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RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/23/2007 10:06:16 AM   
SweetDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CerebralDomHfx


onestandingstill - Hmm, she's not really cheating tho, he is. He's the one in love with someone, and breaking that trust. She has no bond with the wife. It's a technicality, but it is a difference.  He doesn't expect her to be exclusive to him, but she wants to be, so it's a bit of a wash for her. Personally, I'd never fool around with someone who was married, but I know this isn’t a common feeling.


Ok, I have to call it ... this is bullshit!  If her story is true (which I'm not convinced that it is), then she knows full well that he is a married man, which makes her just as guilty as he is.  They are both cheaters because he is cheating on his wife and she's helping him to do so.  A drug dealer who doesn't use the drugs him/herself doesn't make him/her any less guilty ...

Personally, I'd run from this ... run far, run fast, run now.  You don't want to get caught up in the drama when his wife finds out about your friend ... and it will happen - the wife will find out, and if you are still friends with the girl then she will drag you into it as well.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/23/2007 5:51:48 PM   
acctonthelook


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unfortunately i have been her.  she cannot receive help because she doesn't want it or she would meet you.

ultimately your remaining her friend with encouragement to do the right thing and not be his mistress is best.

you may find you get hurt in all of this or she will be hurt by him enough to move on from him.

i know i had to hurt enough with the love i had for him and fought within regarding my own personal core values to find the strength to leave him. 

(in reply to CerebralDomHfx)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/23/2007 6:48:52 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: CerebralDomHfx


onestandingstill - Hmm, she's not really cheating tho, he is. He's the one in love with someone, and breaking that trust. She has no bond with the wife. It's a technicality, but it is a difference.  He doesn't expect her to be exclusive to him, but she wants to be, so it's a bit of a wash for her. Personally, I'd never fool around with someone who was married, but I know this isn’t a common feeling.


Ok, I have to call it ... this is bullshit!  If her story is true (which I'm not convinced that it is), then she knows full well that he is a married man, which makes her just as guilty as he is.  They are both cheaters because he is cheating on his wife and she's helping him to do so.  A drug dealer who doesn't use the drugs him/herself doesn't make him/her any less guilty ...

Personally, I'd run from this ... run far, run fast, run now.  You don't want to get caught up in the drama when his wife finds out about your friend ... and it will happen - the wife will find out, and if you are still friends with the girl then she will drag you into it as well.


Mmhmm.

There is some big, deep, dangerous and exceedingly cruel  non-consensual emotional sadism going on here, with the cheated-on wife as victim.

If you want to help some woman drive nails into another woman, and for all we know one or more children too, just stay the course.







(in reply to SweetDommes)
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RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/23/2007 9:27:35 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

Mmhmm.

There is some big, deep, dangerous and exceedingly cruel  non-consensual emotional sadism going on here, with the cheated-on wife as victim.


Im not here to advocate cheating.  But without knowing the dynamics of this particular marriage, labeling the wife as a victim is pretty shallow thinking.  For all we know, she's fucking around on him.  For all we know she's glad he's fucking something else, so she doesnt have to feel his touch anymore.  For all we know, she knows he's fucking around but stays with him because she's a whore for his paycheck.   Maybe the husband is her victim.  Maybe she lies to him and 'cheats' on him in other ways like humiliating him in front of family and friends because he has a small dick. Maybe she blows guys on a street corner in exchange for a nickel bag.  I mean, who the hell knows.  There are a million and one ways to 'cheat' another human being. Let's not make this woman out to be a victim when we don't know jackshit about her.

quote:

If you want to help some woman drive nails into another woman, and for all we know one or more children too, just stay the course.


How does being friends with someone who is fucking a married person hurt the married person's children?   

Hypothetically speaking, a friend, (even one who wants to fuck her) might actually help get her away from the married man by talking sense to her.   why is it assumed that only bad can come from this?  Is this girl not entitled to friendship or support?  Or is friendship something that's only reserved for people who have never made the mistake of fucking a married person?

