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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/24/2007 4:24:01 PM   
billys1


Posts: 3
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline 		When in the high holly hell are we going to treat all human beings alike. I MEAN WHO REALLY GIVES A FLYING LEAP OR WHATEVER WHAT A PERSONS ORIENTAION IS. Its not like we choose it or even want what it is. Christ gave u 2 laws. 2.... 1. Love God; 2. Love each other as we would love God and ourselves. Thats it folks. Who really cares if someone in the UK or the USA or Japan or (pick a place) is gay, lesbiab bi str8 or God knows what else people care to label each other. i know i sure don't. be a good citizen, raise your kids in a loving manner and that is that. What else counts? i know i'll get a lot of flack from this but again, who cares.
REMEMBER THE WORDS---'LOVE, LOVE, LOVE'

billys1



quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

 
quote:

ORIGINAL sinergy
p.s. The problem I have with the whole thing is that making an exception for Catholics because of their deeply held beliefs denigrates the deeply held beliefs of gay couples who want to have children


Surely not having children is part of what it means to be gay. isn't it ?

The quote isn't even true..What approval of the exemption does  is juxtapose two different belief systems which may, being charitable, which I'm not, be considered of equal validity !

To spell out what I mean, the only legal consideration I would award homosexuals is that their activities be not considerd illegal or subject to punishment of any kind. Any adult, I mean age related, relationship arrangements should be for them to decide as they see fit.
Am I wicked ?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/24/2007 4:25:18 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Surely not having children is part of what it means to be gay. isn't it ?



If this were true, there would not be an issue over gay people wanting to adopt children, no?

From my understanding, both in research and having numerous gay friends, being homosexual means that a person is sexually aroused by the same gender.  A gay woman can go to a sperm bank with a turkey baster, and have a kid.  A gay man does not have the plumbing for this to be possible, so the only choice involves adoption.

Sinergy

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/24/2007 8:24:15 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		The Catholic Church's claims that it's concerned about the well-being of children might ring a bit truer if they hadn't spent the past few decades reshuffling and covering for predator priests.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 1:04:59 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

To spell out what I mean, the only legal consideration I would award homosexuals is that their activities be not considerd illegal or subject to punishment of any kind. Any adult, I mean age related, relationship arrangements should be for them to decide as they see fit.
Am I wicked ?


And as a nazi, the only legal consideration I would award communists is that their existence not be considered illegal or subject to death penalty.

By whichever way we might try to determine it, (aside from our own personal preferences of course), no gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, political or philosophical system has any objective supremacy over any other Seeks; again we have the trap of assuming value distinction in the presence of difference when it comes to human beings and their doings. Therefore none should either suffer any denigration of its status by reference to any other, and none should enjoy any special consideration.

We must also in this case remember, that the only item of any importance in the scenario of adoption, is the welfare of the child. The church clearly feels it is acceptable for single lesbian woman or gay man to adopt through its agencies, since its representative on Newsnight said so. How the welfare of the child can then be assumed to become prejudiced if two lesbians or two gay men adopt, I do not see. In fact, the advantage of two parents to a child, compared to one, is constantly being pushed, so this is solely and purely about one thing, and that is homosexuality, which is no longer a criminal offence and no longer judged a psychosexual deviancy. It thus comes down to the arrogance of an established church in not wishing to back down on its position that homosexuality is wrong, stemming of course from the bible which cannot be altered or amended in any way, and thus the idea that its ideas and teachings are supreme - which of course is not an objective fact, but a matter of personal, individual conviction. I have no objection to anyone thinking and believing what they will, so long as they do not stir up trouble or provoke conflict on the basis of their personal views.

There is also a contradiction in the church of course, in that they do accept homosexuals and their sexuality within their congregations and in the case of single homosexuals, even permit them to adopt. The church must therefore decide, is homosexuality OK, or not? For it cannot be OK in some cases but not in others, given its biblical teaching. I would also challenge the church to provide evidence from Jesus in support of its stance; not from the Old Testament, and not from Paul or others steeped in Jewish culture, for if it is so vital a part of the religion then surely Jesus might have mentioned it?

E


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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 1:21:42 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Surely not having children is part of what it means to be gay. isn't it ?


If this were true, there would not be an issue over gay people wanting to adopt children, no?


Having  and wanting, in this context are two different things

With regard to Billys1 and LOVE LOVE LOVE.....do you mean sexual activity with as many partners as possible in as short a time as possible  often in quite sordid locations, ie public toilets or  do you mean two people of the opposite sex involved with children in an aspiring relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 1:31:07 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks - you do realise, do you, that the gay men who as you say seek sex in public toilets etc, are generally those gay men who are for whatever reason, (usually societal pressure to not be themselves), married to women? A friend of mine on the police advisory group is a gay mens' health advisor too in the health service, and worked with the police to survey what was going on in this area, which is where that assertion comes from.

And as for sex with many partners in a short period; well, what do you think young heterosexuals are out doing every weekend these days? I agree its not a good thing for society, but to label this as solely a homosexual thing is plainly incorrect.

