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RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/26/2007 6:23:53 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
So religious enthusiasts in Iraq are killing one another because the West extracts Oil from Iraq.Something I guess, but do not know, has been done for the last 70 years or so .

Your source for it being religious enthusiasts doing the killing would be?  Faux News?It is entirely possible that people are killing each other who coincidentally happen to be religious enthusiasts.  There is no clear cause to effect relationship between religious zealotry and murder.


Mr Sinergy when I see a post of such breathtaking sophistry and disingenuousness I know I am in the presence of a master.

When I see religious Group A blow up a Mosque used by religious group B and then gangs of religious group B slaughter as many of religious group A as they can get near to, while you may be inclined to blame Blair/Bush I blame religious "enthusiasts" or more particularly Islamic fundamentalists..

I only use A/B 's because I cant recall whether it was a Sunni or Shia Mosque that was attacked. 


So what you are saying is that the problem in Iraq is 100% based in religion?

Because you dont seem to understand that while I think there is a religious aspect to the problems in Iraq, I dont happen to think it is a major one.

"As long as the Arabian tribes argue and bicker among themselves, they will always be a silly people, a little people, murderous and barbarous and cruel."  T.E. Lawrence.

Simple minded cretins like Dumbfuckistan elected to be Emperor enjoy breaking down complex situations into sound bites about things like Religion that can be comprehended easily and which other simple minded cretins can salivate when they hear them.

If thinking such things works for you, I say go with it.

Sinergy


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 1:43:56 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I have no doubt that other than differences between Islamic creeds another major factor in the Iraqui problem is the desire to get the infidel out of the region, but even that is tinged with religious "enthusiasm".

With regard to oil what I suggest is that the West gives up all its interest in the industry there, never mind that Western expertise created it, the industry  was and is exploitative, and then watch the supplies being diverted elsewhere, say India and China.

The super tankers can be converted to floating hotels driven by wind power and we can all enjoy ourselves watching our economies grinding to a halt !!

That should please someone surely ?

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 8:33:55 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I have no doubt that other than differences between Islamic creeds another major factor in the Iraqui problem is the desire to get the infidel out of the region, but even that is tinged with religious "enthusiasm".

With regard to oil what I suggest is that the West gives up all its interest in the industry there, never mind that Western expertise created it, the industry  was and is exploitative, and then watch the supplies being diverted elsewhere, say India and China.

The super tankers can be converted to floating hotels driven by wind power and we can all enjoy ourselves watching our economies grinding to a halt !!

That should please someone surely ?


Western expertise did not create it, geesh, nature did. Western expertise just showed others how to exploit it. By your reasoning no one else should have a computer industry but the USA or a film industry either

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:15:01 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Well, there were enough troops in Vietnam to win the war as well.  And most people know how well that went.


Again the issue was not numbers, but methods. The US military has always figured that superior firepower and technology is the answer to everything, yet again they are finding that is not so. Us brits have been fighting limited urban and jungle warfare since just after the second world war. Within days of entering Basrah british troops were walking the streets in soft headwear and personal weaponry only, Baghdad has never once reached the level of peace that Basrah had except within the tightly controlled green zone. Troops on foot are seen as much less of a threat to the populace than an Abrams.


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

Religion is almost always part of the problem, if not the problem itself.

I am not a religious person, but I cannot begin to see how one can make this statement. People are the cause of violence, their belief systems have little to do with it. If you look down through the ages, at different places at different times, the only thing that all people involved with violence have is this... they are all people. Stating that religion is the reason people get violent is slightly off the mark and shows that one is not reasoning correctly.. it is a logical fallacy too. Not all people that are violent are religious. Not all people that are religious are violent.

Please re-read, the important word is part, my justification is if all the people were muslim, rather than sunni or shia, christian rather than catholic or protestant etc a great deal of the justification for many conflicts would be gone. Many conflicts are based on either "my god is better than yours", or "I am a truer believer in our god than you". Heck it even happens in smalltown USA, the baptists snigger at the mormons, the mormons snigger at the catholics, the catholics snigger at the amish, its not a big step between a snigger, a slap and a 7.62mm rifle round, especially if {deity} is on your side.

