When is it not about communication

When is it not about communication (Full Version)

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toservez -> When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:17:27 PM)
I just read another thread on a submissive person wanting/needing there dominant to do something which is not really the issue at all here. Most of the responses are the usual need to communicate this with your dominant. Now I for one do not believe in the utopia of all roles in these relationships knowing each other so well to anticipate all needs and desires and I am also a firm believer of open communication and hell, I use the must communicate with the other person a lot when I write. My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. Now personally I have little trouble expressing an opinion or asking for sex or to watch a certain TV program for example but could never ask to do a scene and certainly something in a scene or wanting any other physical or mental manifestation of the power exchange in my relationship. This destroys the dynamic for me too much. It is never the scene or doing this or that for him that makes me be his slave, it is that he orders or makes me do those things. Not perfect, but just being honest. I guess my question is when is the line crossed in your experience when it is not so much about communication of needs and desires but actually the dominant needing to pay more attention in this area and not use the important “must communicate” statement as a catch all or cop out from due diligence and/or consistency with in the power exchange?

Sunshine119 -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:21:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. Hmmm...I do understand what you are saying here. I find begging and pleading works well.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:21:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez I guess my question is when is the line crossed in your experience when it is not so much about communication of needs and desires but actually the dominant needing to pay more attention in this area and not use the important “must communicate” statement as a catch all or cop out from due diligence and/or consistency with in the power exchange? On the other hand, when do your desires cross the line from being "control oriented" into not wanting to take active participation and responsibility for your choices? Communication isn't a cure-all. But without it, no other cure will have any effect. I don't tell my partners they need to communicate with me so I don't have to do the work- I do it because there's only so much work I CAN do and they have to take responsibility for making this relationship work just as much as I do. I understand the desire to be passive and obedient and robotic. But that doesn't work for me beyond the occasional scene or day of fun. I want people in my life who will work with me to make the sucky stuff less sucky and have more time for fun. If they refuse to communicate and suggest that I'm just giving a cop-out when it's really that they aren't getting their kink on- well they just aren't the person for me.

slavejali -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:25:24 PM)
I think I can relate to what your saying in that there are some areas of my psych that want to be controlled just by purely that, not because I've given ways to control me but simply because they are able to energetically link to me and control me without me having to say a thing or give any clues to how to do it. Is that kinda it?

mstrjx -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:34:09 PM)
I apologize in advance if this comes across as disjointed. A few things to say in different directions. I, too, wonder about the nature of others' relationships when it comes to communication. I realize for every individual there is a likelihood of things getting done differently. I'm dominant. And male. A dominant male, if you will. I find myself amazed that I'm generally better at communication than those submissive women I've been with. Some of this SHOULD be expected. If I'm doing my 'job', then I should be intuitive and instinctual in regards to her head and heart. But if something is awry, I would like to know. And when the activities and the dynamic are so intense and passionate (and did I say intense) the head and heart can go to some interesting places, many dark. I need to know if there is a reaction to that. When I get involved with someone, it seems I cover the nature of the dynamic in the 'getting to know you' phase. Like the OP, I don't wish to destroy the 'mystique' of the relationship by breaking the tone every hour/day to see what's wrong. If the sub/slave has a real difficult time being direct in communication, there are ways to be indirectly direct. There's writing time, hopefully daily, where issues can be aired without having a face-to-face confrontation. Honestly, in my experience, perhaps because I am quite good at paying attention to the emotions and the pitfalls and handling the communications appropriately, I haven't experienced many of the issues being discussed in threads here. As I've mentioned in other threads over the past few days my 'getting to know you' phase doesn't last as long as many, but there does seem to be some short-sighted things that we read here that I don't understand. I wonder if it's selfishness? Jeff