We also have to remember that there are many loving gay and lesbian relationships that stand the test of time, so your characterisation is flawed on this count too.

E

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 1:39:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL LadyEllen
Seeks; again we have the trap of assuming value distinction in the presence of difference when it comes to human beings and their doings


I hope you dont really mean this LadyE.  What about muderers then ?
It seems to me that value judgments are instinctive in human beings and as a consequence will be incorporated in statutes.

What about the FACT that reckless anal intercourse is medically dangerous, as is unprotected promiscuous heterosexual activity. Should we not make judgments about this ? 

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 1:50:24 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Seeks - you do realise, do you, that the gay men who as you say seek sex in public toilets etc, are generally those gay men who are for whatever reason, (usually societal pressure to not be themselves), married to women?

And as for sex with many partners in a short period; well, what do you think young heterosexuals are out doing every weekend these days?



Point (1) "busts" a proclaimed truth spread by the "metro trendies" that we are all tolerant of homosexual activity then, doesn't it ?
Just as the said  trendies assert that we are all multiculturalists at heart.
How little they know.

Point (2) Most young hetero men may go out with the intention of getting as much sex as possible but I have very little doubt that most FAIL. Despite what they say before a TV camera. lol


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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 3:31:58 AM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Had it been a Muslim group or Jewish group objecting to dealing with a same-sex couple, then the government would give more pause; but since it's a Christian group that doesn't want to allow same-sex couples to adopt, they are being prejudice.


That is a baseless, inflamatory and convenietly unprovable assertion. In principle, no law could not be applied with such prejucdice.

The welfare of less fortunate citizens, especially children, should not be left to the churches. If they want to augment support, fine, but the well being of children is the business of the government / people.

In Canada we recently had a landmark case where a child was adopted by his mother's lesbian partner. He now has three parents, two mums and a dad. And yes, the father is still very active in the child's life. Go Canada!

Z.


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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 3:58:53 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Had it been a Muslim group or Jewish group objecting to dealing with a same-sex couple, then the government would give more pause; but since it's a Christian group that doesn't want to allow same-sex couples to adopt, they are being prejudice.


That is a baseless, inflamatory and convenietly unprovable assertion. In principle, no law could not be applied with such prejucdice.


That may be true where you are, however here whilst "positive-discrimination" is not technically legal here in the UK, it sure gets a lot of blind eyes turned towards it. Christian pressure groups here are quite small and on the whole pretty silent. Other pressure groups based on religous grounds are larger and more vocal. Guess which would be taken notice of when it comes to wanting to count on votes for the next election.

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 5:07:03 AM   
aviinterra


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quote:

If this were true, there would not be an issue over gay people wanting to adopt children, no?


Please do not hate me for saying this but...well...I have to ask- WHY do 2 gay men want to adopt? I am yet to see a man that is 'maternal'. I think I can understand 2 lesbians as it might be the maternal instincts all women have, but still, if they are attracted to the same sex, by natural definition, that excludes them from ever having children- hence, would not nature itself supress the want for an unmentionable? Gay people are healthy and capable of having their own on the whole, why should their argument suddenly be as strong as a woman's who lost her plumbing to cancer? Just because they do not feel like committing the act in the way and for the very purpose it even exists? How are two gay men going to explain to a girl what she is going through when she gets her period? Or a boy who will think maybe there is something wrong with him when he gets aroused by a woman and not a man? How are these unmentionables ever going to learn how interact with hetero men and women if they are left without a guiding figure for half the world's population? I think this is what the Church and some other groups are trying to say, even if it is coming out incorrectly and tinted with hate- and I have to agree with them somewhat. Go have hetero sex and have an unmentionable if you want one that badly- there are plenty of willing 'partners', but if you can't stomach even that, how are you going to deal with a lifetime of issues that come after an adoption? 

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 5:08:37 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		LadyEllen, you obviously did not read my reply which explained the 'contradiction'.
An unmarried heterosexual couple would have just as hard time adopting from a Catholic Organization.

"Bishop John Cunningham of Galloway said the new law undervalues “the unique contribution that a stable married couple can make to the upbringing of children and they have grave reservations concerning the ability of same sex-couples or unmarried heterosexual couples, however loving they might be, to provide the stability and the role models that a married couple can."

It is the sex without the benefit of a Catholic marriage thing...

If two couples are equal except in regards to monetary worth , would the wealthier couple be given a baby to adopt first? I started wondering how big a factor money plays into this scenario.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 5:19:36 AM   
Wantachance


Posts: 4
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		I am totally in agreement that it is totally unfair to have excemption upon who can adopt children.  So many children need loving homes for their physical and emotional development.  For the Catholic Church to act this way is totally going against the "God" the profess to follow.  God is love, he doesnt discriminate against, color, religion, or sexual orentation, therefore love is color and gender blind.  A gay/lesbian couple can love children and raise them to be upstading citizens just as well as any man/woman couple can, it is the attitude a family has, not what the sexual orentation the parents have.  Time for the Pope to begin reading the bible and understanding how God teaches a little better, not with bigotry, but with LOVE.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 6:15:31 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wantachance
God is love, he doesnt discriminate against, color, religion, or sexual orentation, therefore love is color and gender blind.  A gay/lesbian couple can love children and raise them to be upstading citizens just as well as any man/woman couple can, it is the attitude a family has, not what the sexual orentation the parents have.  Time for the Pope to begin reading the bible and understanding how God teaches a little better, not with bigotry, but with LOVE.


