RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 11:18:49 AM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

As crappy as it is, outgoing and/or pretty/good looking submissives seem to get the Doms just like these people get the dates in the vanilla. world. What we hope happens, and it does on a lot of occasions, is that we have Doms who look past the outside...and who might prefer the introvert.

mmmmmmm actually both my girl are introverted... (which is not to be confused with being shy... two different things)

mmmmmmm I wonder if that means that they are not pretty/good looking... damn I thought I they're hot... guess I have to accept otherwise.

Yeah, that post kind of threw me, too. I tend to think smart and introverted women are attractive.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 11:21:25 AM

QuietDom

Posts: 255
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Not to mention, unless you're femcar, there's always someone sluttier and out there and getting more attention than you.

Who is femcar, and where can I meet her???

Update: Google answered the question. For anyone else who wondered, she's a BDSM celebrity of sorts, known for her interest in extreme objectification and degradation.

< Message edited by QuietDom -- 1/25/2007 11:26:36 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: When can it bejust about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 11:21:54 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
Yeah, that post kind of threw me, too. I tend to think smart and introverted women are attractive.

Attractive? Sure.

Likely to get that sort of male buzzing and flirting and such? No.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 11:31:07 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

To me the whole thing sounds incredibly immature and sounds like a woman who isn't in touch or comfortable with her own sexuality and is making a bunch of excuses. While I have certainly seen cattiness in the scene, I can't say I've seen any excessive amount towards women who play with more than one top, so it really does just sound like an excuse. But I don't think its any different from mainstream life, there are plenty of women in general that are sexually repressed and can't feel comfortable or confident in their sexuality, and I think no matter their physical attractiveness that lack of confidence makes them less appealing to single men (so my male friends have told me).

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 11:39:27 AM

MasterGremlin

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline

For me, BDSM takes alot of trust, the kind of trust that is earned and built up over time. Master and I didn't startout with Him tying me up and flogging me, in fact W/we started out very vanilla and then moved to more exciting things as W/we built trust up with each other. Knowing what W/we do and how badly things could go wrong with just a small mistake, let alone what could happen with someone who was intentionally trying to do harm, I have a difficult time understanding the subs who go out and just randomly pick a play partner.
I really don't think Your friend should be fretting so about her "problem". It is obvious she is lonely, but it isn't worth picking the wrong Person.

I don't think other subs (married or not) have anything to do with it at all.

Sincerely,
minxy

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 12:03:23 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

What fears does she want to get over exactly?

She doesn't want to get into public scenes unless she's in a committed relationship with someone she really trusts and is secure with.

Exactly why does she think that's a bad way to go about life?

em...

That is the whole thing...She wants to explore scenes public and private and she even knows Doms/Tops she feels would provide her with certain things. But she cannot disconnect her hedonistic feelings for pure pleasure from the emotional fears of only being used for them I am going to use sex in the general term here because no matter what anyone says, having a Dom tie a sub to a St Andrews cross, putting a vubrator in her and the flogging her is sex. This isn't really the thread to debate the esoterics of what is sexual and what isn't about BDSM. Here is the thing. Just about every male human can have sex and be involved in sexual situtions without haveing to be emotionally attached. It is not so for women.

If 100 men and 100 women who have never met or laid eyes upon each other were placed in a room, 98 of the men could have sex or do something sexual with 99 maybe eben 100 of the women there. Just looking across the room 98 of the men would sleep with, get blown by, make out with, flog, spank, tittie torture or do some other variation of sexual play to some extent with each and every woman there no matter what she looked like. 98 of thise men, maybe even 99 would over look whatever they did not like and could figure a way to amuse himself with them right there on the spot

Of course, I would say not quite but almost the exact opposite would be true from the 100 women. The scenarios of who they would and who they would not do, what they would and would not do and why they would and why they would not do them would number in the 1000s Not only that but I would be willing to wager that close to one third of those women would not, under any circumstance,
consent to anything even remotely sexual with half of the guys in the room.

We all know, those who are honest about it, that it is all a numbers game.