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RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 2:50:09 PM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

marieToo
Im not here to advocate cheating.  But without knowing the dynamics of this particular marriage, labeling the wife as a victim is pretty shallow thinking.  For all we know, she's fucking around on him.  For all we know she's glad he's fucking something else, so she doesnt have to feel his touch anymore.  For all we know, she knows he's fucking around but stays with him because she's a whore for his paycheck.   Maybe the husband is her victim.  Maybe she lies to him and 'cheats' on him in other ways like humiliating him in front of family and friends because he has a small dick. Maybe she blows guys on a street corner in exchange for a nickel bag.  I mean, who the hell knows.  There are a million and one ways to 'cheat' another human being. Let's not make this woman out to be a victim when we don't know jackshit about her.

I have usually always liked your posts- but this one- ugh what  a bunch of Bunk
sounds like your defending yourself
quote:

people who have never made the mistake of fucking a married person?

there is no such "mistake"  if the person is married and you know that and still fuckem you didnt make a mistake you did dam well what you wanted to right or wrong  you made the choice

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 3:37:15 PM   
beticat


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Been here, done this, have the T-shirt.
The blunt reality is that SHE is the ONLY one who can help herself.
Until she is willing to give up whatever she is gaining from this relationship, there is nothing you can say or do that will change her behavior.
My armchair analysis is that she is scared and has created a situation where she doesn't have to risk herself.
IF you can keep from harming yourself emotionally by staying connected with her as friends, then, YES, do so. There may come a point when she finally *hears* what she's saying to you and thereby gains the strength to leave over the fear of risking herself with someone.
As a side note, it took me almost two years to process the anger, betrayal and disillusionment I felt when I finally 'woke up'. I was the other woman, he did divorce his wife but my role as his 'mistress' didn't change.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Cat


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But if you try sometimes you just might find
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(in reply to CerebralDomHfx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 3:54:19 PM   
SlaveAkasha


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As someone that has had relationships with married men before.. trust me, she can help herself and walk away.  You said that it takes time to trust and share..but this seems more like "lying by omission" than taking her time.
 
She can sit there and be ashamed all she wants, but it's still her choice to lay in his bed whenever he wants a bit of fun.  It does make you feel like crap..but until she realizes that she isn't really anything to him (trust me again, he doesn't love her), there isn't much you can do.
 
I do think you are too close to the situation, and after someone hid something like that from me, more-so if they proclaimed to have had as strong of a connection towards me as I did them, I think I would move on and find someone that will be honest with me from the beginning.  Trust does take time, but you didn't talk a couple of weeks.. you said yourself you had been talking for months.
 
You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders, perhaps you should take that smart head and find someone honest you feel that strong of a connection with and leave her to figure out her own life.  You want a sub/slave that is strong enough to do the right thing...you will find her.
 
Kasha

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(in reply to CerebralDomHfx)
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RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 4:07:14 PM   
SlyStone


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"I have usually always liked your posts- but this one- ugh what  a bunch of Bunk
sounds like your defending yourself"

And she could respond in kind, that you sound like the bitter wife who was cheated on. Than you could both be guilty of projecting.


"there is no such "mistake"  if the person is married and you know that and still fuckem you didnt make a mistake you did dam well what you wanted to right or wrong  you made the choice""


On the contrary all mistakes arise from bad choices and we all make them. Some mistakes are unforgivable and some are not. You may argue that cheating is one of the unforgivable ones and that would be your opinion. I would disagree and argue that we would have to look at all the circumstances and that we would have to look at the intent before coming to any conclusion.

You may argue  ( feel free to jump in here any time, taking both sides is exhausting :)  that the act itself implies an intent to harm, case closed. Others would look further into it and if they found no real intent to harm but only the mistake of infatuation or love or need or whatever, perhaps they would forgive, perhaps not. That would be up to the individuals themselves.

I just don't think things are quite so black and white as we sometimes make them out to be.


