Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (Full Version)

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CerebralDomHfx -> Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:09:37 PM)

Hello all, I've found myself in an interesting situation that's causing some turmoil, and I'd appreciate advice. Sometimes input from a different perspective is all I need to see clearly.

I'll try and keep this as concise as possible, but there is a fair amount of detail I have to explain before I can ask the question properly.  Thanks to all who stick in for the duration of this message.

THE HISTORY:

About four months ago, I was approached online by a sub who was just awakening to her submissive side, and eager to explore it in a safe chat/email manner. She's in her late 20's and had been in vanilla relationships all her life, and was single but dating. She was confused and a little afraid of this new side of her personality that she was discovering, as it goes against almost everything she's been raised to be, but she keeps having stronger and stronger cravings and desires for it, to the point where she thinks about it nearly all the time.

I could tell from day one that she would take some time to open up and feel safe talking to someone, anyone. I knew her to be a bit of a long term project, but she also seemed to be of quality, and I'm a very selective and patient man. I'm looking for a quality sub to spend the rest of my life with (if it so works out that way) so I don't shy away from a bit of a challenge.

Over the weeks we chatted and emailed each other on a regular basis. We found we had a lot in common, and that we really got along quite well. Although we kept things online, a strong bond was starting to grow between us. We both were slowly opening up to each other, and we were both learning a lot about her personality, her desires, and why she thought she was right for this lifestyle.

The weeks turned to months, and the bond continued to grow. I demand complete openness from anyone I wish to be intimate with (because how can you be intimate without being open with someone?), and I return the same favour. She was sharing personal details from her life with me that she had never told anyone before, and she was slowly gaining strength from this.

I'm not a fan of the online world; I much prefer to live in the real world, so after a couple months of chatting I knew she felt comfortable enough with me, so I slowly started mentioning that we should meet and see how we get along in person. These requests were always politely deflected. I'm a smart guy, so I start to wonder if I'm physically what she's looking for, or if she just desires a chat buddy; She assures me that she's very attracted to me, she wants a man, and I believe her - yet still we can't seem to arrange a coffee meet, and I'm far from a pushy or scary guy to meet. :-) Usually I have no problems getting a girl to meet me for a drink after a few chats.

I start sensing something is wrong, and I started getting more pointed about it. We have been enjoying a very intimate and open relationship (albeit online) and I knew she was hiding something from me. I gently, but intentionally turned up the pressure on this secret that she was keeping, because it was obviously something big, and it was affecting the frank, open discussions that we were having. She would get rather emotional when I got close to this topic, but I kept working on her and it, making her feel safe, not being too pushy, but still being insistent that if she wanted this level of openness with me, she had to embrace it fully, and not hold back a few dark secrets. I hid nothing from her, and she had made so much progress opening up to me that I didn't want her to stop now - and I was also puzzled/frustrated as to why she wouldn't meet with me.

Anyway, you can all probably guess why.. :-) I had my suspicions from a while ago, and they were confirmed to some degree.

In a long, and emotionally draining series of chats, emails, and a phone call, she confessed to me her darkest secret - One she's never told anyone else. She's been seeing a married man for the last two years, and not a single family member or friend knows about this. I'm person #3 on the planet who knows about this (Her, Him, and Me).

My reactions were surprising to her - I didn't reject her and run from her - Why would I? I told her from the beginning that being completely open and honest with someone means that you share the good and bad parts of yourself. I made it clear that I thought this was a bad part, as I didn't believe in cheating, lying, etc.. all the crap that goes along with an affair, but I still embraced her for opening up and talking to me. I couldn't believe she had kept this bottled up inside from everyone for two whole years. I had worked so hard with her to give her the strength to trust someone with these dark secrets, I wasn't about to let that all come crumbling down for her by rejecting her now.

She's completely unhappy in this situation, and wracked with guilt over what she's doing, but she is unable to help herself. She is in love with this man, and he loves her back. He's also in love with his wife, and won't leave his wife for his Mistress. She needs a full time lover, and he's at best a part-time one, because he has his own family that needs him. She's dated around, she's tried to fall out of love, but no one keeps her interest, and she can't seem to let him go. She's now doubly-binded to him because she knows he loves her, and if she left him, it would devastate him – she doesn’t want to hurt him this way.

