RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 10:06:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
What do you propose we do to replace that food supply so many depend on?


Let them eat cake. [;)] 




subfever -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 10:17:41 PM)

quote:

i thought it was a 30% interest of roughly 115billion barrels of oil over 30 years


From what I understand, one of the recent offers on the table is for 20% of the oil profits over a 30-year period... after we've been compensated for building the infrastructure.

I also understand that 20% is about twice the typical payment for similiar arrangements.

Too bad the US deficit can't first be reduced by the exact war expenses before Big Oil gets their profits.

I guess the American people will just have to foot the bill for that.




subfever -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 10:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

There's an easy answer here.  It's going to fall onto the shoulders of Israel.  Why do you think they have nuclear weapons?  Where do you suppose they got that technology? 

I agree with what's been said about oil.  If we were making use of renewable fuel sources (imagine turning Corn into gasoline) to the extent we could, by taking every dime we wasted in the Iraq war and putting it into that research, Iran would be no closer to possessing a WMD than we are today at possessing a fusion cell

Stephan



Next imagine the worldwide inflation of food costs because of the rerouting of that Corn to fuel. The Corn angle has been looked at short sightedly by so many. The idea that that corn is currently used to feed people instead of engines tends to be forgotten. What do you propose we do to replace that food supply so many depend on?

Edited so I don't look like I'm talking out of my hat

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/op_ed/hc-peters0109.artjan09,0,2098585.story?coll=hc-headlines-oped



Not to mention that an enormous amount of energy must be expended to convert corn into ethanol. I recall reading somewhere that ethanol produces only 10% more energy than the energy that is expended to produce it.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 10:50:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia


Sinergy, there are a ton of articles and books that have been written about Iran.
Briefly, Iran is supporting the terrorists in Iraq, we have known this for years.
 

 
Before Bush, et al. brought terror and warfare to Iraq, I doubt this was the case.

Once Humpty Dumpty falls (or is overthrown by the US Military) off the wall, he cannot be put
back together again.

Or, to use another analogy, once you open a can of worms, the only way to recan it is with a larger can.

Bush's approach is the Pottery Barn Rule; You break it, you own it.  My main objection is I dont think
he can afford it, and he is busily sticking everybody else in the US with the bill.

quote:



They are literally bringing most of the weapons used to fight the USA in across the borders, daily.
The main reason, the WORLD is going to have to deal with Iran soon, is because Iran is filled with radical Islamics
that plan on taking over the Middle East, Israel and will eventually want to step up to America.
They sort of hate Americans.
I can see where Iran is the problem, why the hell are we in Iraq?
 


Iran is only a problem if they have a weapon they can use to inflict on other people.

A lot of countries are developing WMDs.  A lot of countries (like the US) have WMDs.  We deal with it the way we deal with everybody else who has WMDs; we negotiate and work out an equitable deal where everybody gets something from the deal.

They also have oil to use as a weapon.

As I stated, if we dont need their product, they can fall off the earth and rot.

Sinergy 


First off if you ask any expert on terrorism they will tell you that Iran is the world's largest supporter of terrorism. And they've been doing it for decades. It isn't something new.

Second, Iran is developing nuclear weapons for offensive purposes. They have made no secret of their intention to "wipe Israel off the map."

We cannot allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons. It would change the entire political picture of the region, bring the future of the region in doubt, seriously mess with international oil markets, and create stronger tentions not just with Israel, but with Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.

It will start a countdown to World War 3.




michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 11:22:51 PM)

in the immortal words of Susan Powder: "STOP THE MADNESS!!!"

LOL

[:D]




juliaoceania -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 11:22:53 PM)

quote:

First off if you ask any expert on terrorism they will tell you that Iran is the world's largest supporter of terrorism. And they've been doing it for decades. It isn't something new.



Actually the USA is the world's largest supporter of terrorism.

quote:

Second, Iran is developing nuclear weapons for offensive purposes. They have made no secret of their intention to "wipe Israel off the map."