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 4:09:13 PM   
Sinergy


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Hello,

I guess my thoughts on this go back to the OP's choice of topic name; "Guiding a New Sub."  She does not sound like she is or has ever been submissive to you, so I am a bit puzzled why you think you are "guiding" her.  Although I will caveat that saying I dont do online D and s, and find the whole thing a bit bizarre.  Wonder if people who do this think the person on the other end of a phone sex hotline is actually having an orgasm.

Sounds to me like the OP is being used by this person to commit adultery with a married man, as well as to satiate her jollies.  She sounds less like a submissive and more like a bottom who sees a Dominant individual as a life support system for a flogger, in this case online.

My initial thoughts revolve around the general idea of "Run far, run fast."

Sinergy

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(in reply to SlaveAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 4:46:10 PM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

SlyStone
And she could respond in kind, that you sound like the bitter wife who was cheated on. Than you could both be guilty of projecting.

yes she very well could, but she would be wrong- sorry nope not bitter, not cheated or been cheated on hub and I are weird we actualy like  and respect each other a great deal
quote:

On the contrary all mistakes arise from bad choices and we all make them.

In this situation I dont agree- if your going to choose to sleep with a married person how can one possibly think this choice is a good one. Then say oh that choice was a mistake   -so there is no blame -because well. it was a "mistake"  when you know a person is married and engage in sexuals relations anyway- you choose
purposely willfully with intent- doesnt matter the circumstances- happy lonely infatuated sad horny - choice was wrong /bad but wasnt mistaken

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 7:58:02 PM   
CerebralDomHfx


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Ah, I thank you all for your posts. Some have been helpful, others are just falling into the usual net bickering that seems to happen online so often.. :-)

As you can imagine, it's more complex than what I can present here - It took me a few pages just to pose the question in the simplest fashion I could - To explain the whole situation in full detail is beyond what I'm willing to do, and honestly I don't feel I need help with the other aspects of it.

I was curious to get some different perspectives. My real confusion was on the "Do I treat her differently because I know she's a sub" question, and I'm hearing from the group that she shouldn't get any special treatment for that. So noted..

Of course this is a game we are playing – Life is a game as far as I’m concerned. Be true to yourself and others, and don’t take it too seriously.
There are a lot of people who are quick to jump into the "Harlot!! Liar!!" camp. :-) When I thought about it more and checked some dates, I found that we had only been chatting for a month and few weeks by the time she told me about her big secret that no one knows. I don't expect someone to dump their entire life story to me in one go, I expect a gradual full disclosure once that person learns to trust me - And I'm sure you can all appreciate that it takes a little while to know you can trust someone you meet online - Specially if it's your first time. I went from strange sex freak (hey!) on the Internet to someone she's trusting with her most intimate details in less than two months, no face-to-face contact. I think that's fair.

I might as well touch on the oddity of the no meet thing now too - I know, I know.. I've been on literally a hundred coffee dates over the past 5 years, and I know how people can be different when you meet them in person. But I've also come to understand how they can be similar - And the qualities I'm looking for in a woman don't change from online to face-time. We've had plenty of time on cam (clothed for the pervs out there.. ), so I know what I'm getting into. I'm sure things will be more of a surprise for her, as I will be her first internet-based meeting, but I'm sure that while she will be different in some ways, she will also be largely the same.


Run run run is the advice, and I’d agree with you for any normal woman. Ah yes, I am attached to her, but I’m also not an idiot here… despite the fact that I have asked for relationship advice on the Internet. :-D
I don’t feel like running at this stage because I don’t believe it’s easy to find someone like her – Ignore this large flaw of her being with a married man (which as I pointed out before is morally wrong, but it’s not cheating.. If I’m not on a diet, can I cheat on it? Got-cha ), and she’s got an amazing amount of potential for me. 
I live in a small city – A listing of every female sub under 50 on this site, for my city won’t even fill one page. This isn’t Toronto or Montreal where subs grow on trees (or can be found tied to them :-) ). Almost all my mail received here in six months has been from subs or Doms outside of my area complimenting me on my profile. That doesn’t do much for me does it? :-) While I will not compromise on what I need in a woman, I will also not be quick to dismiss one who has the potential for being an excellent match.