toservez -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 1:41:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavejali I think I can relate to what your saying in that there are some areas of my psych that want to be controlled just by purely that, not because I've given ways to control me but simply because they are able to energetically link to me and control me without me having to say a thing or give any clues to how to do it. Is that kinda it? Basically, there are just certain things within the relationship to me that need the consistency and leadership of my owner and not a consistent game of me having to express myself either then and there or when we are just talking in general about our relationship. So yes, certain things and when they are done or ordered I need in my life by my owner’s effort and initiation and not by me communicating it when I feel it has been too long or some other reason. Whether just on a message board or in real life relationships it seems to me it is quick and easy to just say communicate this or to think currently or in the past your submissive who became flustered because they would not communicate this with you and you had no idea. I understand that. I am talking when it seems to be a catch all response to all problems in a couple’s relationship. It seems it becomes always the first thing when a problem arises that it is the submissive fault because they did not communicate it. So maybe another way to put it, is when is it or is it ever the dominant's duty to make sure the basic needs of their relationship are being adhered to on their end without the catch all of their submissive always communicating it to them.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 4:55:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez So maybe another way to put it, is when is it or is it ever the dominant's duty to make sure the basic needs of their relationship are being adhered to on their end without the catch all of their submissive always communicating it to them. Hmm well I know we tend to give that answer to the doms when they bring up questions on the boards as well- so we're certainly not carving out subs only for this or suggesting they are always the ones to blame. Whether it's because doms have a harder time admitting their communication difficulties, or because they have a harder time coming to the boards for advice in general, or some other reason- fem subs tend to be the highest number of posters and thread starters. So they tend to get the most advice overall. I don't think we tell subs to communicate as a catch all solution, or as a way to constantly blame them. But, as I said before, withOUT communication, nothing else will mean much at all, and a heck of a lot of subs have really sucky communication habits.

KnightofMists -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:01:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. I am curious why you think "asking for something"... results in defeating th power structure.

losttreasure -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:29:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: toservez My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. I am curious why you think "asking for something"... results in defeating th power structure. I think there is a subtle feeling that to state what you want, even in the form of asking, is... aggressive. This can be counterproductive to some submissives who use that feeling of "smallness" and "passivity" as a tool to maintain mindset. It isn't that they don't intellectually understand that to ask, there is the possibility of denial and a reinforcement of the control structure, but emotionally, it can be a battle.

thetammyjo -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:37:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: toservez My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. I am curious why you think "asking for something"... results in defeating th power structure. I think there is a subtle feeling that to state what you want, even in the form of asking, is... aggressive. This can be counterproductive to some submissives who use that feeling of "smallness" and "passivity" as a tool to maintain mindset. It isn't that they don't intellectually understand that to ask, there is the possibility of denial and a reinforcement of the control structure, but emotionally, it can be a battle. I think that feeling is common, or at least it has been for most of these I've played with, trained, and owned. However, I try to explain it like this: If I ask a question I am ordering you to give me information. If you ask for something you are giving me information -- as long as you abide by my decision without whining or repeated asking, then you are respecting my authority. And to be honest, sometimes it is a sadistic thrill to have my slave ask for something and then say "NO".

classykindasassy -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:39:17 PM)
Sounds to me like you have a craving to be known and anticipated, rather than discuss everything you need. It's a real seductive feeling to have yourself read. Some people can connect like this, and some can't. And even in the best of relationships, for days and weeks the connection can go off the rails and it takes something to get it back on.

MaryT -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:51:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez I guess my question is when is the line crossed in your experience when it is not so much about communication of needs and desires but actually the dominant needing to pay more attention in this area and not use the important “must communicate” statement as a catch all or cop out from due diligence and/or consistency with in the power exchange? It is putting it on the Dom/me to be a mind reader if the submissive doesn't want to be upfront - and the reverse would certainly true too but is not as likely a scenario. In my mind it would kind of mess up the power structure if the Dom was in the position of trying to anticipate what the sub wants. I'm not sure whether or not that makes sense. I like talking about a relationship within that relationship, analyzing it, talking about how it's working, what's working, etc. I love meta-discussion in groups too <listening for the groans of the killjoys who prefer to stay on-topic [:D]>. That's true whether or not it's working really well, and it's true in all my close relationships, even with my adult children, etc. I'm putting some thought into the motivation behind my desire to do that in personal relationships and believe it is about needing reassurance and wanting the ability to deflect damage before it can occur. If I am partnered with someone who does not care for that type of discussion (which may be the entire male species, lol) and everything is going well, would my insistence on that discussion be a matter of communication or a matter of control? I would not hesitate to ask for sex or activity or the like ... there's no reason to be hesitant. He still gives the nod or the no, so it doesn't change the power structure. In that I think communicating is just opening up the possibility of getting something I want. Interesting topic, but I am a communication junkie anyway. [:)] MaryT Edited to show unmentionables to be over 18, and therefore mentionable.