How many muslims would be willing to walk around in a semtex vest if they did not believe in the gardens filled with willing virgins? I think an awful lot wouldn't without the promise of such a wonderful afterlife. This statement applies to anyone that enters a conflict believing they have some deity on their side, and lets face it, that really is the majority of people involved in any conflict throughout time since religions got themselves organised.


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:23:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Replying to post 83 I say...
Naaagh The industry and technology  developed to extract the raw material came from the West, probably the US possibly also from the UK, I dont know  exactly, likewise the refinaries to change the crude into a usable product. Similarly in the early days the tankers to transport the crude.
Today I believe the Super Tankers are built in either Korea or Japan.

Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where.....
the  first computers were built, I suspect you will get a surprise !!
Then check where motion picture technology was developed,another little frisson for you lol

HINT: contentious "sauces" aside, neither was developed in the US.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/27/2007 2:29:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:26:05 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Religion is certainly not the problem.

It is a part of the problem for two reasons:

1) It is a ready made tool to herd the masses behind a banner.
2) It is a component of ethnicity that creates division between groups.

It is incorrect to say the shia/sunni division is purely religion driven. It is not. It is ethnic driven and religion is only one component of ethnicity.

As ever, it is not black and white. The extent of the impact of religion in driving or supporting war is open to debate and requires a thorough analysis of ethnicity.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:30:37 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where the  first computers were built.  I suspect you will get a surprise !!

Then check where motion pictures were developed, another little frisson for you lol


Well now that would be here in jolly ole England, although I seem to recall that the first movie was actually shot by a frenchman. I used to walk across that bridge he used as a location almost daily.

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RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:43:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

How many muslims would be willing to walk around in a semtex vest if they did not believe in the gardens filled with willing virgins? I think an awful lot wouldn't without the promise of such a wonderful afterlife. This statement applies to anyone that enters a conflict believing they have some deity on their side, and lets face it, that really is the majority of people involved in any conflict throughout time since religions got themselves organised.



That is just the point, there have been many many conflicts before and after organized religion. Just because religion is mentioned does not mean that is the reason why people really go to war.

If you and neighbors that spoke a different language, lived by different rules, seemed to be trying to forcibly change the way you do things, you would get tense on their ass too. Now if someone stirs the hornet's nest by inflicting violence, then the powder keg ignites.

Look at riots that happen in different countries and civil unrest... it usually happens because people have their rights stomped on, not because of religious conviction. There is no way in hell I would die for a religious conviction, most people won't.... they will risk their lives because they perceive a threat to their children and their way of life though.

Did you know that most Muslims do not live in the Middle East? Most Muslims are fairly moderate, their women do not wear traditional modesty garments, they are not trying to force anyone to live the way they do anymore than anyone else.... so what you think of as religious extremism, I see as cultural difference. If a whole bunch of foreigners landed on your shores, tried to change your language, change your laws, encourage your daughters to have promiscious sex and run around naked, you might have a problem with this.... this is how the West is perceived. And what you think of as religious conflict between peoples that live there is more of an ethnic conflict.. Persian V. Arab

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/27/2007 2:44:03 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:53:38 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Most Muslims are fairly moderate, their women do not wear traditional modesty garments, they are not trying to force anyone to live the way they do anymore than anyone else....

I'll vouch for this. I've spent time in the Middle East and my perception is/was that they just want to get their heads down and get on with life. There was no militancy on show (admittedly, I didn't go to Saudi).
 
Also, some of the women are more westernised than westerners and look like they've spent half the day in the mirror and the other half spending some serious money on top designer labels.

And what you think of as religious conflict between peoples that live there is more of an ethnic conflict

The people of the Middle East are far more worried about fundmentalism than we are. If it spreads from places like Pakistan and Afghanistan then it won't affect us but it will affect the people of the M.E. as they will have to live under such a regime. Saudi and The Yemen are the exceptions.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 2:59:34 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

How many muslims would be willing to walk around in a semtex vest if they did not believe in the gardens filled with willing virgins? I think an awful lot wouldn't without the promise of such a wonderful afterlife. This statement applies to anyone that enters a conflict believing they have some deity on their side, and lets face it, that really is the majority of people involved in any conflict throughout time since religions got themselves organised.



