Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Trial of Tony Blair


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The Trial of Tony Blair Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/25/2007 3:49:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL meatcleaver
It wouldn't be happening if there wasn't an invasion. You can't say the chaos is not your problem if you caused the chaos in the first place.


This justification is equivalent to freeing someone from shackles and the first thing they do is hit you on the head with the shackle,. then a third party blames you for freeing the "nutcase" in the first place.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/25/2007 4:17:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		No it isn't. The invasion wasn't to free Iraqis, it was for their oil. I think with the privatisation of the Iraqi oil industry and the signing of long term lucrative contracts for American oil companies looming, it is pretty clear what the invasion was about now. Jeez, even some Saudis have let it been known they think American invasion is for looting Iraqi oil.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/25/2007 5:47:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.
Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .

Whichever indigenous Iraqui group ultimately ends up in control will need Western expertise to benefit from their good fortune with regard to the location of fossil fuel.
As George W said if the US progresses to Oil independance then the Middle East can leave the US alone.  Thats what he said. lol

Its just a fact of life MC that in the immediate future the 1st World countries not only need but have got to have that Oil. The elites, at least, in the Oil rich nations are amply rewarded.
Why are you so upset by that ? 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/25/2007 5:56:49 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/25/2007 6:54:55 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.
Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .


No, because the USA followed by an arse licking Britain kicked out the old regime and disbanded ALL local power structures to put in its own puppet regime in place which had no legitimacy. Now chaos reigns, the blame is full square on those that destablised the country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Whichever indigenous Iraqui group ultimately ends up in control will need Western expertise to benefit from their good fortune with regard to the location of fossil fuel.
As George W said if the US progresses to Oil independance then the Middle East can leave the US alone.  Thats what he said. lol


Which actually proves why the US is there in the first place. Not that anyone with half a brain thought otherwise.

Western expertise doesn't mean American expertise. The Iraqis could have chosen who they wanted if they didn't have a puppet regime forced upon them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Its just a fact of life MC that in the immediate future the 1st World countries not only need but have got to have that Oil. The elites, at least, in the Oil rich nations are amply rewarded.
Why are you so upset by that ? 


Why am I upset? 600,000 dead Iraqis so Americans and Britains can have a life of relatively luxury is what upsets me. Call it sanctimony, call it moral outrage, I don't fucking care. I don't see why some people have to die so some other people can drive round in gas guzzling SUVs and have the luxury of air conditioning.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/25/2007 6:56:47 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/25/2007 9:55:22 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.
Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .



Your source for it being religious enthusiasts doing the killing would be?  Faux News?

It is entirely possible that people are killing each other who coincidentally happen to be religious
enthusiasts.  There is no clear cause to effect relationship between religious zealotry and murder.

quote:



Whichever indigenous Iraqui group ultimately ends up in control will need Western expertise to benefit from their good fortune with regard to the location of fossil fuel.



What is interesting is that most large western oil companies are having trouble recruiting skilled people willing to work in that industry.

And China is not technically a western country, but they know how to get oil out of the ground.


Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 5:49:03 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.
Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .

No, because the USA followed by an arse licking Britain kicked out the old regime and disbanded ALL local power structures to put in its own puppet regime in place which had no legitimacy. Now chaos reigns, the blame is full square on those that destablised the country.


A legitimate government is whatever the people in power say it is. Simple fact of geo-politics, or are you going to argue that the German and Japanese governments are illegitimate as they were set up by invading/liberating armies?

You would rather a country run by a minority using fear and force of arms? After all that is pretty much what existed prior to the entry of coalition troops. It seems to me you are saying fear of a ruling government and the knock on the door at dawn by an armed secret police subject to no constitution is a better thing than an attempt at self determination, and all that comes with it. On one hand we have people on these boards complaining about the erosion of civil liberties at home, but many of the same people seem to think that a country with no bill of rights, no civil liberties was actually a good thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.
Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .

Your source for it being religious enthusiasts doing the killing would be?  Faux News?

It is entirely possible that people are killing each other who coincidentally happen to be religious
enthusiasts.  There is no clear cause to effect relationship between religious zealotry and murder.


