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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/12/2007 10:20:57 PM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Part of the Abramoff scandal included him ripping off Indians.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 61

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/12/2007 11:44:40 PM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

That comes much closer to it, imho. Do you see the U.S. as doing this? I know there have been civilian casualties in Iraq, but I'm not sure they were calculated to produce terror. Then again, I know I'm naive.

The term for the invasion of Iraq (detailed in depth in the book "Cobra II") was "Shock and Awe." Sounds like the people in charge of setting it up wanted to instill terror and fear in the hearts of those invaded.

Vietnam was bombed into a lifeless moonscape. I imagine the people who lived there felt some measure of terror.

Iran and North Korea have been termed the "Axis of Evil" in the media, and threatened with invasion if they dont tow the line.

We invaded Panama to install a government that was unwilling to allow China to retrofit the Panama Canal to allow their cargo ships to bypass the US rail system.

I can probably come up with more examples of US sponsored terrorism, but it is late and I just got home from dancing.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 62

RE: You, sir, have become the president who cried wolf. - 1/12/2007 11:46:33 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Who would put up with that kind of shit from a FOUR YEAR OLD, much less a President?

I would venture the opinion that they all live in Dumbfuckistan.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 63

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/12/2007 11:55:59 PM

Amaros

Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am finally coming to the point that I can see why the US, needs to get involved in the Middle East. The situation in all of the Middle East is certainly coming to a head.
What I am struggling with is why did we pussy foot in Iraq when clearly the biggest problem is in Iran? Also, I don’t like the reasons we were told we needed to RUSH into Iraq. Why didn’t we sit back and wait, deal with Afghanistan and try to get more support before we dealt with Iran? Why was it necessary to tell lies to get us to go to Iraq? I just don’t like the way we have gone about this, especially since the tenuous situations in the Middle East will ultimately affect the entire world, why the hell is the USA really the only country having to take on the Middle East? IF we had waited, and gotten more support, we could have tons of allies supporting a confrontation with Iran.

Okay where is my farglebargle and lil Julia?

So many stupid mistakes were made it's hardly worth recounting - it's all about making the best of a bad situation now without getting too many more people and their children killed - can we make this a psychological win at this point?

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 64

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/12/2007 11:58:40 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Don779,

julia is an academician. She would not make a comment such as this without having researched the sources.

The predecessors of my children are Mohawk, so they have a different set of issues.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don779

Ma'am; Once again you jump to a conclusion befor finding out the facts. The daily reports are not only military field officers but from civil service managers. ( or what we would now call them )..as a aside..field grade officers were not looking at history in writing daily reports..but were more of a daily log of events as they did happen..( same as is done today)..

Since you asked for facts, perhaps the following reference works can provide you with the information.

Indians in the Americas: The Untold Story By William Marder

The Red Record: The Oldest Native North American History by David McCutcheon

The Real Revolution: The Global Story of American Independence - by Marc Aronson

The Historical Atlas of the American Revolution -by Ian Barnes, Charles Royster

----------------------------------------

As a side note, if you need more sources let me know. Do a google search on General Amherst if you
are curious.

On another side note, "Terrorism" by definition is a tactic used to create terror and fear in the hearts of
people in a society. It is aimed at the ones who are not killed, not at those who die.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Don779)

Post #: 65

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 2:03:10 AM

Don779

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Joined: 7/19/2006
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Just to answer in my own defence and not to start yet another war of words ....Just because someone wrote something in a book...does not always make it the truth....one must look at whom the author is serving...is it research...or to advance a certain point of view..or just what is selling at that point in time..one of the biggest " miths" advanced about the years from 1856 to 1876 is the so called " smallpox blankets " ..it is a blatant twisting of what took place on one crossing of the west by one group of families ( made popular by a 1950's western movie and once again in the social unrest of the " indian " movement of the 1960's and early 1970's ) and I did not ask for any information , but I thank you for your efforts anyway.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 66

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 7:50:21 AM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

We invaded Panama to install a government that was unwilling to allow China to retrofit the Panama Canal to allow their cargo ships to bypass the US rail system.
Sinergy

       Yeah, I've heard this theory before. It's a possible interpretation of the events, but it relies on some pretty heavy assumptions. That the Chinese are even capable of such an engineering project is highly doubtful. At this point, they can't engineer a travel coffee mug well enough that the tip of a user's nose doesn't block the vent after the cup is half empty. Expanding the canal would be a nightmare job and expensive beyond belief. Look at the geology and the challenges of just keeping the present system operational. And the Canal would have to be shut down to make the attempt.