Logically, there are so many reasons why this won't work between them - He's got a family, she wants one, and he'll be reluctant to start a new one. She doesn't put up with cheating, but he's a cheater - I'm sure he'll do it again. He's also hopelessly vanilla, and she's craving some serious kinky sub play.

She tells me she wishes life were simpler, that she wasn't involved with this man, so she could be with me, because she knows we could go far.

Normally this would be the point where I'd say "Hey, take some time to figure it out, and get back to me once you’ve moved on" but it's not so simple. Other than this very large obstacle, I'm simply amazed at the strength of the connection we have, and how similar we seem to be. This is serious "wow, you really exist" type of stuff. If we don't manage to chat for a few days due to work pressures, we both feel the void. I"ve spent years looking for a woman like this, and I wonder if that's causing me to hold on a little too tightly..

Furthermore, I also believe that if I were to step up and compete with this other man, I would win. I can provide her with the time and attention and depth of connection that he simply can't. He's here because he aggressively approached her during a very vulnerable point in her life, and she got hooked before she knew it.

I'm not sure I want to directly compete for two main reasons:

1) I believe that people need time to themselves between relationships to heal and learn before they can move on.

2) I can handle her split heart for now, but once I knew I had enough of a hold on her heart, I wouldn't allow her to be with him anymore. She'd have to choose, and I know that's a messy state to be in. I don’t want to do it to her.


THE QUESTION:


Okay, that's the background to help you understand what I'm going to ask. Hopefully you’re still with me.

My question is based on how much guidance and support I should be giving this girl at this time. As far as I'm concerned, she should talk with this man, tell him how miserable she is because of their circumstance, and give him an ultimatum of his wife or her. I've told her that, and she agrees it makes sense, but won't do it. Of course she knows that will end with her being discarded, and I think she fears that to the extent that she rather just bury her head in work and ignore her misery.

I'm not sure if she currently has the strength of character to end this. I don't think it should be up to someone else to end it for her, as that's just removing her from doing the responsible thing. I want her to face her fears, and gain strength from that.

She is a sub, and it's her sub tendencies that have her bonded to this man even though all logic says it's a bad thing. I hate seeing another sub getting stuck with the wrong man.

I don't want to be her safety net - I don't want to provide a safe relationship for her to jump into directly from this bad one. I want her to grow up and do it on her own. I feel that any normal person should be required to do this, but I'm less sure about a sub in her state of awakening.

Yet at the same time, I have a strong paternal drive, and I feel that my role here is one of protector, and guide. She needs me. I think I am considering this differently because of the D/s aspect of our personalities.

Should I just back off, take our relationship down a few notches and let her work this out for herself? I'm reluctant to totally end it, because I know she'll feel abandoned and hurt for this, and it may set her back years. She needs a friend and confidant at this period, and I think I should remain that for the time being. How active I am is part of the question.

I know she will eventually end it. I know plenty of subs in their 40's who did it, though it took most of them 10 years of their life and 2 kids before they finally built up the strength to end it and set out on their own. If you were someone like this, would you have wanted someone to help you and save you years of turmoil with the wrong man, or would you not want to change a thing, believing every year spent in the wrong relationship made you more of who you are? Could someone have helped you, without sapping your strength that you eventually found?


Tough questions, but thank you for hanging in here to read it all. Any well thought answers will be appreciated.




Celeste43 -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:17:31 PM)

You aren't objective here. You want something out of this situation, her. Why not suggest to her that she goes for professional help. Submissive doesn't mean doormat and she appears to have major self esteem issues.

In the meantime, tell her you need to meet just for coffee in order for the two of you to see if there's any chemistry. That you need to know this now so if there isn't you'll still be her friend but you'll start looking elsewhere to find a girlfriend/sub. Make it clear that you won't wait forever. Because as long as you're waiting, she can take her time looking for a perfect solution which does not exist of course.

