RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not?

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Bearlee -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/24/2007 9:43:26 AM)
Fast Reply: Nice thread and some wonderful posts; thank you, all. It makes me think how important it is for BOTH people in a relationship to be whole. Needy people lean on others; if one moves a bit, the needy person falls. I prefer strong, capable people and people who enjoy other strong, capable people. I am strong and capable…and for that reason, I feel I bring more into my submission than would a needy woman; just as a strong and capable (read: whole) Dominant brings more, too. I have quit using the words “I need…” and instead say “I want…” I also want a man who wants me…but doesn’t need me. There is a huge difference there… I would think another pleased to know I do not need him…but so enjoy him, that I want him with all my heart. And, I would like that for myself. b

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/24/2007 9:45:26 AM)
This is akin to what I postedo n the perfectionist thread. Most subs are insecure control freak perfectionists in which their lives have taught them that they need to be perfect for everyone else, be strong for everyone else, not show any weakness or lack of strength in any way. This becomes comically ironic when they form intimate relationships- the other person TRIES to help the sub out. The sub pushes them away at this point automatically, and then gets upset when the other person isn't trying to help them anymore. Subs gotta learn to give a little, realize that their old ways of insecurity will not serve them and relax a bit. I know subs dream of the "special one" who will take thema way and make them do that- but in reality end up falling for a jerk who knows exactly what buttons to push on a personality like this (oddly enough, as strong and secure as these people spend their whole lives attempting to appear, they usually have very obvious weak spots that they are blind to). This is essentially what happened in my partners marriage. His wife was an extremely strong, well-educated and successful woman. But what she really wanted was a strong man to take care of her and provide her a soft place of security. While my partner certainly is everything you could want a man to be- HE wasn't secure and confident enough in himself to take authority like so many subs want. And because she was so strong and successful, he didn't really even realize that's what she wanted from him, in fact she would do as I described above- NOT show her feelings and times of weakness. His wife continued to be stubborn and unable to make herself vulnerable to him to begin the process that she just got more complacent and unfulfilled. Luckily he found me and I've been on a very good compaign to raise his confidence and awareness of such things and allow his dominance to express itself. But don't always say it's the mans fault or that men are afraid of strong and secure women (although that's certainly true). It may be your own patterns which push them away

Inticed2sub -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/24/2007 1:48:17 PM)
Thank you everyone for giving me some different perspectives to this. I have a lot to think about, but that was the whole idea. :) I want to "fix" my decision making skills when it comes to allowing men into my life. In this case, I really feel like I am right on the edge of changing my life. And I want to make good, and informed choices. Before I actually choose a Dom, I want to know I am choosing him for the right reasons. I am not a patient person by nature, but I am forcing myself to be in this situation. Once again, thank you all for your insightful replies.

obis -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/24/2007 4:12:44 PM)
I2S- Sorry for the delay getting back to you, but you've gotten great comments from everyone. You sound very self-aware, and just the act of recognizing what is happening is sometimes enough to change your entire perception. In addition to what Archer said, and the idea of talk therapy as a way to get an outside opinion on things, pick up some books on body language and social behavior. Think about and make a list of the traits your bad boyfriends have had in common -- the ones who HAVE shit on you and taken advantage of your trust, they certainly have signs that give away their abusive or manipulative personalities. At some point you mistook those things as signs of strength, which is very common to submissives of both sexes. One of the most insightful things I ever learned from one of my mentors was the idea of cosmetic versus structural attributes. This was in the context of art, but it is true of EVERYTHING in life. You need to be able to separate the cosmetic aspects of something, which are easily changed, faked, removed or improved, from the fundamental structural aspects which are unyielding and pretty much permanent. What you NEED is a man who is strong in his STRUCTURE. That's simply who he is, not a mask he puts on or the clothes he wears or the job he has. But it takes time to get to know people's true structure, so we often use cosmetics as clues to what people are really like. But clues can be faked -- just because someone is a CEO or a cop or a sports hero does not mean he has genuine inner strength. It just means he was driven to be successful in one aspect of his life, possibly to make up for some other shortcoming (whether real or imagined). Most of the strongest people I've known and loved were outwardly "anonymous" in their lives, because despite their passion and drive they decided early on that their happiness was more important than the cosmetic trappings of success and power and wealth. A strong person is happy to give up control to someone more qualified or capable on a particular matter. They don't need or want to micromanage your actions because they simply trust that you'll do the right thing. I know there are a ton of books out there about dating and resetting your attraction radar. Most of them basically deal with looking past the cosmetic clues you're misinterpreting ("he's bossy, so that means he's strong") and finding the more subtle indicators of true strength and respect. I know one timeless piece of advice is to see how the guy treats waiters, bellhops, etc -- anyone "below" them in social status. Do they respect someone who is working and doing their best, or do they treat them as less valuable just because they don't have the experience or training or smarts to have a "more important" job? That will be exactly how he thinks about and treats you as his submissive. He shouldn't dump shit on you just because he can, any more than he should be rude to waiters just because he can. The fact that you have a history of being taken advantage of is a huge red flag that you should examine, it is absolutely not something you should have to spend all your time and energy "protecting yourself" against. He's supposed to be protecting you. If you don't feel he is, then you need to get away from that man because he is the opposite of what you need.