Officially, that is an issue for Israel and the UN, who died and made us the policemen of the world?

quote:

We cannot allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons. It would change the entire political picture of the region, bring the future of the region in doubt, seriously mess with international oil markets, and create stronger tentions not just with Israel, but with Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.


You mean the people of Iran should not be allowed to do what they want with their oil, and if they can defend themselves it seriously jeopardizes our chances of manipulating them to get their oil.





ElectraGlide -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/11/2007 11:23:34 PM)

Iran is going to help us, the goofballs will probally nuke themselves by trying to make a nuclear weapon and have it backfire on themselves. Now to be serious I like the idea of the War on Terror it is just a shame the burden rest on a few countries to get it done. There are many countries that need to be sweeped of terroist but many need to get involved instead of a few to do it. Screw that United Nations Saddam Hussain was a member.




meatcleaver -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 12:32:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide

Iran is going to help us, the goofballs will probally nuke themselves by trying to make a nuclear weapon and have it backfire on themselves. Now to be serious I like the idea of the War on Terror it is just a shame the burden rest on a few countries to get it done. There are many countries that need to be sweeped of terroist but many need to get involved instead of a few to do it. Screw that United Nations Saddam Hussain was a member.


Many countries didn't take part such as France because they said you'll end up with a worse situation than you started with. The idea that you can fight a conventional war against terrorism is nonsense and anyway, Iraq wasn't a source of terrorism, it was a nasty regime that was already being contained.

As for Iran, I'm with Archer of this. There is enough discontent in Iran already, the students are protesting, they want the freedom they see in western countries and most of the population is too young to remember the Shah's regime and the revolution. When you get Iranians speaking on radio saying their President is shaming them (over the holocaust conference) you know there are problems. Their economy is shit and isn't producing. America should play the long game (like they should have done in Iraq) and if they do they will get everyone else on board too.




Stephann -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 6:56:58 AM)

My apologies for not making a more complete answer,  I didn't really wish to hijack this thread to discuss alternative fuel sources.  At a price tag of over a billion dollars a day, My point was the money used in the Iraq war could have gone to any number of other projects.  Budget costs alone top $357 billion.  Interest on that debt will cost over $400 billion (the amount might increase, considering our lack of firm plan to actually balance the budget.)  A joint study done by two researchers, one from Harvard the other from Colombia, suggests that the total cost could exceed $1.2 trillion dollars; without considering increase in troop levels in the first place.  The price of this war is literally, per year higher than if the United States Government had simply purchased all of the oil the country uses, per year.  I have a very difficult time believing that over a trillion dollars spent on research would not have yielded a more efficiant, less expensive solution than our current standard. 

And we still haven't 'won.'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Energy.gov Ethanol can be produced from a variety of feedstocks such as sugar cane, bagasse, miscanthus, sugar beet, sorghum, grain sorghum, switchgrass, barley, hemp, kenaf, potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava, sunflower, fruit, molasses, whey or skim milk, corn, stover, grain, wheat, wood, paper, straw, cotton, other biomass, as well as many types of cellulose waste. As of 2006, production is primarily from sugarcane, maize (corn) and sugar beets -


It would seem to me that if energy could be derived from crops and sufficiant investment in supporting infrastructure was applied (1.2 trillion dollars??) there's no question that these crops would become valuable enough to take advantage of. 

Recent US Department of Energy studies indicated that the net energy gain of corn ethanol fuel to be 1.34, though using a higher sugar content crop, such as sugar beats, the efficiancy rises even more.  On the other hand, it is renewable, burns clean, and with adequate infrastructure in place could easily be cost competitive.

Further studies suggest the possibility of combining ethanol and hydrogen to create an ethanol reactor.  More research (and money) is needed, and would obselete existing automotive technologies.

Remember, that in the United States nearly half of every dollar spent on gasoline goes into taxes.  The war on Iraq is paid for, by taxes.  The US, and indeed the rest of the world, cannot afford to continue funding wars to secure such a finite resource.

Stephan




missturbation -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:14:54 AM)

What I am struggling with is why did we pussy foot in Iraq when clearly the biggest problem is in Iran? 
Oil per chance?
 