       Even if we accept the theory, our actions were acceptable, appropriate and in the National Interest. We built the fucking thing. It is a vital part of our economy. I'm waking up slowly, is it the Monroe Doctrine that says the Americas are our backyard?

     Easy access from the Atlantic to Pacific is a great thing to have, but without oil, we come to a dead stop.

     Alternative energy? FANTASTIC! I'm in. What have you got that works?.... Oh, I see. The oil must flow, I guess.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 67

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 7:51:49 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don779

Just to answer in my own defence and not to start yet another war of words ....Just because someone wrote something in a book...does not always make it the truth....one must look at whom the author is serving...is it research...or to advance a certain point of view..or just what is selling at that point in time..one of the biggest " miths" advanced about the years from 1856 to 1876 is the so called " smallpox blankets " ..it is a blatant twisting of what took place on one crossing of the west by one group of families ( made popular by a 1950's western movie and once again in the social unrest of the " indian " movement of the 1960's and early 1970's ) and I did not ask for any information , but I thank you for your efforts anyway.

What we are talking about here is well documented. I fail to see how some reports at a university written by many people daily is going to change the matter. Now if you source what you are talking about with some sort of hard weighty evidence other than vague reports, then I would be willing to look it up. Other than that, I can claim anything I like, such as the Holocaust never existed, or that this country was founded on the principals of Christianity.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Don779)

Post #: 68

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 7:57:59 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      Even if we accept the theory, our actions were acceptable, appropriate and in the National Interest. We built the fucking thing. It is a vital part of our economy. I'm waking up slowly, is it the Monroe Doctrine that says the Americas are our backyard?

    Easy access from the Atlantic to Pacific is a great thing to have, but without oil, we come to a dead stop.

    Alternative energy? FANTASTIC! I'm in. What have you got that works?.... Oh, I see. The oil must flow, I guess.

It was a similar nonsense argument of national interest that France and Britain used to occupy the Suez Canal and the US rejected this argument. It's amusing how what's good for oneself is not good for another.

Panama isn't US territory and so should be able to do what it damn well wants regardless of US interest. The same goes for Egypt and the Suez canal.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 69

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:00:14 AM

seeksfemslave

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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

You only have to listen to debates between academics to see how "other wordly" they can be !!

As for sources, they really are relevent only for facts, which are always in dispute anyway, so I say express your own opinions and to hell with it.

Look at the distortions on this site with regard to the events in Iraq, and no bugger listens to us !!!

Just to add, in Panama the US built the canal and in Iran, where Mossedeq was deposed because he nationalised the oil industry, built by not sure who but not the Iranians, dont you think those who make massive financial and technological investment should have some say.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/13/2007 8:05:04 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 70

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:28:17 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

You only have to listen to debates between academics to see how "other wordly" they can be !!

As for sources, they really are relevent only for facts, which are always in dispute anyway, so I say express your own opinions and to hell with it.

Look at the distortions on this site with regard to the events in Iraq, and no bugger listens to us !!!

Um, I can say black is white and white is black... it does not make it so. I asked for source material other than reading through 30 years of old reports in some vague univerity storeroom somewhere. I know you do not think that opinion and fact differ much, but they do. You are allowed to your own opinions, but you are not allowed to your own facts.

Edited to add, the person I was responding to said that I had my facts wrong, he should present something to support that assertion.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/13/2007 8:29:31 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 71

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:29:22 AM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I did a search for "Princes of Darkness", found it and read
a brief synopisis.
LOL I have known about the Saudi's for years, please, I
have also seen Fahrenheit 911.
I have said I have always been opposed to this invasion,
my point IS, we are THERE and what are we going to do now?
We are almost beyond pointing fingers at this point, we have
already opened up the can of whoop ass.

No argument there.

_____________________________

Small deeds will always mean more than large intentions.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 72

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:31:18 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

one must look at whom the author is serving

I disagree. That is logically irrelevant.

If there is a fact alleged by anyone, their motivation does not matter.

All that matters is: Is the fact TRUE, or is the allegation FALSE.

If Charles Manson tells you CLOUDS FLOAT IN THE SKY, you would discount it because he's a raving looney?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Don779)

Post #: 73

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:33:30 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

What have you got that works?....

Hemp Oil. It's a drop in replacement for Diesel #2, and by next fall, we could grow and process...