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/24/2007 8:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross This is akin to what I posted on the perfectionist thread. Most subs are insecure control freak perfectionists in which their lives have taught them that they need to be perfect for everyone else, be strong for everyone else, not show any weakness or lack of strength in any way. Looks around, trying to figure out how LA got in her head.... hmmmmmmmm Okay, I admit this is me. [8\|] I know MFM will say this is "my stuff", but how does a dominant deal with this trait in submissives?

juliaoceania -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 6:12:04 AM)
I have been told in the past that I am threatening to men because I did not behave as though I needed them. I have taken care of me and mine, I am supremely confident in many of my abilities. I am not one to be vulnerable to just anyone. I found someone that was more intent on controlling himself before he thought about controlling me. It is a natural state for him, it is not a role he plays. He does not come across as a "controlling" type at all, and he is more than happy to let me shine and be the best I can be. Part of the reason he enjoys my submission is that I am a confident, powerful in my own right person. A lot of men that are dominant love the idea of a submissive that will bow to only them.

SeveredNeuron -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 6:28:34 AM)
I am told from alot of Doms that they like the strong, confident intellectual types... However there are usually things that clash with that. People who are actually intelligent and are using their intelligence dont really have much time.. (at least i dont and i dont even think i am intelligent), so please remember that when you expect Doms to accept you and make sure that they understand any constraints you have (not necessarily time wise). Just a little piece of advice as most stuff has been said. And please dont be afraid to be confident in what you've done.. i've nearly finished by BSc, going to do honours and PhD, and i've just finished a research project on the breast cancer susceptibility gene which i did during uni holidays... don't be afraid to show off a little, we work just as hard as anyone else. --Ania

MasterFireMaam -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 7:19:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel I know MFM will say this is "my stuff", but how does a dominant deal with this trait in submissives? Deal with a sub who is headstrong? It depends. Are they being headstrong against you or for you? If against, unless I already have a vested interest, I simply say we're not a match. If I have a vested interest, I give them enough rope to hang themselves. That's what my mom did with me. LOL If they're working for you, it's not a problem. I expect the people that I'm in relationships with to be mature adults. I will point out their behavior and say, "You know that you're pushing me away by doing this, right? If this is your intent, let's sit and talk about ending the relationship. If this isn't your intent, let's sit down and talk about what's REALLY wrong." If they don't want to do either of these, this is where I dole out the rope. They'll either auto correct or go down in flames. But, if they don't want to discuss it, this is their choice. See? I didn't say it's your stuff....even though it is. LOL Master Fire