losttreasure -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 5:52:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: classykindasassy Sounds to me like you have a craving to be known and anticipated, rather than discuss everything you need. It's a real seductive feeling to have yourself read. Some people can connect like this, and some can't. And even in the best of relationships, for days and weeks the connection can go off the rails and it takes something to get it back on. Yes, it is a seductive feeling... and one that I believe many submissives hope for when they become involved long-term with a dominant. And before the doms start moaning about unrealistic expectations, let me state that very often they themselves are the ones who perpetuate this idea. I cannot tell you the countless times that I've been told by a dom how I will become transparent to him... how he will get into my head and know me better than I know myself. Pity that as soon as they start spouting those myths, they no longer have that opportunity with me. [;)]

CreativeDominant -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 6:00:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: toservez My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. I am curious why you think "asking for something"... results in defeating th power structure. I think there is a subtle feeling that to state what you want, even in the form of asking, is... aggressive. This can be counterproductive to some submissives who use that feeling of "smallness" and "passivity" as a tool to maintain mindset. It isn't that they don't intellectually understand that to ask, there is the possibility of denial and a reinforcement of the control structure, but emotionally, it can be a battle. I can understand where some might view asking for something as "aggressive". Depending on the context of the entire situation, it could well be aggressive...the submissive is always asking for something else other than what the dominant gives to them, the submissive always asking for something even when she has been told no, etc....but in many cases, it is a way of giving information that the dominant stated at the outset of the relationship that he needed. Now, if the submissive has been penalized for giving out such information through her asking of questions...and she has ascertained within her own adult mind that she was not being aggressive and was doing as he stated he wanted...then there is a problem. Having gone through my own hassle with communication or the lack thereof, I find myself asking as KOM does...in what way does asking for something that is truly needed/desired/wanted/to give information...diminish the power structure? In my case, it could well have saved the relationship or it may not have. What bothered me was the not knowing and never having the chance to find out. This is why I stress communication. And like LA...I strongly feel that it takes two to make the power relationship work. And finally, like many dominants, I am NOT a mindreader. I am good at reading submissives, especially up close, but I still am ME...operating out of my mind, not theirs.

Hisamicia -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 6:31:11 PM)
Becoming more transparent to my Master NChaka is something I am currently working on, but it is definitely something I am doing, not something He is 'making' happen. The more transparent I become, the easier it is for Him to pick on subtle clues in my face and demeanor that tell Him what I need, often before I have the chance to voice it myself. Words (written or oral) are only one form of communication. My Master can't read my mind, but He can and does read 'me' very well. As always, this is solely my opinion and experience. All people/relationships work differently. ymmv NChaka's amicia I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

Amaros -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 6:33:50 PM)
If you have no needs or want's within the D/s dynamic, other than the need to be dominated, I don't see this as a problem - obviously, you take what you get - not everybody is like that however, and/or one may go through other stages before getting to that one. quote: I guess my question is when is the line crossed in your experience when it is not so much about communication of needs and desires but actually the dominant needing to pay more attention in this area and not use the important “must communicate” statement as a catch all or cop out from due diligence and/or consistency with in the power exchange? The line is different for everyone - however, your question here seems to imply some problem or miscommunication - is that you aren't getting what you need, and see being asked to communicate about that as a cop out, interfering with the dynamic for you? If that's the case, then it cut's both ways, as you say, we cannot read minds, most of us anyway, but humans are very good at nonverbal communication. Still, even non-verbal communication relies on certain fundamental assumptions that comes from a variety of sources, including culture and upbringing, temperment and personality - so even the best non-verbal communication in the world isn't going to help if you're not speaking the same language, or operating under the same assumptions. The only cure for that is... communication. I'm not quite sure how help you resolve this conundrum, you need to communicate something, and yet find the act of communicating it diminishes the experience for you - if I'm reading this correctly. Thing is, you're practically back to the old passive aggressive "you should know what I want" thing that women are famous for - I know what I want, I can really only try to read whether that's working for you or not under these conditions. Might take a lot of tries. [8D] I don't even know if you're talking about yourself or theoretically - but if the former, it sounds like the guy just can't read you - maybe it will come with time.