IF we had waited, and gotten more support, we could have tons of allies supporting a confrontation with Iran
Possibly.
 
why the hell is the USA really the only country having to take on the Middle East?
Because maybe other countries realise that all Bush wanted was the oil. Britian by the sounds of things will not be standing by the USA and i'm glad. Bush made his own hole, now he can crawl out of it on his own.
 




missturbation -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:17:10 AM)

First we really didnt want allies.

You didnt?
Hmm not as i understand it.
Britian were asked to be your allies and we have been.




farglebargle -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:18:08 AM)

quote:


Not to mention that an enormous amount of energy must be expended to convert corn into ethanol.


Hemp oil works just as well for bio-diesel, you just press the seed, and you get as a result, also a nutritious paste for feed, waffles, etc...







farglebargle -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:29:08 AM)

quote:

First off if you ask any expert on terrorism they will tell you that Iran is the world's largest supporter of terrorism. And they've been doing it for decades. It isn't something new.


No you got that wrong. You're thinking of IRAQ. They were way more dangerous than Iran, that's why we attacked them.

And look at all the WMD and Terrorists we found in Iraq, too. Must be... Well, Zero. Ok, we made a lot of people angry, and if you call anyone who takes a potshot at a marine a terrorist, then there *are* terrorists. But not under Hussain. He knew how to keep the place under control. Sure it took gassing a village or two. But hey, if we didn't want him to do it, maybe we shouldn't have sold him the gas don't you think?

At the base though, that's the problem, logically, in appealing to experts. Just cause they're EXPERTS doesn't make them right, so BEING EXPERTS isn't good enough. We need to see the evidence, ourselves.

quote:


Second, Iran is developing nuclear weapons for offensive purposes. They have made no secret of their intention to "wipe Israel off the map."


Do you mean the Government of the State of Israel, or the State of Israel?

Because I'll show you a lot of Jews who think the GOVERNMENT of Israel is 60 % of the problem, and without redrafting it, you'll never have Freedom, Liberty, and Equality. It's unclear from your quote ( or paraphrase ) what has been intended.


quote:


We cannot allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons.


Well, I don't know where's it's our JOB to allow or disallow a sovereign nation to do anything within it's borders. How would you feel if the Chinese Communists said we needed to stop development of the ABM system, or our Nuke program?

Not so good, eh?

Issues of National Sovereignty aside, I have not seen any credible evidence that the program underway is anything but civilian. If you have evidence, please present it. Remember, EXPERT OPINION in, and of itself, is not Evidence.





MzMia -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 2:59:10 PM)

Having serious system problems here, posted 4 threads instead of one.
Well, I still wonder if we will end up fighting Iran alone.




MzMia -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 3:00:49 PM)

 I think we want and need allies, are you kidding?




MzMia -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 3:02:20 PM)

 Stephann, I still refuse to believe all this is about oil.




MzMia -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 3:03:37 PM)

 Cyberdude, I also see Iran as a bigger threat than Iraq.
We are basically already fighting Iran in Iraq at this point, anyway.




Dtesmoac -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 6:24:01 PM)

If you want to unite a nation get an outside power to threaten it. If you want to cause disent from within bombard it with alternative views, show its people alternative way's of living and wait from them to set off the powder keg from within.  The USA is uniting moderates and fanatics by appearing to be a greater threat than the nutters running other countries. Turn to your best weapons for cultural change, Coke, Hollywood, the dollar and Happy Days ................. "all we are saying is give Fonzy a chance......"!  ......and do your killing in quiet, with precision, stealth and targetted at those causing suppresion, not with bloody great tanks, planes and thousands of troops that will make for good evening news broadcasts. Initially Afghanistan was the example people should have looked at, not Iraq.......now Afghanistan will be lost because of Iraq.




juliaoceania -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:16:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

 Stephann, I still refuse to believe all this is about oil.


What do you believe it is about exactly?




dcnovice -> RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? (1/12/2007 7:25:06 PM)

quote:

Actually the USA is the world's largest supporter of terrorism.


Really? How are we defining "terrorism"?




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