That is just the point, there have been many many conflicts before and after organized religion. Just because religion is mentioned does not mean that is the reason why people really go to war.

Agreed within limits. Again I stress the word part, not necessarily the reason, but a reason. If any one reason can be completely removed, be it language, colour, religion, or even taste in music, that can only help lessen the motivation to fight
quote:


Did you know that most Muslims do not live in the Middle East? Most Muslims are fairly moderate, their women do not wear traditional modesty garments, they are not trying to force anyone to live the way they do anymore than anyone else....

Yes to all of the above.
quote:


so what you think of as religious extremism, I see as cultural difference. If a whole bunch of foreigners landed on your shores, tried to change your language, change your laws, encourage your daughters to have promiscious sex and run around naked, you might have a problem with this.... this is how the West is perceived. And what you think of as religious conflict between peoples that live there is more of an ethnic conflict.. Persian V. Arab


Lets get something straight here, ethnic is an umbrella term, religion is by the dictionary definition an ethnic difference.





1.
pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.



2.
referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.



3.
being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.



4.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.



5.
belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.



6.
Obsolete. pagan; heathen. –noun



7.
a member of an ethnic group.



And the difference between perisa and arabia? One is primarlily of the sunni sect of islam, the other is mainly shia. In much the some way many baltic states are orthodox catholic, others are lutherian.



If a whole bunch of foreigners landed on your shores, tried to change your language, change your laws, encourage your daughters to feel like second class citizens with practically no rights, you might have a problem with this....
Indeed I do, but that is covered in other threads

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 3:02:57 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		Lets put it this way. I am not a Christian, my brother is. My sister has a Buddhist brother inlaw, and my Daddy has Taoist leanings... we are all the same ethnicity.

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 3:10:58 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I doubt any specific religion matters, it's probably more about being part of the 'in group' against the 'outsiders' and religion is the badge. Morals or the lack of, aren't dependent on religion but religion can be important with identifying oneself as part of a group. Substitute fascism or communism for religion. Being part of the 'in group' is important in making decent people commit horrendous crimes.

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RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 3:20:21 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I doubt any specific religion matters, it's probably more about being part of the 'in group' against the 'outsiders' and religion is the badge. Morals or the lack of, aren't dependent on religion but religion can be important with identifying oneself as part of a group. Substitute fascism or communism for religion. Being part of the 'in group' is important in making decent people commit horrendous crimes.


Absolutely... people are violent, the rest is just an excuse for that fact. We are also pack oriented too when it comes to protecting our "group".

One of my anthropology professors pointed out that studies indicate that about 9 to 12 individuals is the largest that a group of people can be before the group starts having intrinsic problems based upon power plays and dominance issues. It is the size that a group starts to break down from cohesion... it seems that the military has used this ratio for a long while, and this is the size of a typical unit....

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/27/2007 3:21:31 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 3:21:13 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where the  first computers were built.  I suspect you will get a surprise !!

Then check where motion pictures were developed, another little frisson for you lol


Well now that would be here in jolly ole England, although I seem to recall that the first movie was actually shot by a frenchman. I used to walk across that bridge he used as a location almost daily.


Sleazy, I have not checked any "sauce" but I believe you are are right on both counts. I think the motion pivture camera was developed in France, but there was definately an early Brit pioneer. William Friese Green

Its not often I bang the drum for things British but there is no doubt whatsoever that the UK record of innovation is outstanding.
Shame the "pillocky" public school boys have squandered it all

It seems the "do gooders" are trying to tell us the Muslims present no problem after all. A likely story !

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 3:23:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I really have no nationalistic BS floating about in me. If the English did something first... Go England, that was not even my point, but good distraction there!


(reminds you that my point is technology leaves the people that develop it, and others use it, and that has been the way it has been since fire was tamed)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/27/2007 5:33:18 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where the  first computers were built.  I suspect you will get a surprise !!

Then check where motion pictures were developed, another little frisson for you lol


Well now that would be here in jolly ole England, although I seem to recall that the first movie was actually shot by a frenchman. I used to walk across that bridge he used as a location almost daily.


Interesting quote in Cobra 2 about Iraq.

I will paraphrase, since the book is in my dock bag.

