Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church

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LadyEllen -> Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/23/2007 3:16:54 PM)
This is just in the news today, though the greater part of it has been bubbling along for a week or so now. Its to do with new UK legislation that will make it illegal to discriminate against gay men and lesbian women (and transgender people, though we're rarely mentioned), in the supply of goods and services. Until this legislation, it is perfectly legal for a supplier to say "I dont do business with gays / lesbians". Last week we had demos outside Parliament, of hotel owners protesting their freedom to discriminate on religious grounds, against gay men and lesbian women and refuse accomodation. The new legislation is intended to bring LGBT rights into harmony with existing rights in relation to sex and race, and will be accompanied with new legislation in the coming months to make illegal any discrimination on the grounds of faith. The fuss today, is over adoption. The Catholic church operates adoption agencies and wants to retain the right to refuse to deal with gay/lesbian couples in placing children. Although it should be noted that in certain circumstances relating to the child's need (?), they will deal with single gay men and lesbian women in placing children. The view of the church is, that couples should be man and wife, period, and object on religious grounds to adoption through them of children to any other form of relationship. They are therefore requesting an exemption from the new law on grounds of conscience, because of their faith. They also point out, that there are many other adoption agencies who are not asking for such an exemption, so gay and lesbian couples are not going to be prevented from adopting, if they receive that exemption. The government meanwhile, has indicated that this will be the law, and that there can be no exemptions from the law - otherwise what is to prevent similar exemptions by others regarding this law, and indeed laws preventing racial and sex discrimination, or further in relation to the planned law on religious discrimination, exemptions which might impact on the church itself? Equally, in relation to other faiths that might discriminate against LGBT people - Islam for example; if the church is to receive exemption, then why not Muslims too, on the same grounds? I am somewhat torn, even as someone falling into the LGBT group myself. I'm not Christian and certainly have little but scorn and hatred for the Catholic church (not Catholics themselves though!), but still, though I insist on my rights, I dont particularly want someone else being denied theirs just to get mine. At the same time, there can be no exemptions under the law, on the basis of what amounts to "we dont like it", and since much of the widespread general prejudice against LGBT people stems from church and bible teachings, it provokes a certain schadenfreude in me to see it rejected in law. Comments anyone? E

OffTheBeatenTrak -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/23/2007 5:35:44 PM)
Strange isn't it when must religions teach understanding and tolerance, unfortunatly you cann't please every one. On this one i'd have to side with the LGBT rather than the church because (And i might be mistaked here) but the churches objections seem to be based solely on the predudice of the religion rather than any practical reason. As long as the childs needs are met, the only concern i could see is, what effects would similar predudice shown to the child by his/hers piers have in his/hers development.

LadyEllen -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 1:27:04 AM)
OTBT - I think that might turn out to be their defence in the end - its not in the childs interests according to their placing policy, to place with a gay/lesbian couple? E

meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 2:39:39 AM)
You can't have equal opportunity laws and have organisations that are exempt and create a precedence because everyone can take out a court action on that precedence. Politicians shouldn't listen to religious organisations anyway. How can you base rational and reasonable laws on superstition? However, this is the ridiculous nature of equality laws. The idea behind them are pretty much accepted by the majority of the public before they are brought in so are largely unnecessary and what they do is nothing more than curtail the freedom of conscience. Now I don't have time for people who deny someone a service because of their sexual orientation nor have I time for people who discriminate on race but by far the most effective way of dealing with such things is to win the hearts and minds of the people not make laws where people seek precedence. Give the catholic adoption agencies precedence and you give their views legitimacy, don't give them precedence and the law looks dictatorial. However, as more and more people accept equal opportunities (I hate that Stalinist phrase) and the more the catholic agencies will look bigoted and out of step and they will eventually realise they will have to change. Or they can just pack up, some other agencey will fill the vacuum.

LadyEllen -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 2:57:06 AM)
I also wonder how it will all turn out when the next law, as planned, in respect of tolerance of others' faith comes in? Then we have a situation, where a gay couple are entitled to normal service from the church adoption agency, but they must also respect the church's view on their lifestyle....suggesting that they should not apply to the agency in the first place? E

seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 3:41:27 AM)
I think the Church authorities are quite right to point out the weakness in a Law that overrides deeply held convictions. This Law is a typical error of the secular somewhat authoritarian set who at the moment seem to have so much influence which in my opinion can easily be seen to be "making things worse" It can only result in further tears in the fabric of society, especially if Muslims Hindus or Sikhs are given special exemptions. Oh he's back on that theme again. lol

oopster -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 3:57:00 AM)
It's prejudice plain and simple though. Why don't they want gay couples adopting? They haven't said why, the implication is that those children will grow up being gay, and the church wouldn't want that, but you can't direct someone's sexuality, and most gay people I know, came out of the "union" of a hetersexual relationship. If the Catholic church can discriminate against gays, lesbians and transgendered people, then I can discriminate against Catholics, because of my deeply held beliefs too, but prejudice is prejudice plain and simple.