As far as needing someone else to get the courage to leave, very common in abused spouses. Until they get support from someone else they don't think they're worth anything. Does it guarantee that she'll switch her affections from him to you, no but there is no guarantee in life anyway. Myself, I'd want more aggressive actions from you but you know her better.



onestandingstill -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:22:05 PM)





I say indeed you are a friend and if you want to help her do that.
I also say even if you win her she's with a married man who's cheating thus she's very likely to cheat on you IMO.
I would be her friend, but back up on dating her till she gets her life straight and is free to choose you without all those other folk as baggage she carries.
Cock fights for property are never easy and are full of drama.
suzanne





Lorelei115 -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:25:51 PM)

Yikes. It sounds like you have a difficult situation on your hands. You obviously care a lot for her, and I think that is the best support you can give.

My advice would be to be her friend and confidante, be there for her, but don't push her to make a decision. Especially a you vs. him decision. All that I could see happening there is that she transfers an unhealthy relationship from him to you. She needs to be able to stand strong on her own, and she is the only person that can do that. If you have given her your advice and she has chosen not to take it, really that is all you can do. It might seem tempting to lure her away but in the end I don't think it would be the best thing for either of you.

This is very poignant to me because I too have been in love with a married man. It was the worst time in my life and only a cataclysm ended it. I still feel miserable and guilty when I look back on that time. Would I have wanted someone to save me from it? It might have been easier. But I don't think I would have learned the lessons from it that I needed to learn, and it would have happened again in the future.



whisperedsighs -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:41:02 PM)

I would be a friend, but would back off any other relationship with this woman.  All that will come of her relationship with this man is drama.  If given the opportunity, if she decides to leave this man, she will indeed be rebounding right into you.  You are right she needs to decide that this relationship with this man is not for her.  She is the only one that can realize this.  If he were truely in love with her, he would not be in this relationship with her, stringing her along.  If she ever does leave this man, it would be best if she not be in a relationship with someone else right away.  IMO she should spend some time on her own discovering who she is, and not who she is in someone else's eyes. 

I agree with Celeste, she would be best served seeing a counselor.  You may care for this woman, but a counselor can address issues you can't if you have other interests. 

My final opinion......Be a friend, not a lover.  She needs a friend.  



RedSavageSlave -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:41:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CerebralDomHfx

I'm not sure if she currently has the strength of character to end this. I don't think it should be up to someone else to end it for her, as that's just removing her from doing the responsible thing. I want her to face her fears, and gain strength from that.

This may be what you want..but is it what she wants? That is the real question.

Should I just back off, take our relationship down a few notches and let her work this out for herself? I'm reluctant to totally end it, because I know she'll feel abandoned and hurt for this, and it may set her back years. She needs a friend and confidant at this period, and I think I should remain that for the time being. How active I am is part of the question.

You are not responsible for her actions.She is. You cannot be responsible for her emotions. She should be. If you want to enable this situation, continue doing what you are doing. Let her have her cake and eat it too. <shrug> If you want her to be totally yours and this is what she wants as well, you are right. She needs to grow up and take responsibility for ending the current relationship. If she wont do it, you have your answer as to who is more important to her. She is not ready to be in a relationship with you in that case.

I know she will eventually end it. I know plenty of subs in their 40's who did it, though it took most of them 10 years of their life and 2 kids before they finally built up the strength to end it and set out on their own. If you were someone like this, would you have wanted someone to help you and save you years of turmoil with the wrong man, or would you not want to change a thing, believing every year spent in the wrong relationship made you more of who you are? Could someone have helped you, without sapping your strength that you eventually found?

I have had people who "rescued" me from previous bad relationships. The only problem with a "rescuer" is that they dont generally know what to do once the rescued no longer needs that kind of help. If she sees you simply as the one who saved her, you may find there is not really much to keep you going once this crisis is over.




QuietlySeeking -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:46:53 PM)

I don't mean to sound like the Big Bad Wolf, but have you considered how this will affect you?