My source for this is people out there on the ground, I suggest you search for the thread from a short while ago that points out what is going on over there is more akin to gang warfare than any form of insurrection against an occupying army. The original source in that instance was a member of the US military out there on the ground.

Out of interest, what are your sources as to what is happening? Mine are a number of news sources, including direct un-edited feeds from Reuters & AP, and even arabic broadcast channels, and of course the people I have sent there who are working on the ground, far from the news crews and support of the coalition forces.

You dont want our troops in there attempting to move a country out of the middle ages, can I ask what it is you do want?

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 7:43:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy


A legitimate government is whatever the people in power say it is. Simple fact of geo-politics, or are you going to argue that the German and Japanese governments are illegitimate as they were set up by invading/liberating armies?



Well let's face it, the people in power in Iraq can say whatever they want because they don't control Iraq and neither does the US. The point is the US created the chaos and by the looks of it the only way they are going to put an end to the chaos is convincing the Iraqi population their puppet government is legitimate.

Doesn't seem to be happening though.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 8:10:34 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		That is sort of my point MC, the legitmacy or otherwise of any government all depends on where you sit.

If the US dont control Iraq how did they install a puppet regime? surely there must have been some control to take out the pre-existing power structure and install a new one?

Care to answer any of the other points I raised such as secret police, civil liberties, alternatives to occupation?

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 8:36:53 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

You would rather a country run by a minority using fear and force of arms? After all that is pretty much what existed prior to the entry of coalition troops. It seems to me you are saying fear of a ruling government and the knock on the door at dawn by an armed secret police subject to no constitution is a better thing than an attempt at self determination, and all that comes with it. On one hand we have people on these boards complaining about the erosion of civil liberties at home, but many of the same people seem to think that a country with no bill of rights, no civil liberties was actually a good thing.



It isn't a case of what I want, Iraq isn't my country nor is it American and neither the Brits or the Americans should be there, after all they are not there for the good of the people but for the oil. Iraq was controled by fear and now there is no control and just fear and the majority (if you believe reports) say life was better under Saddam. That is an indictment of the invasion and the situation created by the invasion and why Bush and Blair should be held responsible. One has to have freedom in ones own country before one can campaign for freedom in another and anyway, much as we may wish to, we can't solve all the world's problems by invading someone and trying to plant western type government, it doesn't work. Not that anyone was seriously trying to plant western type government, oil was the reason for the invasion after all.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 9:15:22 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Going then, from MCs point about the failure of UK and US presence in Iraq to instil law and order, and given Luckydog's (et al) verdict that the war itself was not illegal and hence no war crime charge may be laid...

Is there any legal ground or precedent by which Bush and Blair et al might be held legally responsible for the failure, by way of actual criminal charges? (I feel not). Alternatively, are there any civil grounds or precedent for civil prosecution, for negligence for example?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 9:20:53 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Iraq was controled by fear and now there is no control and just fear and the majority (if you believe reports) say life was better under Saddam. That is an indictment of the invasion and the situation created by the invasion and why Bush and Blair should be held responsible. One has to have freedom in ones own country before one can campaign for freedom in another and anyway, much as we may wish to, we can't solve all the world's problems by invading someone and trying to plant western type government, it doesn't work. Not that anyone was seriously trying to plant western type government, oil was the reason for the invasion after all.


So until you are free the rest of the world is unimportant? Odd when I said something similar, that one of my priorities was myself and my own people in another thread I got slated for it, perhaps even by you. Newsflash for you, compared to a lot of the world you ARE free. You can go protest to an elected represenative, you can choose where you get your news and information from, none of these applied in Iraq. You have a bill of rights and a constitution that at least get lip service. You can have a village in the north of your country and be from a different sect of the same religion and not be gassed for it, are baptists killed by catholics over the minor difference between the two? Perhaps the other way round would be more apt as the Ba'ath party were from the minority religous sect within Iraq. 

To say you cant have any freedom at all until I have total freedom is no different from saying you can have oil once I have all I want. See a similarity?