LadyEllen -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 4:06:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I think the Church authorities are quite right to point out the weakness in a Law that overrides deeply held convictions. Thats all very well Seeks, but nazis for instance, could ask for an exemption in dealings with ethnic minorities, if exemptions are to be given in this case. There is no valid means of saying that one belief is more important than any other in this consideration. What I do observe though, is that there are special exemptions (or at least were) with regard to the sex and race discrimination acts. Where a certain job could be shown to have a special requirement as regards sex or ethnicity, then an exemption was granted. Home care staff attending elderly/disabled women for instance, are advertised for with a statement of exemption which says basically "women only". And restaurants serving ethnic minority foods, I believe the same can apply - for instance an Indian restaurant can specify for Indian staff. Is there not room in there, for the Catholic church to restrict the services of its adoption agencies to Catholics only, or something? E

LadyEllen -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 4:11:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oopster It's prejudice plain and simple though. Why don't they want gay couples adopting? They haven't said why, the implication is that those children will grow up being gay, and the church wouldn't want that, but you can't direct someone's sexuality, and most gay people I know, came out of the "union" of a hetersexual relationship. If the Catholic church can discriminate against gays, lesbians and transgendered people, then I can discriminate against Catholics, because of my deeply held beliefs too, but prejudice is prejudice plain and simple. This is where its interesting oopster. They will place children with single gay men and lesbian women, but dont want to do the same for couples. How this affects the situation if a single person then goes into a relationship I dont know, but certainly the church cannot surely expect a single person to remain single on their say so? The position is, as reported last night, that the church feels that the bible only supports heterosexual relationships as valid. And then you make another interesting comment; the religious discrimination laws will apparently follow on from these LGBT laws. So you wont be able to discriminate on the grounds of someone's religion, but you can now, just as it is perfectly legal now to say "no gays" for instance. E

aviinterra -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 4:45:40 AM)
While I am all for the right of everyone to be treated equally, I do not believe a transfer of rights from one group to another ( and this is pretty much it ) will solve anything than bring more strife. The majority in the world are religious, a minority are gay and lesbian- what if the opposite were true? We had this same thing happen here in Mass., and the Church packed up and left, leaving a space that is not yet filled ( even though several groups said- oh, well someone will just step in ), services such as food and shelter for the homeless are gone, etc. There has to be balance- just as the Catholics do not want baptised children in the hands of gay couples, neither do gays want to be forced to accept their "sin" or whatever. True freedom rests in letting a society do as it wills, without regard to somethings being fair or not, because who is to judge what is fair? There will always be minorites. A "men only" restaurant does not bother me, neither would an "Asian only", as long as I can open up my "women's only".

meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 4:47:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oopster It's prejudice plain and simple though. Why don't they want gay couples adopting? They haven't said why, the implication is that those children will grow up being gay, and the church wouldn't want that, but you can't direct someone's sexuality, and most gay people I know, came out of the "union" of a hetersexual relationship. If the Catholic church can discriminate against gays, lesbians and transgendered people, then I can discriminate against Catholics, because of my deeply held beliefs too, but prejudice is prejudice plain and simple. There will always be prejudice and you can't fight irrational religious beliefs with the law, you have to win hearts and minds. A law like this will only make Catholics feel like martyrs, far better that they become aware that they are so out of line with mainstream society they eventually have to change. It might take longer but it will be more effective in the long run. You can't legislate for behaviour, people are far too subversive and it will just encourage people to find ways round the law. Do race laws eliminate racism? No, it just makes it more subtle. Hearts and minds is the best strategy in these things and anyway, hearts and minds are usually won by the time social engineering policies are made law. The reason this issue is arising is because hearts and minds haven't been won yet. How do you prove whether someone has been rejected as a potential parent because they are gay or for some other reason? You can't but some social work kangaroo court will accuse some innocent person of a thought crime.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 7:36:19 AM)
referring to Catholics..... quote: ORIGINAL Meatcleaver far better that they become aware that they are so out of line with mainstream society I bet on this issue that statement is untrue ! In my opinion it is the trendy metropolitan "elite" who are out of touch. Discrimination of any kind should not be against the Law. It's too closely allied to freedom of choice. One thing being suggested now is that if a business doesnt have the right racial mix of employees then local authorities can discriminate, sardonic lols from me , and not offer contracts to said business. Double standards? More like mindless idealism !!! On LadyE's point about Nazi's requesting exemption, well, on being forced to submit children for adoption by Gay couples I think they should get it. On wishing to kill Gay couples I think that should be disallowed. See these things are not difficult really. Studying humanities at University seems to result in moral political and social confusion. It is just possible that students on such courses couldnt think straight to begin with and being suggestable and wishing to be trendy will believe anything LOL After implementation of anti religious discrimination Laws I await with enthusiasm a sect wishing to practice Animal Sacrifice to propitiate their particular God. I mean that most sincerely folks.