I've also played Sir Galahad a few too many times and wound up with a gaping hole where my heart used to be and another "friend".  At some point, you need to take care of yourself.  I'm not saying that point is now...but you do have a responsibility to yourself first.

Investing emotions and time into someone who is committed (by her own admission) to someone else is not a way to a healthy happy life...IMHO. I've been in your situation and I simply told her that I could no longer be anything more than her friend, while I respected her decision to stay with the person to whom she had committed herself, that I could not continue to be a secondary male in her life when she was acting as if I were her Dominant.  

BTW, that submissive and I remained friends for the last two years...AFTER our Dom/sub relationship ended.  She respects me a great deal more today because I didn't try to hold on...



domiguy -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 5:56:40 PM)

You are screwed! (Could you water that down a bit) Boy, you sure seem to be screwed.  You demand honesty in a relationship but it takes months for some online chick to tell you that she is seeing a married guy. "I didn't reject her and run from her."  Why not?  She won't meet...she is a confirmed liar....Trust ol' Domiguy on this one..."This is the least of your worries."  If I new someone for "months" and they had a dark secret that they needed to "Confess" to me... it better be something HUGE!...like "Uh...Domiguy...I have this craving...And I've never told a soul...except you!....err...umm.. every now and then and I eat babies."  See That is a Major Dark Secret...

Shit,any chick in North America can bang some married guy and many have(No Big Deal!)...Fuck! Those guys(married ones) will "fuck" anything!  And they all lie...none of them leave their wives! And NONE....let me repeat NONE of them are devastated when their side slit moves on....They always have the fall back plan of their marriage that they put above their part time pussy to begin with! (Or maybe she is ashamed because her vagina is on her forehead. I understand this is a medical affliction  found all too common in my "sisters" from up yonder) Anywhoo you are wasting your time!

If your profile is accurate...kick her to the curb!  She is a liar...probably digs, no loves, the drama of her current relationship...She knows you are available...but in a match with her current guy...you can't win 'cuz you've already lost...Get out she's probably lying anyways about the relationship..just doesn't have the nerve to tell you she is incredibly overwieght.  Move on!..Leave her alone....Find some of that real "Canadian Gash"...it's the reason people leave the states to visit your country..Or is it the walleye fishing?...Never mind...but move on son.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.



CerebralDomHfx -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 7:50:47 PM)

Thanks for the responses so far. I'll give my replies to the replies here..

Celeste43 - I know I'm not objective here, and I make this quite clear to her.. I also try to slant the advice against myself to try and keep it from being too much in my interests. I've considered the coffee meet to see for sure if there could be more, and I haven't decided yet if I want to. It could make things worse if we do hit it off fantastically... and it may be a step in the direction of me starting to see her, and then fighting for her. I'm going to wait a bit and see what develops.  At this stage, I'm not looking for guarantees that she'll switch affections - I'd be happy to leave her in a better state than I found her.

onestandingstill - Hmm, she's not really cheating tho, he is. He's the one in love with someone, and breaking that trust. She has no bond with the wife. It's a technicality, but it is a difference.  He doesn't expect her to be exclusive to him, but she wants to be, so it's a bit of a wash for her. Personally, I'd never fool around with someone who was married, but I know this isn’t a common feeling.

Lorelei115 - I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience with the married man - I may be able to learn from it. Feel free to message me directly here if you don't want to share it with everyone. I'd appreciate it.

whisperedsighs - Yes, you're outlining the path that I'm most likely to take. I agree about the counselor, but that's a hard thing to convince someone to do.. I'll see what ground I can make with her.

RedSavageSlave - Hmm, she wants to be stronger, she wants to be able to lose the guilt and serve for pleasure.. I think she does want it. And I'm very aware that I can make this worse by insulating her - a 'cake and eat it too' type of scenario. It's good to remind me of this fact tho. And I'm also aware that the rescuer is often discarded. I call it the 'towel syndrome’. The 'towel' is the one who soaks up the pain and misery and helps clean the person up, but once you're dry, you don't need the wet towel. :-) I don't wish to be a towel in this stage, but I may opt for it if there is no other option. I think I’m strong enough to help return one more lost woman to the right path.