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 7:32:49 AM)
As usual MFM/s approach is one of a good cop and mine's a bit more of a bad cop. I let my partner know what he's doing, why he's doing it, and make him laugh at himself about it. Luckily, he's smart enough to look inside himself to know I'm right and is very easy to laugh at himself (for the most part) I told him this very week that he was disapproving an entire male stereotype that "men are wimpy babies when they don't feel good" because he was doing the typical "don't show weakness" bit. This continues to be amusing because he KNOWS I'm a "reader" and that he's not goign to be able to hide anything- but his initial instinct is to do exactly that, to not be a bother to others, to not cause attention upon himself. So I gently scold him for it, point out why that's not necessary, laugh about it and then deal with the actual issue directly. Over time, they learn new ways of getting through it. As long as you can get to the ACTUAL issue honestly and openly without much bloodshed, then you're doing pretty good. If they continue to be so insecure as to make it impossible to deal with the issue at heart- then you've got serious problems.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 8:19:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross As usual MFM/s approach is one of a good cop and mine's a bit more of a bad cop. Oooo...good cop, bad cop. I've got two sets of handcuffs and a pair of leg irons.... Master Fire

michaels4evr -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 8:51:48 PM)
I consider myself a three-way masochist..physically, mentally and emotionally..so I do enjoy suffering..so when i'm doing the "I'm just so strong and I don't need anybody thing" I am really getting off..I think I know its unfair to Master at times when He tries to help me..He really does hate to see me slave as hard as I do..I am working on letting Him take care of me more..He made the comment earlier that my Epitaph will read "died refusing to be served"..my response? "but she died happy"! great insights on this thread...thanks

newflowers -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/25/2007 11:32:29 PM)
My partner and i had this conversation shortly after we met. He simply did not tolerate the b.s. things i did to test and push when we first met. He called me on them every single time. That was absolutely a first for me. One of the things he loves about me is my strength and confidence. He knows and reveals in my submission to him as submission to him alone. He appriciates my intelligence, strength, and confidence as a match for his own. My submission compliments his dominance as his dominance compliments my submssion - we match. Without a strong sense of self, without strength and confidence, i believe one is not in the realm of submission, but rather of weakness. Recognizing and developing your personal self, learning from and correcting your mistakes, you will find the dominant partner who compliments and is not threatened by you.

beautyImurDaddy -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/26/2007 12:36:55 AM)
i too can relate to the "same man different face" and once you recognize that, you have started one step away from it. i confused codependency with submission and loyalty. if there werent problems in the relationship i couldnt have anything to complain about and for lack of better terminology, wallow in my own self pity. i finally woke up one day and realized what i was doing... took a step back from relationships, worked on myself for a while (yes that even included seeing a therapist) and finally met a wonderful man. Having said that, to be with the one i am with now, i needed to be strong, confident and self sufficient. And those were qualities that he admired in me. Too many times i see subs that freak out and fall apart if they dont hear from a Dominant in 24 hours. Yes, i crave to be with and hear my daddy's voice all the time too, but with him being in the military, and about to deploy again, i know there will be long periods of time that i will not hear from him. That is when inner strength and confidence in yourself and your relationship are necessary. I was a single mother who had been on her own with a daughter for 13 years. I was used to handling everything from household repairs to emotional situations having lived in florida and weathered 9 hurricanes in 2 years. So when we finally moved in together, there was a period of adjustment, of slowly and systematically letting some things go. That doesnt mean that i dont have any control over my life at all.... i still control the home, our finances (to some degree.... decisions are made mutually on major purchases etc) and he can go on deployment knowing that i am completely capable of taking care of myself. I know this situation is unique.... my only point is that there are Dominants out there who appreciate and if anything are attracted to someone who is strong, confident and self assured.