American troops found that most of the irregular troops in Iraq had passports from Iran, Syria, Yemen, etc.  This gave a preview of the shape of things to come after the invasion was over.

US forces were told to identify weapons and explosives, but not to guard them.  In one instance alone, 350 tons of explosives were looted from a storage facility after being "liberated" by the US forces.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/28/2007 2:06:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL juliaoceania
.it=Oil.
Western expertise did not create it, geesh, nature did. Western expertise just showed others how to exploit it. By your reasoning no one else should have a computer industry but the USA or a film industry either


I responded by asking her to check her beloved "sauces" to find out where computers/movie cameras were developed 
then

quote:

ORIGINAL juiliaoceania
I really have no nationalistic BS floating about in me. If the English did something first... Go England, that was not even my point, but good distraction there!


The only thing I was reacting to MsJO was your apparent belief that computers/film cameras were developed in the USA.
So...nit picking maybe....distraction NO


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/28/2007 2:27:58 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Lets put it this way. I am not a Christian, my brother is. My sister has a Buddhist brother inlaw, and my Daddy has Taoist leanings... we are all the same ethnicity.


Apologies, but for both myself and the dictionary ethnicity is about a lot more than just being a politically acceptable way of say colour or race.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/28/2007 2:41:03 AM   
sleazy


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Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where the  first computers were built.  I suspect you will get a surprise !!

Then check where motion pictures were developed, another little frisson for you lol


Well now that would be here in jolly ole England, although I seem to recall that the first movie was actually shot by a frenchman. I used to walk across that bridge he used as a location almost daily.


Sleazy, I have not checked any "sauce" but I believe you are are right on both counts. I think the motion pivture camera was developed in France, but there was definately an early Brit pioneer. William Friese Green

Its not often I bang the drum for things British but there is no doubt whatsoever that the UK record of innovation is outstanding.
Shame the "pillocky" public school boys have squandered it all

It seems the "do gooders" are trying to tell us the Muslims present no problem after all. A likely story !



Louis Le Prince made recorded the first motion picture on Leeds bridge in 1888, The Lumiere brothers are generally given credit circa 7 years later.

I figure most people are aware of Charles Babbage and his difference engine. Then there was the first elctrical computer built at Bexley Park to crack the Enigma code (the bombe), developed by Alan Turing, such a big name in computing there is a defining standard bears his name.


On the issue of public shoolboys squandering developments I am afraid I have to disagree, it is pretty much the case that throughout history the earliest developers and users of any particular techonology have fallen behind, simply as the intitial investment does not readily allow for upgrading as other people improve on the initial concepts.


_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The Trial of Tony Blair - 1/28/2007 8:06:48 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Incidently Ms JO , with your obsession with " sauces" just do a bit of checking to find out where the  first computers were built.  I suspect you will get a surprise !!

Then check where motion pictures were developed, another little frisson for you lol


Well now that would be here in jolly ole England, although I seem to recall that the first movie was actually shot by a frenchman. I used to walk across that bridge he used as a location almost daily.


Sleazy, I have not checked any "sauce" but I believe you are are right on both counts. I think the motion pivture camera was developed in France, but there was definately an early Brit pioneer. William Friese Green

Its not often I bang the drum for things British but there is no doubt whatsoever that the UK record of innovation is outstanding.
Shame the "pillocky" public school boys have squandered it all

It seems the "do gooders" are trying to tell us the Muslims present no problem after all. A likely story !



Louis Le Prince made recorded the first motion picture on Leeds bridge in 1888, The Lumiere brothers are generally given credit circa 7 years later.

I figure most people are aware of Charles Babbage and his difference engine. Then there was the first elctrical computer built at Bexley Park to crack the Enigma code (the bombe), developed by Alan Turing, such a big name in computing there is a defining standard bears his name.


On the issue of public shoolboys squandering developments I am afraid I have to disagree, it is pretty much the case that throughout history the earliest developers and users of any particular techonology have fallen behind, simply as the intitial investment does not readily allow for upgrading as other people improve on the initial concepts.


Monkeyboy must certainly be happy that he can still watch movies while munching his Freedom fries, knowing he is not supporting those nasty French speaking Greenpeace defeaters.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 100
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