So.. enough musing.. what will I do?
Here’s what I’ve decided;
If she wants to keep me as a friend, she has to show me that I mean something to her, and she needs to treat me as a real-life friend, not a chat buddy. 
We’re going to meet for a drink, and just chat. I think it’s a valid point to meet and chat face to face so I can see the woman who has consumed so much of my time. Maybe I will find that there isn’t enough there to sustain a romantic relationship, in which case everything becomes really easy for me to just be a friend.  We will meet from time to time, but I’m going to keep this friendly at this stage. Our first meet will actually be 4 months to the day from our first chat – I like lining things up like that.
She’s going to call me on the phone from time to time and chat, like you do with normal people. :-) She’s not allowed to only chat to me between these infrequent meets. One of her crutches is that she can’t tell people in person what she really wants and needs – she can do this with me in chat, so she will learn to do it with me on the phone.. and slowly she will get over this fear of verbalizing her needs to people.
I will keep my distance for now, and make sure I don’t get too close. She can’t have me as anything other than a friend until she’s moved on.. and I mean moved on – no dumping him and jumping into my arms. She’s got to take the leap knowing I may not be there for her… because I will continue to look for my sub, I will not wait. If she dumped him tomorrow, it would take months before I’d consider her.

I’ve told her this, and while she’s scared, she agrees. She keeps telling me I’m very special to her, and she’s willing to follow these ground rules to show me that I mean a lot to her, and to keep me in her life.

So what’s done is done. I’ve made my decision, and I will let this next stage play out the way I have planned. Comments are welcome, but not required because I’ve made my decision.

Thanks.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 8:09:21 PM   
marieToo


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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

marieToo
Im not here to advocate cheating.  But without knowing the dynamics of this particular marriage, labeling the wife as a victim is pretty shallow thinking.  For all we know, she's fucking around on him.  For all we know she's glad he's fucking something else, so she doesnt have to feel his touch anymore.  For all we know, she knows he's fucking around but stays with him because she's a whore for his paycheck.   Maybe the husband is her victim.  Maybe she lies to him and 'cheats' on him in other ways like humiliating him in front of family and friends because he has a small dick. Maybe she blows guys on a street corner in exchange for a nickel bag.  I mean, who the hell knows.  There are a million and one ways to 'cheat' another human being. Let's not make this woman out to be a victim when we don't know jackshit about her.

I have usually always liked your posts- but this one- ugh what  a bunch of Bunk
sounds like your defending yourself
quote:

people who have never made the mistake of fucking a married person?

there is no such "mistake"  if the person is married and you know that and still fuckem you didnt make a mistake you did dam well what you wanted to right or wrong  you made the choice


I cant possibly say it any better than SlyStone did, so there is no sense in repeating. 

I will add that I am not defending myself, or projecting anything except another point of view.  Im sorry if my words hit home for you somehow and touched a very obviously sore spot that you have;  but that's really no excuse for your rudeness.

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marie.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 8:12:55 PM   
marieToo


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Hell, all I really wanted was an argument from Noah anyway.

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marie.


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RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 8:17:32 PM   
texancutie


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Great thought provoking post DominaSmartass.  Made me think back on why I never wish to do an LDR again, or even carry on a long term chat relationship with someone that won't meet me in the near future.

And hate to admit it, Domiguy has hit the nail on the head. 

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/24/2007 8:25:17 PM   
marieToo


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You actually sound like a nice guy who genuinely cares for this girl.

Maybe since you are saying she is submissive in nature and her lover is not dominant, you can sort of turn up the dominance a notch and you just may find her gravitating towards you and away from the married dude. 