I still dont get how hung people are over the oil issue. Guess what, there is as much or more oil in countries where the US either already had a major economic/military prescence, and/or are much closer to home. That of course is working purely on proven reserves, bear in mind that much of Siberia, Canada and Alaska has yet to be fully explored. If there was an issue over oil, it was not the oil itself, but the currency it was traded in.

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 9:53:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

So until you are free the rest of the world is unimportant? Odd when I said something similar, that one of my priorities was myself and my own people in another thread I got slated for it, perhaps even by you. Newsflash for you, compared to a lot of the world you ARE free. You can go protest to an elected represenative, you can choose where you get your news and information from, none of these applied in Iraq. You have a bill of rights and a constitution that at least get lip service. You can have a village in the north of your country and be from a different sect of the same religion and not be gassed for it, are baptists killed by catholics over the minor difference between the two? Perhaps the other way round would be more apt as the Ba'ath party were from the minority religous sect within Iraq. 

To say you cant have any freedom at all until I have total freedom is no different from saying you can have oil once I have all I want. See a similarity?

I still dont get how hung people are over the oil issue. Guess what, there is as much or more oil in countries where the US either already had a major economic/military prescence, and/or are much closer to home. That of course is working purely on proven reserves, bear in mind that much of Siberia, Canada and Alaska has yet to be fully explored. If there was an issue over oil, it was not the oil itself, but the currency it was traded in.


While wishing everyone was free, the west can't save the world and not everyone in the world sees the west's way of life as the best and what they would want. It is not for us to impose our way of life on other people. Why should we invade a country and impose our values on them? You would be pretty pissed off if a muslim country invaded Britain imposed what their way of life on you. Many muslims (apparently) accept that democracy is incompatible with Islam so why should we expect them to consider our idea of civil liberties as some how superior to what they consider superior values?

A country has the right to trade in any currency it wants and if the US invaded because Saddam wanted to trade in euros, then the invasion is still an imperial act of aggression.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/26/2007 9:55:04 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 10:09:16 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Going then, from MCs point about the failure of UK and US presence in Iraq to instil law and order, and given Luckydog's (et al) verdict that the war itself was not illegal and hence no war crime charge may be laid...

Is there any legal ground or precedent by which Bush and Blair et al might be held legally responsible for the failure, by way of actual criminal charges? (I feel not). Alternatively, are there any civil grounds or precedent for civil prosecution, for negligence for example?

E


Well I immediately think of a post elsewhere I made along these lines.

Either

Blair lied about WMD and the 45 minute time frame. Not sure lying to the palace of westminster is actually criminal though. Perhaps fraud, deceiving the population for personal gain? After all given the rest of his time in power the book rights for his other failures wouldnt be worth jack.

or.....

Blair knowingly sent employees of the crown into danger without adequate personal protective equipment. Perhaps these grounds would only really apply if British troops had been subject to attacks by such munitions

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 10:17:10 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It is not for us to impose our way of life on other people. Why should we invade a country and impose our values on them? You would be pretty pissed off if a muslim country invaded Britain imposed what their way of life on you. Many muslims (apparently) accept that democracy is incompatible with Islam so why should we expect them to consider our idea of civil liberties as some how superior to what they consider superior values?


And yet when myself and others have complained of such actions we have been shot down as right-wing, neo-facist, racist thugs. The only difference being that the invading forces have used stealth, guile, and our own willingness to try be accepting against us.

I am likewise sure that many muslims dont really give a damn wether a fellow muslim is sunni or shia, kurdish or turkish, however there are a lot that do, and the dictator that ran Iraq was one of them. If the resident population feels that a dictorial theocracy is what they want they now have the opportunity to build such a state again. They now have the freedom to choose a dictator of their own free will rather than vote for one out of fear of that knock on the door.


_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 2:48:32 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .

Your source for it being religious enthusiasts doing the killing would be?  Faux News?It is entirely possible that people are killing each other who coincidentally happen to be religious enthusiasts.  There is no clear cause to effect relationship between religious zealotry and murder.


Mr Sinergy when I see a post of such breathtaking sophistry and disingenuousness I know I am in the presence of a master.