QuietlySeeking - Ah yes, this will hurt me, it has hurt me, it does hurt me. The pain is part of the emotional turmoil I face, and it's why I posted here. I'm strong, I can take a fair amount of this, but I do watch it very carefully and back away every now and then to make sure I don't get in too deep. I'm far from a pushover in this regard.. ultimately I must protect myself, because I won't sacrifice myself for someone who's unwilling/unable to return the gesture.

domiguy - Ha, the voice of reason. :-) Yes, I’m screwed, but it's not so simple - She's not really lying to me, I don't expect someone to tell all up front - it takes time and trust before the deepest secrets are reveled. For her, being the other woman is such a despicable thing that she doesn't even want to think about it. But yes, I'm aware that there are plenty of fish in the sea… tho it is a little bit harder to find an appropriate sub in my location – The city isn’t big enough to sport a large Alt crowd.

Thanks again for everyone's responses.. this is all great feedback for me to consider. Hopefully there will be more.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 8:16:02 PM)

I sat here thinking a long time on how best to answer you.First off how much time do you want to devote to this wounded woman? Could your time be better spent on a more viable submissive? How long will you feel like being the Knight In Shining Armor?Will your being there for her to guide etc really inspire her to drop the drama that is her life or encourage her to suck you dry?Or even say you stay around until you tire of it all and then leave and then possibly she feels double abandoned, will this create more emotional trama to her?You have to figure out  wether you being in this situation with her will have a positive or a negative effect on YOU and HER....I simply see very little win on either side of this slash..Tempting



SimplyMichael -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 8:22:11 PM)

The only woman who has ever worn my collar was married, I would never ever ever do ANYTHING like that again.

The woman only wants and values things she can't "have".  She may not see the game she is playing but she is playing one.  I don't recomend getting her but letting her go, saying "by" is the best way to get her to come to you.  However, the minute you embrace her she will be on the way out.

Move on.



DominaSmartass -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 8:32:02 PM)

Sadly, I must agree wholeheartedly with domiguy. I wish this were not the case (no offense to domiguy) but my gut feeling tells me it's so. I've had way too many close encounters with people I've met online who seem to be "the one" that I've been looking for and turn out to be lying bastards.  No matter how long you talk online or on the phone, until you meet and start sharing real life experiences with one another, your image of who the other person is more closely resembles what you have pieced together from limited information mixed with your own anticipation of who they are, than anything in reality.  Another thing is, it sounds like you are really infatuated with her. Maybe even love her. And I'm telling you buddy, you cannot win in this situation with emotions like that.  The second you start thinking this might be the one that's worth risking it all for, fighting for, etc., ESPECIALLY before you've even met in person, that's the second you're really screwed.  So what do I suggest? Number one, tell her that you want to continue to be friends and be there for her but you refuse to do that if you cannot actually meet.  Make her decide if having you in her life is valuable enough to actually HAVE you in her life. See what I mean? If you are some sort of convenient chat buddy then you'll find out right away. If you mean enough that she wants to make you "real" then she'll agree to meet you for a coffee.   Don't be overly eager to get phyisical in any way with her either, keep your space unless she approaches you and wants a hug or whatever.  People, men and women alike with lie, manipulate, and play each other just because they can and sometimes even without intending to but just because it's their M.O.  Be careful with your heart, like someone already said, you need to remember that you will have to live with the pain of whatever happens when the chips fall wherever it is that they may. Best of luck to you. 



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 8:37:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CerebralDomHfx
 but she is unable to help herself.

That's really the only thing you needed in this entire post.

Until you both realize that this is bullshit and she decides to change her own life, nothing will change.

As long as both/either of you continue to accept this bullshit as OK, then the drama and irresponsibility will continue.

Do you really want a sub who considers herself helpless and chooses to do nothing but lie to you about it for months? And then of course plays on your desire to "help her" by letting you feel all knightly about prying it away from her. 