I ask you to consider the origins of the word sodomy.

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:29:03 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL aviinterra
Please do not hate me for saying this but...well...I have to ask- WHY do 2 gay men want to adopt? I am yet to see a man that is 'maternal'.


Funnily enough despite everything I have said and hold to be true, I do not think that the last sentence  is true. Odd ennit ?

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RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:32:58 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oopster

It's prejudice plain and simple though.  Why don't they want gay couples adopting?  They haven't said why, the implication is that those children will grow up being gay, and the church wouldn't want that, but you can't direct someone's sexuality, and most gay people I know, came out of the "union" of a hetersexual relationship.

If the Catholic church can discriminate against gays, lesbians and transgendered people, then I can discriminate against Catholics, because of my deeply held beliefs too, but prejudice is prejudice plain and simple.


Oopster, they have said why. They argue it is against catholic teaching.

These people are from a bygone age where dogma means more than placing a kid within the home of two loving parents (just because they're same sex). It's a shame I won't live to see the end of organised religion in England but I'll give it 200 years and it'll be finished.



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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:41:14 PM   
SlaveAkasha


Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

quote:

If this were true, there would not be an issue over gay people wanting to adopt children, no?


Please do not hate me for saying this but...well...I have to ask- WHY do 2 gay men want to adopt? I am yet to see a man that is 'maternal'. I think I can understand 2 lesbians as it might be the maternal instincts all women have, but still, if they are attracted to the same sex, by natural definition, that excludes them from ever having children- hence, would not nature itself supress the want for an unmentionable? Gay people are healthy and capable of having their own on the whole, why should their argument suddenly be as strong as a woman's who lost her plumbing to cancer? Just because they do not feel like committing the act in the way and for the very purpose it even exists? How are two gay men going to explain to a girl what she is going through when she gets her period? Or a boy who will think maybe there is something wrong with him when he gets aroused by a woman and not a man? How are these unmentionables ever going to learn how interact with hetero men and women if they are left without a guiding figure for half the world's population? I think this is what the Church and some other groups are trying to say, even if it is coming out incorrectly and tinted with hate- and I have to agree with them somewhat. Go have hetero sex and have an unmentionable if you want one that badly- there are plenty of willing 'partners', but if you can't stomach even that, how are you going to deal with a lifetime of issues that come after an adoption? 


Just in case you didn't know it.. there are plenty of lesbians that have fertility problems as much as there are straight ones.  Also, I think a lot of ppl look at it as why bring another baby into this world, when there are so many that need good homes?  There aren't nearly enough straight couples adopting children in this world..so to open it up so that same sex couples could adopt would be a wonderful way to help give these children a family.
 
Saying that two of the same sex couldn't take care of a child..is saying that a straight single person couldn't either.  If that is your view.. how then can a widow raise her son...or a single father raise her daughter?
 
My partner and I used artificial means to try and have a baby.  Had we been able to adopt legally, we would have used that option also.  Being with a woman didn't take my maternal desires away at all.  I have wanted to be a mom as long as I can remember.  I know gay men that make wonderful fathers.. probably better ones that a lot of the straight ones I have been unlucky enough to also know.
 
I have as much love to give as anyone else...and so do so many of those "sinful" couples everyone is busy trying to keep away from kids.  Why shouldn't we be allowed to share that love with someone that doesn't have it, and probably never thought they would?
 
I guess as much as I try to wrap my mind around it..this is one thing I cannot understand and have given up trying.  If as much energy went into solving real problems in this world as what goes into making sure gay people don't get too many rights....the world would be a hell of a lot better place.
 
Kasha

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:44:06 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		At a time when religious based activity and intervention  in the UK is increasing exponentially, due to the consequences of immigration , we see a post of all too familiar inaccuracy !!

NB this is not a response to Slave Akasha's post, just to be clear .

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/25/2007 2:51:05 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:49:28 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		In English please seeks.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and ... - 1/25/2007 2:52:36 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks - wilful miscomprehension does you little benefit you know? It doesnt prove any point to pick through what others post for what are inevitable omissions given that this is an online forum where we are typing off the cuff and not a masters thesis over which we have time to contemplate.

I understood NG to have said that he looks forward to the end of organised religion having any influence over our national life in the sense that Christianity does now by way of its incorporation into the state. This understanding being correct, I agree.

That is of course not to say that religion itself will disappear, and I fully expect it to remain but in its diverse expressions in the UK today. Only that it should not have any greater value than any other view, unless it happens to achieve electoral success of course.
E


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Profile   Post #: 40
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