slavemaia -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 6:35:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez I just read another thread on a submissive person wanting/needing there dominant to do something which is not really the issue at all here. Most of the responses are the usual need to communicate this with your dominant. Now I for one do not believe in the utopia of all roles in these relationships knowing each other so well to anticipate all needs and desires and I am also a firm believer of open communication and hell, I use the must communicate with the other person a lot when I write. My thought is though is that for a submissive person like myself, too often the “just tell me what you are wanting or needing” on things self defeats the power structure and the mental state of living within that power structure. Now personally I have little trouble expressing an opinion or asking for sex or to watch a certain TV program for example but could never ask to do a scene and certainly something in a scene or wanting any other physical or mental manifestation of the power exchange in my relationship. This destroys the dynamic for me too much. It is never the scene or doing this or that for him that makes me be his slave, it is that he orders or makes me do those things. Not perfect, but just being honest. I guess my question is when is the line crossed in your experience when it is not so much about communication of needs and desires but actually the dominant needing to pay more attention in this area and not use the important “must communicate” statement as a catch all or cop out from due diligence and/or consistency with in the power exchange? The feeling i'm getting from your post is that it's okay to communicate, to discuss things and then let it go. But you want to feel like your Dom is as interested in what you share together as you are - perhaps? One of the things that used to drive me nuts in vanilla relationships was guys who could never take the lead and make a damn decision. In the name of "pleasing me", i always felt that what was really happening was they were sluffing off any responsibility for the more romantic and interesting things in our relationship. "Whatever you want, honey" used to make me cringe. The last thing i want in a Dominant is someone i feel is not interested or is constantly looking to sense what i want in order to know what to do ----- YUCK. Don't know if that's what you're talking about or not. But what i've found is, once i've discussed what i like in terms of kink or anything else, with Master, i have to let go of when, how, where and if i get it. That's submission to me, anyway. i understand not wanting to ask and how it could feel less submissive. So i don't ask, i simply present something as a possibility for His consideration, then i drop it. If it interests Him, it usually happens, in His time and His way. If it doesn't, i don't remind Him. People in general do not forget what really interests them. i mean, if i really want to do something, i don't have to be reminded repeatedly that i want to do it. So, when i don't get what i feel i want or need then i experience it as a lesson in submission.

losttreasure -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 7:01:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant ...like many dominants, I am NOT a mindreader. I am good at reading submissives, especially up close, but I still am ME...operating out of my mind, not theirs. I would be *scared* if you were a mind reader. [;)] As I said, it is easy enough to intellectually understand. Emotionally, it's not always easy to put into practice. Explaining just exactly why would take a novel length comment, but it essentially comes down to the differences in how men and women communicate.

ownedgirlie -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/15/2007 10:38:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure I cannot tell you the countless times that I've been told by a dom how I will become transparent to him... how he will get into my head and know me better than I know myself. This can happen, however, as it has with me. I very rarely (and I mean very very rarely) ask for something. He already knows. He still decides whether or not to provide, but I am enormously transparent to him. But this took a lot of effort on both our parts.