When I see religious Group A blow up a Mosque used by religious group B and then gangs of religious group B slaughter as many of religious group A as they can get near to, while you may be inclined to blame Blair/Bush I blame religious "enthusiasts" or more particularly Islamic fundamentalists..

I only use A/B 's because I cant recall whether it was a Sunni or Shia Mosque that was attacked. 

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 3:48:41 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

And yet when myself and others have complained of such actions we have been shot down as right-wing, neo-facist, racist thugs. The only difference being that the invading forces have used stealth, guile, and our own willingness to try be accepting against us.

I am likewise sure that many muslims dont really give a damn wether a fellow muslim is sunni or shia, kurdish or turkish, however there are a lot that do, and the dictator that ran Iraq was one of them. If the resident population feels that a dictorial theocracy is what they want they now have the opportunity to build such a state again. They now have the freedom to choose a dictator of their own free will rather than vote for one out of fear of that knock on the door.



Muslims have a faith based culture, the west doesn't. The west imposing a free market liberal democracy is going to be seen as it is, exploitative. Islamic banks aren't allowed to charge interest, it usuary. They have completely different moral vision surrounding money and lending it. There is a whole different power structure at work than in western societies. It's stupid trying to imposed western values on a culture we don't understand. if that is what they want, that is what they want. Who are we to question that? The only reason we are questioning it is for imperial reasons that have nothing to do with our concern for them as fellow human beings.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 4:43:51 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Out of interest, what are your sources as to what is happening? Mine are a number of news sources, including direct un-edited feeds from Reuters & AP, and even arabic broadcast channels, and of course the people I have sent there who are working on the ground, far from the news crews and support of the coalition forces.



I have read a number of different articles in magazines like Rolling Stone about Iraq.  I recently finished Cobra II.  There are others.  I tend to not think much of anything shown on a news channel.  You probably have a better handle on it than I do.  I will say that I think what is going on in Iraq is more closely akin to anarchy than an organized struggle.  My objection is that somehow religion is part of the problem.

As regards what I want.  I am not sure.  But then, my expertise for most of my adult life has been the one people call to fix things.  There was a relatively stable, albeit dictatorial and murderous, government running the show in Iraq.  The United States invaded with overwhelming military power and overthrew the country.  This was easy to do.  The United States did not put enough troops on the ground to quell urban violence.  Over the next few years, further insurgents moved in and made even more urban violence.  Quelling this urban violence has not been easy to do.

The United States still does not have enough troops on the ground to quell urban violence, and Monkeyboy is systematically raping our military to try to make his idiotic little war work.

In my mind, this is throwing good money after bad.

The best answer I can give you is that I want the United States to stop the approach to solving the problem that is not working, and find a better approach, or admit he screwed the pooch and bring our troops home.  We cannot sustain the sucking chest wound that Monkeyboy has inflicted on our economy.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 5:47:11 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Out of interest, what are your sources as to what is happening? Mine are a number of news sources, including direct un-edited feeds from Reuters & AP, and even arabic broadcast channels, and of course the people I have sent there who are working on the ground, far from the news crews and support of the coalition forces.



I have read a number of different articles in magazines like Rolling Stone about Iraq.  I recently finished Cobra II.  There are others.  I tend to not think much of anything shown on a news channel.  You probably have a better handle on it than I do.  I will say that I think what is going on in Iraq is more closely akin to anarchy than an organized struggle.  My objection is that somehow religion is part of the problem.

OK, lets see just how many people I can offend with this statement....

Religion is almost always part of the problem, if not the problem itself.

Now to make a stab at justifying that statement. There has not really been a major, or even many minor conflicts since the dawn of time where religion did not play a part, either actively muslim v chrisitian in the crusades right on down to protestant v catholic in ulster. Where religion has not been a major issue (say WWII) leaders have always proclaimed "{relevant diety} is on our side"  Much of the infighting within Iraq is based along secular religous lines, namely sunni v shia. Having said that a lot of it is purely about personal greed as with the gang warfare thread elsewhere in this forum.

quote:


As regards what I want.  I am not sure.  But then, my expertise for most of my adult life has been the one people call to fix things.  There was a relatively stable, albeit dictatorial and murderous, government running the show in Iraq.  The United States invaded with overwhelming military power and overthrew the country.  This was easy to do.  The United States did not put enough troops on the ground to quell urban violence.  Over the next few years, further insurgents moved in and made even more urban violence.  Quelling this urban violence has not been easy to do.