I don't think either of you consciously realize the ridiculous game you are playing.  That doesn't change the face that it is a game and you are both playing it.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/22/2007 8:40:02 PM)

Unless she has transfered authority to you to make these kinds of decisions for her, you can't do anything more than offer advice. Obviously, if she's unhappy, it's up to her to choose to get out of the situation or continue to be unhappy. You then base your reactions upon her actions. You can suggest she give him an ultimatum, but you can't make her do it. You can give her an ultimatum, but know that most of the time, the answer is "no" simply because ultimatums are designed to manipulate.

In the end: she's free to make the decisions that she does, and she has to deal with those consequences. You are free to make the decisions you do and you have to deal with those conseqences. Remember two things: 1) If you are unhappy, you'll have to change something. You will not get different results doing the same things over and over. 2) It's ok to love her yet still realise that the relationship with her is not healthy for you. You are allowed to love her, yet step away.

Master Fire



swtnsparkling -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 3:29:25 AM)

quote:

SimplyMichael
The woman only wants and values things she can't "have".  She may not see the game she is playing but she is playing one.  I don't recomend getting her but letting her go, saying "by" is the best way to get her to come to you.  However, the minute you embrace her she will be on the way out.



very well put IMO



LeatherBentOne -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 4:55:40 AM)

OP:

Great responses here.  Sometimes, this forum blows me away and I hope you institute some suggestions.  I wish the best for both of you.



Lashra -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 5:05:48 AM)

This woman is still young and from the sound of it not very mature. From what you've said she hasn't had a lot of relationships and therefore probably doesn't have the experiences to make sound decisions regarding them.

In short I can't feel sorry for her or the man she's seeing. He wants his cake and eat it too, she wants that which is unobtainable. One thing she is learning is how to cheat on her partner, that is NOT a good thing. Its a no win situation.

My best advice is be her friend but do not become her therapist. Or you will find yourself running to her "rescue" everytime you turn around. Let her know that you are still looking for a submissive in which to spend your life with.

Good luck,
~Lashra



feralcat -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 5:46:39 AM)

I have to agree with Domiguy on most of his points.

Many years ago,been there done that married man thing. I was newly separated ,he was bright,challenging,stirred my intellect,great to talk to.Yep,knew he was married,after all we were just friends,but like the moth to the flame,got sucked in.It was when I started pushing for him to decide what he wanted to do with his life (not as much " leave her for me ",but if you are unhappy why stay and make the whole family unhappy) that my view of him shifted. I saw him for what he was,a manipulative,scared man...not a strong character at all. In fact I learned that I was the stronger one. ;-) less fearful of life,of who I am ,what I could be.....great lesson there.

And I backed away,painful ,very painful,but like Lorelei I learned a good lesson-one I will NOT forget.

As for the guy being "crushed and hurt " if she leaves,lol,no way...my fella ,the one that was so so close to me ,"my soulmate" he said...lol..  2 weeks later he had a new chick. The married guys only want a good time charlie,sure they look all concerned about your life,but only from afar. Gets old quick hearing, " I wish I could be there for you ,but...".

Therapy for her,you stay cordial; ,but move on. See where she is after a year or so of leaving him.Let her get clarity .

Being a savior is not all it is cracked up to be and being paternal is knowing when it is time to let go, let them fall down and learn to pick THEMSELVES up.


Good luck with whatever you do.

Feral



dvart -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 7:14:23 AM)

But aren't you getting a bit ahead of yourself here ?

You haven't even met for a coffee.

Lots of things might happen when you do like no chemistry at all or instant overpowering attraction. How will you know until you have tried it? But like others have suggested, I would recommend working out your person limits and sticking to them.

There is a certain kind of pain resulting from your situation. It is quite unreal because you haven't met and there is a destructive uncertainty. Meeting her will produce a kind of resolution, a lancing of the boil if you like. I think that even if the conclusion is negative, you will feel a whole lot better. As other have said, there is a whole spectrum of relationships that are possible from friend to 24/7. No reason to jump in feet first just for a coffee.



Devilslilsister -> RE: Guiding a New Sub - How much help is too much? (1/23/2007 7:57:54 AM)

i say make it simple.  Have her get in contact with the wife and once those two butt heads - things will work out.  



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