innatedesire -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/26/2007 6:13:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Inticed2sub As I begin my journey into what I jokingly refer to as the "dark side", I am beginning to find the answers I need to figure things out in my own head. But, I am curious if anyone else has come to the same conclusions I have about past relationships. I am figuring out the reasons they haven't worked. One reason is I keep dating the same guy over and over, he just has a different face. Bastard needs to die. The definition of Insanity: Repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results. Its not them its you, they are not right for you; it is often so much easier to blame others rather than take responsability for our own choices, very easy to fall into the "poor me, why are thier no good Dom's/Masters etc..... . Another theory I'm coming up with is this...I threaten men. Yes some men can be intimidated by a strong, independent, intelligent, capable woman. Some men are not. The key here is to find one who appreciates those qualities, not easy to do but not impossible, time and patience. I know I do, and I do it because I am a very capable, confident, and self-sufficient woman. I can handle just about anything thrown at me, and make it look easy. I don't need to refer to my man about every little detail...waste of time if you ask me. Perhaps you are struggling to come to terms with your submissiveness. I could go on and on about how submissive does not equate weak, needy, low self esteem etc....... but I am sure you are already very aware of that. Nor do I need to tell you that not every Dom/Master is looking for a sub/slave to micro-manage, in fact just the opposite. And I think it makes men feel like I don't need them. I wonder if any of them ever realized that what I needed was for them to trust me enough to let me handle it without jumping in and forcing their opinion down my throat as the "only way" just to feel like they were in control. Funny thing is they had it, they just didn't know it. Insecurities. It's ridiculous really, because all I wanted, all I've ever wanted, is for my man to be proud of me. To not worry, and let me take care it. Trust and believe in ME and my abilities. I learned how to be decisive, I learned how to make decisions with confidence, when on the inside I was a nervous wreck - I still am sometimes, I just dont show it. See above in reference to inner conflict with your submissive side. Out in the real world you can't let people see anything they deem as weak, you will get taken advantage of, walked over, and worse of all completely over-looked. You have to show them you are not going to take their shit or they will shovel it all over you. I never understood, until recently, that I grew increasingly bitter about constantly having to do things "his way" when he shouldn't have been wasting his time with it. Made me feel like he didn't think I smart/capable/reliable etc. It's really weird as I see the irony in these situations...I mean, I have always gone for the more controlling type, and the problem is, its only the face they put on for the world. Not one of them knew how to take control in the bedroom - the one fucking place I "needed" them to be. Talk about being doomed to fail. LOL. And just for the newbie sub police...I always did anything that was asked of me, rarely questioned, even when I knew their decisions were going to cost me time, money, and headaches. I have always given any and everything I have in my relationships, and up to this point all it's done is gotten me taken advantage of, because that face I show to the world, its not me. I stand by my man with a fierce loyalty, trust him to make the right choices for us and always have. I think of the man as the rock of the home, and the first place to look for guidance and support. Its called head of the house for a reason. So...anyone else feel like I do? Do you feel like you threaten men, and have to down play your strengths? Been made to feel stupid because they feel inadequate? Ever felt like no matter what choice you make it will be the wrong one? Any and all feed back is greatly appreciated, as I truly do not want to date that guy again. I've seen the movie, I know how it ends. Thanks to all for your time. IMHO what you are seeking is a bedroom Dom, someone who will take controll of you in the bedroom and help you develop the "inner slut", as you stated in your profile, yet out of the bedroom you want to still maintain control of your choices. There is nothing wrong with what you are seeking, like any relationship regardless of the dynamic it takes time and patience. Part of finding who we want is knowing who we are and what we want, and the ability to articulate that to potential partners.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (1/26/2007 7:37:33 AM)
Isn't that amusing? A) That so many subs claim that they just NEED TO SERVE and that all they want is to find a healthy happy relationship with someone they can just relax and be owned by? B) That the first thing they do when they find someone they like and start getting to know them and agreeing to their authority is to DISobey and NOT serve well and justify it as as "testing" them? C) That they actually much more respect doms who see through and refuse to engage in any sort of "testing" behavior? Seriously, so many hoops and rigamorale just to get to know someone! I take the easy way- just get to know someone openly and not play silly insecurity games.

venusdiva429 -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (2/11/2007 11:46:44 PM)
FR- I've had several men write to me and compliment on my profile (older, experienced Doms, which is really flattering). They like the fact that I'm pretty no-nonsense, upfront with my desires, and clear. There have been a few losers who tried to make me feel bad for just those things, or tried to invalidate my stated needs. I shut them down every time, and love doing it. Being too needy and wishy-washy can be a real hindrance...as well as a great, big gaping doorway to possible codependency and abuse. There will be those that try to break your stride by saying that your strength isn't "submissive"enough, or that you want too much by seeking monogamy, etc. Nope. This is part of your evolution, and you will be accepted by someone who appreciates exactly what he has for the gem that you are. The things that make you so special will be a jewel in your Master's crown, not just your own. Any Master that tries to tell you differently is, well, probably looking for someone new to tap-dance over. He should look elsewhere.