How much? How much Canola Oil is grown each year?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 74

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:37:39 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

dont you think those who make massive financial and technological investment should have some say.

As long as Artificial Legal Entities keep first and foremost that they are The People's Bitch.

The ONLY reason The People grant privileges to ALEs is that The People derive a benefit from the existence of ALEs.

So, the MOMENT an ALE acts in any way counter to the best interests of The People, they forfeit their right to exist, assets should be liquidated, and the ALE put to death.

That way we wouldn't find benzene in Coca Cola cans, would we? First strike, and you're out of business. That would keep other ALEs on their toes.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 75

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:44:31 AM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

What have you got that works?....

Hemp Oil. It's a drop in replacement for Diesel #2, and by next fall, we could grow and process...

How much? How much Canola Oil is grown each year?

And whatever would we do with the tightly packed and slightly sticky vegetation around those seeds...?

I'm actually a fan of this one, and bio-fuels in general but the cropland required is enormous. Even if the silver lining of global warming (lots of newly arable land) is brought into play, it's going to cut into our food supply. Say to the tune of Africa starves.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 76

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 8:57:27 AM

mnottertail

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I started to post once about ku, fu, sui, chi, ka--- and how we lacked elements in this war.

It is eastern philosophy, and it is endemic to the middle-EAST as well. The wars have been fought along this line since the beginning of time, and we, of the short attention span are making inimcal forays in the area idiotically thinking we can put the one minute manager philosophy to good use there.

Remembering that Iran, Iraq, Kuwait and some of Syria and Afghanistan was once part of the Persian empire, preceeding us by some 5k years or better, and the fact that our attention span is cut into 4 year chunks at the maximum, and quite often only exists in today, based on the backdrop of historical conversations herein, I do not think that Iran is of a fabric that we should try to silk-screen a euphamistic jingle on.

World domination is not something we are capable of, we muck it up. We haven't the heart, nor the stamina to see it thru.

There is no business that is within our realm of infantile politic that would serve us in considering intercourse with that nation in any combatant sort of way. Our cup is overflowing in venom now, and we haven't the werewithal to stop the source of it up.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 77

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 9:52:21 AM

WyrdRich

Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

There is no business that is within our realm of infantile politic that would serve us in considering intercourse with that nation in any combatant sort of way. Our cup is overflowing in venom now, and we haven't the werewithal to stop the source of it up.

Ron

You always make it seem so simple and clear, Ron. We cannot, and yet, we can't not.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 78

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 10:24:56 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL Ms JO
I know you do not think that opinion and fact differ much, but they do. You are allowed to your own opinions, but you are not allowed to your own facts.

Ms JO an incontravertable fact in the socio political arena is very very rare thing indeed. I am sure you are aware that many records are written with at least a half an eye to posterity or with some ulterior motive.

A perfect example of this is the Warren report on the JFK assassination.
Another which is current is what was meant when the presence of WMD's was used to justifiy the invasion of Iraq.

Reports back from the Viet Nam War were doctored , or at least such information as was released to the public was.. That is one reason why as I recall the TET offensive launched by the Vietnamese came as such a shock to the American public at large who had been spoonfed "facts" about the progress of the War.

Almost any large government department will say and record almost anything when confronted with a little difficulty of whatever kind. etc etc etc.

Why even Evolutionary Biologist refuse to face facts about the underlying weakness of their lamentable discipline and churn out reams of mind bending distortions all to be picked up as facts by the unsuspecting.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 79

RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/13/2007 10:34:32 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL Ms JO
I know you do not think that opinion and fact differ much, but they do. You are allowed to your own opinions, but you are not allowed to your own facts.

Ms JO an incontravertable fact in the socio political arena is very very rare thing indeed. I am sure you are aware that many records are written with at least a half an eye to posterity or with some ulterior motive.

That misses the point.

juliaoceania made a comment. The poster claimed it was incorrect without citing a source.

I provided source materials. The poster claimed they were all incorrect without citing a source.

The poster was asked to provide some sort of reference work to prove the claim that it was incorrect.

Now you state that reference works are incorrect without citing a source yourself.

Which is not to say that your comments about bias are incorrect, but to discard anything anybody has ever
reported on or studied because they have some bias seems rather obtuse.

What you both seem to be stating is that anybody who disagrees with you is incorrect.

Sinergy

p.s. The same can be said of your comments about Evolutionary Biologists.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 80

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