meatcleaver -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 7:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave referring to Catholics..... quote: ORIGINAL Meatcleaver far better that they become aware that they are so out of line with mainstream society I bet on this issue that statement is untrue ! In my opinion it is the trendy metropolitan "elite" who are out of touch. Discrimination of any kind should not be against the Law. It's too closely allied to freedom of choice. One thing being suggested now is that if a business doesnt have the right racial mix of employees then local authorities can discriminate, sardonic lols from me , and not offer contracts to said business. Double standards? More like mindless idealism !!! I'm agreeing with you seeks, laws like this suck and are confused and don't work in a way legislators want them to work. We have too many social engineering laws and they are all hi-jacked by interest groups. The race relations industry is just so out of hand now that factions are forming where one faction claims to be less racist than the other. I was suggesting that social evolution is the best option, win hearts and minds and only create laws for problems that can be properly defined and enforced, like parking restrictions.

kisshou -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 8:11:31 AM)
From a Catholic perspective it makes sense that a single gay or lesbian would be allowed to adopt for the same reasons they are allowed to attend mass and receive communion. The Catholic church feels the sin is in the comitting the act of homosexual sex. So a gay couple would be considered to be living in sin while a single gay person who is abstaining from sex would not. It is also considered to be living in sin if a heterosexual couple engages in sexual activity without being married in the Catholic church. this is an informational post, I personally have sexual relations with people of both genders :)

seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 8:16:01 AM)
Well it time you settled down and behaved yourself lol

seekstofasn8adom -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 8:58:16 AM)
In the short and sweet of it,these proposals against gays and lesbians are an outrage.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 9:28:17 AM)
Had it been a Muslim group or Jewish group objecting to dealing with a same-sex couple, then the government would give more pause; but since it's a Christian group that doesn't want to allow same-sex couples to adopt, they are being prejudice. Although freedom of religion works differently here in the States than it does in the U.K., when you start messing with people's religion, they get ugly. And not all religions are equal anymore. Basically, government is stepping on one group to appease another - which is what government does best when they think it will get them re-elected. If the pendulum swings the other way in 10 years and the religious types wield more power than the LGBT types, you'll see the law adjusted ... aaaaaah, politics. Personally, I think they should worry more about the type of person that is wanting to adopt to make sure they aren't a molestor or abuser, or other such low-life not fit to raise a child. There are enough man-woman couples that don't deserve children and they shouldn't get one just because they are of the "approved" orientation. Shouldn't being good parents take precedent over all other considerations?

seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 2:16:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine Had it been a Muslim group or Jewish group objecting to dealing with a same-sex couple, then the government would give more pause; but since it's a Christian group that doesn't want to allow same-sex couples to adopt, they are being prejudice. Exactly, and the funny thing is that only those who act on that premeise appear to believe that it is untrue !!!

Sinergy -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 3:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver A law like this will only make Catholics feel like martyrs, Like they dont already? Sinergy p.s. The problem I have with the whole thing is that making an exception for Catholics because of their deeply held beliefs denigrates the deeply held beliefs of gay couples who want to have children. Somebody is going to be upset no matter what the law is. The question boils down to who decides what kind of society we are going to live in, one that teaches intolerance towards people, or one that feels laws apply to everybody equally regardless of their personal beliefs.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Gay & Lesbian Couples Adopting, the new UK law and the Catholic church (1/24/2007 3:56:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL sinergy p.s. The problem I have with the whole thing is that making an exception for Catholics because of their deeply held beliefs denigrates the deeply held beliefs of gay couples who want to have children Surely not having children is part of what it means to be gay. isn't it ? The quote isn't even true..What approval of the exemption does is juxtapose two different belief systems which may, being charitable, which I'm not, be considered of equal validity ! To spell out what I mean, the only legal consideration I would award homosexuals is that their activities be not considerd illegal or subject to punishment of any kind. Any adult, I mean age related, relationship arrangements should be for them to decide as they see fit. Am I wicked ?

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