Noah -> RE: When is it not about communication (1/16/2007 1:17:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie This can happen, however, as it has with me. I very rarely (and I mean very very rarely) ask for something. He already knows. He still decides whether or not to provide, but I am enormously transparent to him. But this took a lot of effort on both our parts. Well said. I walk into the kitchen wanting an excellent meal. I can want and want and want and wonder why the kitchen doesn't provide what I want effortlessly. Or, I can get out my knives and pots and pans and do the work. Take the time to learn how the ingredients speak to one another; learn how to build an edge on a knife and a different sort of edge on a cleaver, and how to wield them both. When to stir and when to let things simmer. Once that kitchen and I have interacted long and intimately enough I will indeed be able to stroll out there and produce lovely, effortless meals. The effort comes first. Then the effortlessness. So it is real nice when you either love the work or are willling to march through it without whining, anyway. Oh sure with the right person so much of what was tiresome with others is delightful now, but trying to maximize understanding by minimizing verbal interaction just doesn't seem like a good percentage play. To the OP, there are all kinds of ways for that familiarity to grow between you and a partner. It might grow faster and/or stronger the more of them you employ. The process doesn't have to look even remotely like Party S instructing Party D to the effect that she would presently enjoy a serving of XYZ. You can simply attend carefully to one another as you interact and with stupendous natural insight and sympathy and years of application of this technique, maybe you could get there without talking about things. Good luck. Alternatively you could open up to him about what has been fulfilling and frustrating to you in your past relationships. You could find a way, suitable to both of you, to incorporate some version of a de-briefing into the cycle of your interactions. This could be matter-of-fact and straightforward, it could be ritualized, it could be a journal he has access to; it could be a lot of things. You could choose to process the sharing of this information as one more service you are willing to offer him. If it pains you to do this you could buck up and do what is best for the relationship and process the pain masochistically (this could entail anything from leaving him--cause the best things for some relationships is a kind conclusion-- to actually talking to the guy.) You could create fiction or art or poetry or music for him, or share the art of others with him which portrays the sorts of things you would like to explore. There are so many more ways you could communicate to him that which you would like to be available to him in his head, without ever Asking For This, Now. My girlfriend and I both like food and cooking. We got down with that common interest early on. We were able to do that because she was able from the start to say things like: "I love adventurous food handmade of fresh, wholesome ingredients. I've found things to enjoy in every cuisine I've tried except American fast food. I'm interested in exploring bitter and complex and foreign just as much as sweet and simple and familiar." With that I can make informed decisions about when I want to feed her arcane delicacies; when I want to feed her steak and potatoes; when I want to feed her at Wendy's or from a can; when I want her to feed us both--which is often because she's fucking amazing in the kitchen, an inspiration--and when I want her to go hungry. I could have all this time made all the very same mealtime decisions if she had never shared her orientations with me, if she had managed to deny me the intimacy of the knowledge of her relationship with food. But why in the hell would she do this? Because it isn't particularly "domly" for me to cook a meal she likes if I happen to know she likes it? Fuck that. And by the way, what is particularly "subly" about denying intimacy to your partner? That knife cuts both ways. In my house, Daddy decides. If Daddy decides to take this or that into account as he makes his decisions, that's his business and not one to be disputed by somebody else who has decided that Daddy 's decision making process is not up to snuff. Because--I trust you can see it coming--Daddy decides. I enjoy intimacy and so I demand it. It shouldn't be too surprising to find out that giving a capable dominant intimate knowledge of you can result in all sorts of things which you and he will both treasure. So if you had no communication options but to order up your desires as if from a menu on the spot, I'd understand your pain. But you have a world of other communication options. There are ways to let him know about your orientations to things, your ticklish spots and erogenous zones. Those ways never have to include asking for anything in particular. The other piece of this puzzle is some sort of basic degree of compatibility. If you are already using seven of those alternative means of communication and Bozo still just don't get it unless you whack him in the face with a bald request, well maybe it is time for a new clown. I see no need to bring your question of duty into it. In fact I think a concept like that just muddies the waters here. No one has a duty to be compatiable with you. If this guy is allowed to know you and you two just can't do the dance together, talking about his failure to do his duty to do the dance adds nothing but an obfuscating layer of noise to the conversation as far as I can see, or hear. If he is prohibitted from knowing you except by Magic Intuition, well I've never put up with that kind of malarkey and so am blissfully ignorant of what anyone might want to do in such a case. Your plight is far from unique. I think the crux here has everything to do the fatc that the meanings behind the acts can be the salient issue rather than the acts themselves. But we must keep in mind that meanings are created as much as they are found, in my view. Thank you for presenting the matter so thoughtfully for the benefit of all. I hope that some corner of what I've offered is of use. As for someone's claim that it all comes down to the differences between how men communicate and how women communicate, well that might be a non-preposterous claim in a world where all BDSM couplings are herterosexual, but in this world the issues at hand obtain just as well between members of same-sex couples as they do between hetero couples.

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