Well I am one of those people who fix things, yet it seems I am berated for many for trying to do my little part. Yes I agree that those in charge either underestimated the potential for trouble, or did guess right and were just optimistic as to the capabilities of troops on the ground to act as an urban police force. Ar the risk of upsetting the fans of the US military machine, it is neither trained nor equipped for such a role.
quote:


The United States still does not have enough troops on the ground to quell urban violence, and Monkeyboy is systematically raping our military to try to make his idiotic little war work.

There are enough troops, it is just that their operational methods, training and equipment are unsuited to the role thrust upon them in this instance.
quote:


In my mind, this is throwing good money after bad.

The best answer I can give you is that I want the United States to stop the approach to solving the problem that is not working, and find a better approach, or admit he screwed the pooch and bring our troops home.  We cannot sustain the sucking chest wound that Monkeyboy has inflicted on our economy.

Sinergy

Whilst I can appreciate that view of pull out and leave alone, consider the alternatives.

1. Another lawless state like Yemen, but this time bordered by many nations that would be very uneasy about such a proposition. Not the best move for peace in the region as a whole.

2. Privateer capitalist scum not too unlike me move in and take over the country, not bound by international law, the uniform code of military justice or the Geneva convention and interested purely in the financial possibilities. Imagine that the worlds first country, a top ten oil stockholder run purely by people who would make Lenin's work camps look like a summer vacation.

There is a 3rd option, but the chances of that are so unlikely as to be discountable, namely that the moment the last soldier leaves the Iraqi people stand up, brush the dust off and quickly form a working government that suits their needs



_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 5:57:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

OK, lets see just how many people I can offend with this statement....



Not me.

quote:



Religion is almost always part of the problem, if not the problem itself.



This is, I suppose, correct, although it does not state that you think the problem in Iraq is religion.

I am sure religion is a problem there, I just dont happen to think it is a major one.

quote:



There are enough troops, it is just that their operational methods, training and equipment are unsuited to the role thrust upon them in this instance.



Well, there were enough troops in Vietnam to win the war as well.  And most people know how well that went.

Unless the US wants to commit genocide on a civilian population, we do not have enough troops on the ground to fix the country.

The problem is that the US does not want to commit genocide.  So we are in a situation where we are unable to fix the problem we created when Monkeyboy overthrew the government capable of keeping a murderous iron bootheel on a population with entrenched animosity towards other members of the population.

Monkeyboy has trouble understanding this, apparently.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 6:15:36 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Religion is almost always part of the problem, if not the problem itself.


I am not a religious person, but I cannot begin to see how one can make this statement. People are the cause of violence, their belief systems have little to do with it. If you look down through the ages, at different places at different times, the only thing that all people involved with violence have is this... they are all people. Stating that religion is the reason people get violent is slightly off the mark and shows that one is not reasoning correctly.. it is a logical fallacy too. Not all people that are violent are religious. Not all people that are religious are violent.

You are ignoring the millions that Pol Pot killed, and the millions that Stalin killed, it just lacks substantiation to claim such things. Most people "believe" in something larger than themselves, so to blame religion as some culprit that leads to all the violence that has ever been in the world would be faulty reasoning, it would be just as valid to look for the reasons why religious officials beat war drums... usually these are economic reasons that have nothing absolutely at all to do with religion... it is just used as a justification.

It might be telling to look at the process that those who conduct war use to dehumanize and demonize the "enemy" to get the masses to go along with the game they play. Religion at times plays a part, true. But if not religion, then some lie about the enemy being cannibals, raping their women, taking their daughters will often serve the same purpose.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: The Trial of Tony Blair Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109