Id surely give it a shot.  Get 'fatherly' with her.  Lay it out for her that she is in a dead-end situation.   I dont mean to sound insulting but you seem too wishy washy with her.  Take a dominant stance with her, and talk to her about this in a stern fashion.  Try to point out the serious nature of what she is drowning in here.  Maybe a little tough love.  I dont know.  Just a suggestion.   In the meantime you are becoming emotionally invested in a girl who won't even step out to meet you.  I would insist on a meeting just for a cup of coffee at this point.  She makes no commitment by simply meeting you, even on a friendship level.  Theres no harm in it.  And if she wont come out and do that much at this point, you might want to step back and re-evaluate your level of emotional involvement with her. 

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marie.


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/25/2007 4:36:49 AM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

marieToo
Im sorry if my words hit home for you somehow and touched a very obviously sore spot


please dont try to imply this has ever happened to me for it has not -never been in a cheat/cheater relationship. 
I just believe strongly in honesty and sticking to one's word  that's all. I  dont accept excuses for not being honest especialy with a spouse- doesnt matter if they get along- hate each other- love each other-only stay together for the children ( worst possible excuse IMO) or ANY other circumstances there may be.

As I mentioned before I have always enjoyed your posts/opinions
and I'm sure there will  be many more to come.

have a great day

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/25/2007 6:23:33 AM   
losttreasure


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CDH,

Congratulations on a well made decision... I am impressed, and that doesn't happen often.  

I would like to offer an opinion for your consideration.  So many believe (and it appears that you may, as well) that it is vital for someone to have time between relationships.  I, however, do not wholeheartedly subscribe to this belief.  I think there are limited circumstances where it's appropriate, but otherwise it's not really necessary.

I would not wish to begin a relationship with someone who had very recently suffered an emotional rejection, but the reason for my reluctance would be the increased chance of incompatibility in immediate goals.  My primary goal being the establishment of compatibility and genuine interest, whereas the suffering person's goal would likely be seeking reassurance that they are still desirable.

However, in a situation where someone has not been rejected... where instead, they were the one rejecting the relationship, or it had simply dissolved, I see no reason to avoid them.

The idea that a person must somehow get used to being alone before they can move on is silly.  That's like saying, "I've just eaten a fantastic cookie, but it's gone.  Now I must wait until I'm okay with not having another cookie before I even think about reaching back into the cookie jar."

I guess what I'm saying here is that there is nothing wrong with working toward shifting her interest toward you and away from the married man.  In fact, my only concern would be that she hasn't already lost interest in him... though that, in itself, might be an indication of how seriously she takes her commitment to someone she devotes herself to.  To be honest though, it simply sounds as if the possibility of being with you has not overcome the reality of being with him.

Think of it in terms of behavioral modification.  Imagine someone who has a bad habit...this person enjoys this habit, but they know it is bad.  They could simply find the strength to break it, or they could replace it with a new habit... one that is more rewarding.

Just some food for thought.

Best Wishes,
Treasure


< Message edited by losttreasure -- 1/25/2007 6:25:13 AM >


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(in reply to CerebralDomHfx)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? - 1/25/2007 7:39:35 AM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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I've deleted this because I feel it's quite rude to the OP to continue an irrelevant argument on his thread.


< Message edited by marieToo -- 1/25/2007 7:42:17 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 38
People in "need" - 1/25/2007 8:39:26 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CerebralDomHfx

How much help is too much?




When it feels like it's too much. When it's subtracting from you and there is no end in sight to the pattern. I stopped trying to "help" people quite some time ago when I realized many who are stuck in their own tarpits are nothing more than energy vampires. They use distress and insecurity as a form of manipulation, willingly attracting men (or women) who cannot help but rise to the occasion of someone in need. While there is a time and place to offer your help, do avoid being the would-be White Knight for those who are a little too comfortable in their own chaos. Let them prove their earnest desire for help by using that energy always to move to you. If they lack the courage or will to do so, carry on and learn the grace of indifference to what you cannot have.

(in reply to CerebralDomHfx)
Profile   Post #: 39
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