novicecourtesan -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (2/12/2007 11:14:19 AM)
I am very new to this site and this lifestyle, but I don't think I could respect or submit to a dom who preferred weak-willed, obedient, unintellectual or unchallenging women. I am still exploring my boundaries, but I have a good sense of who I'm looking for, and thanks to this site, I now know that he is out there. The vanilla world has millions of unspoken rules about dating, and everyone pretends they don't exist. The first is that even a strong man can feel threatened by a woman who is more educated or more successful or financially secure than him. I have three degrees, but I don't require that my dom be a nuclear physicist. I am more interested in someone who likes my smarts and is intelligent in his own way. But many men might be intimidated by that. Still, I would think that dominating an outwardly smart, successful, confident woman would be exciting--especially if the woman has already guaranteed to be submissive and to serve. I would like to give my intellect to my dom just as much as I would my body, and I would like a man confident enough to accept it and use it.. As for your choices in men, welcome to the club! but I think you are taking a good step. I think what you have been attracted to are strong, confident, macho men who are vanilla. They may not even be interested in domination (which has been my experience and is heartbreaking for us subs) and their idea of "dirty sex" may be mainstream porno. It's surprising, but many men in my experience have been turned off by experimentation from a girl, getting distracted by wondering how many partners she's had or where she learned it. A dom man would simply take control of the situation. I do tease and challenge my partner in small ways of denial because I want to invite punishment. That said, the ultimate purpose of anything I do is to be submissive and useful to my man. I also live a busy and active live (I am not 24/7) because I do not want to pester my dom with my neediness, which is different from devotion. He should choose when he wants me. The rest of the time, I keep busy and try not to wait for his call. But it's hard. The best advice I can give you, Inspired2sub, is to understand very clearly what you want and are attracted to, and understand the same about him. I feel so much safer communicating here and in the bdsm world because so little is taboo. I am willing to wait for the right guy, especially because I am seeking a monogamous relationship, and sometimes it's better to be alone with yourself than stuck with the wrong relationship. good luck!

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (2/12/2007 12:53:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I am very new to this site and this lifestyle, but I don't think I could respect or submit to a dom who preferred weak-willed, obedient, unintellectual or unchallenging women. I am still exploring my boundaries, but I have a good sense of who I'm looking for, and thanks to this site, I now know that he is out there. I don't have the experience many others here do, but I highlighted the word obedient in your response because I don't think I've ever seen a dominant here say they wanted a disobedient submissive. Yes there are brats and SAMs and whatever other names they go by, but if I'm not mistaken, they are still required to ultimately obey their dominant. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a part of what being a submissive or a slave involves - submitting to the will of another. The dynamics and conditions of course are negotiated by those in the relationship.

heartfeltsub -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (2/12/2007 1:44:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I am very new to this site and this lifestyle, but I don't think I could respect or submit to a dom who preferred weak-willed, obedient, unintellectual or unchallenging women. I am still exploring my boundaries, but I have a good sense of who I'm looking for, and thanks to this site, I now know that he is out there. I don't have the experience many others here do, but I highlighted the word obedient in your response because I don't think I've ever seen a dominant here say they wanted a disobedient submissive. Yes there are brats and SAMs and whatever other names they go by, but if I'm not mistaken, they are still required to ultimately obey their dominant. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a part of what being a submissive or a slave involves - submitting to the will of another. The dynamics and conditions of course are negotiated by those in the relationship. Wanted to second what NaughtyAngel said, how is the world can one equate obedience and being obedient with being weak-willed? You may be new to the lifestyle courtesan, but you will find that some of the most obedient submissives/slaves are extremely strong willed. heartfelt

novicecourtesan -> RE: strong confident subs: a threat or not? (2/12/2007 2:09:16 PM)
Apologies. I withdraw the word "obedient." I think what I was trying to say is that while I plan to be very obedient to my dom, but I am pretty independent and strong willed otherwise. I think a better word would have been "spineless" or "servile." It's hard when words take on a new meaning here to explain what I mean. I want someone who accepts me and my personality as I am, and I am hoping that will make my submission all the sweeter.

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