dump the body somewhere? After all, the former occupant is beyond caring and there is no need for the "emotional crutch" (Or crotch lol) of a ceremony to say goodbye. To remember a person and their life - The former occupant might not care but the people around them certainly would -regardless of the person being dead, the body still represents that person to their friends and family because its the only part of them they have physically left -I can't imagine most families dumping the body of a loved one somewhere, regardless of religion! lol. I think for most people wanting to "say goodbye" doesn't have as much to do with religion as it does with emotional attachment.

meatcleaver -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 7:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kinkiminx quote: ORIGINAL: Lorelei115 A serious question though, why would an atheist need a funeral? Why not just dump the body somewhere? After all, the former occupant is beyond caring and there is no need for the "emotional crutch" (Or crotch lol) of a ceremony to say goodbye. To remember a person and their life - The former occupant might not care but the people around them certainly would -regardless of the person being dead, the body still represents that person to their friends and family because its the only part of them they have physically left -I can't imagine most families dumping the body of a loved one somewhere, regardless of religion! lol. I think for most people wanting to "say goodbye" doesn't have as much to do with religion as it does with emotional attachment. Precisely. Life is irrelevent to the dead but the life of the dead lives on in the imagination of family and friends.

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