But unlike the Non BDSM world, the numbers of caring, honest and life long loving Dom/Men who will commit to a LTR or even marriage and be true to her are greatly out numbered by the sub/women who seek them. But the final thing comes down to this... You cannot win, if you do not play.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 12:13:39 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Again, the obvious thing is that she needs to get into a serious committed relationship. Then she won't have to worry. A secure relationship can allow her to experience all of that without the fears being in the way.

Is she afraid to play publicly because of guilt? Because the person might abuse/treat her badly? Her own insecurites about herself?

Some people just aren't wired to play casually or fuck casually. At this point, I think she's just a newbie aching in some frenzy to 'get what they get' and through that comparison feels lacking and thus a need to make herself change.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 12:16:14 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

What really makes it harder is that a large percentage of people are waiting for that Prince they read about, growing up. "I am going to save myself for the ONE." Without considering that the guy doesn't have a big pick me sign on his forehead.

Too many people are so tunnel visioned on the idea that their ONE is going to just appear out of nowhere.

Sometimes Mr Right should be Mr Right now.
Kyst

Great observation!

And men think the exact opposite

Woman/sub "I am going to save myself for the ONE."

Male/Dom "I wish I could find just "ONE"

And like you said...the notion of that "one" has to be exactly what they are looking for keeps many people non and bdsm alike, unhappy.

(in reply to Missokyst)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 12:23:43 PM

SlaveAkasha

Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

I have played with others just to play..and I have played with those I wanted and was in a relationship with. I don't think that my being willing to do that makes it harder on anyone that won't. There are enough people around that you can find someone that matches what you are looking for at the time.

When I wanted sex..I found it..when I wanted more with someone, I found that also.

I am sure that a lot of women still feel shame about their sexuality, and that to me is a sad thing. I think they believe that being comfortable with it and proud though, means that they will need to sleep with people that they don't have anything else with. I don't think that is true at all. I am totally comfortable with sex for what it is, I am not ashamed of any of the needs I have at all, but that doesn't mean I am not still picky about who I sleep with by any means.

Being open about your needs and wants, doesn't mean you have to spread your legs everytime a guy says so...once they learn that, they can allow that part of themselves to come out a lot more. Owning your sexuality is just that..taking control of it and not being ashamed for anything that you feel...whether you want to fuck every guy you meet, or wait till the right one comes along.

Kasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 1:05:58 PM

LotusSong

Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

What I find sad, are those ageing "free sprits" who have spent their youth at the local dungeon flitting from one to another... now realizing they are approaching 50 .. with nothing but their memories to keep them warm. The fantasy of poly family or slaves cluttered around their feet never quite panned out.

Once you "loose your looks". all the dominace or submission won't mean a damn.

In short, don't put all your eggs in the D/s basket.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

(in reply to amuzingtoyou)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 1:33:30 PM

GrizzlyBear

Posts: 278
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Missoula Montana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

[But the final thing comes down to this... You cannot win, if you do not play.

Dang. You mean I won't win the lottery either, if I don't buy a ticket?

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 1:53:00 PM

badpaliden

Posts: 96
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

why does it have to be about sex at all?

LOL, yeah , RIGHT !! asking that here in CM/Wanker world .... ROFL

_____________________________

stolen from slavish..."My ESP's broken and it nullifies my mind-reading abilities. I could've gotten the extended warranty but it was three hundred bucks and it didn't seem worth it at the time."

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

Profile

Post #: 32

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 2:18:33 PM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

"I am going to save myself for the ONE." Without considering that the guy doesn't have a big pick me sign on his forehead.

gee and here I thought most available doms had this tattoo'd on their foreheads..

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to Missokyst)

Profile

Post #: 33

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 3:08:48 PM

HatesParisHilton

Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline

well, a lot of women like the idea of dating a guy in the band or rising rock star, many go "backstage", then some get upset when realizing they will not be the LAST woman that rocker takes backstage.

same with actors, same with painters, etc. with some things, there's a part of it we want but there's another part often attached to the package that people worry about.

I don;t see much difference between this and your friend meeting other people for nilla stuff, then getting "used" or rejected.

Men use women sexually, women use men for other things, it's still using.

however, for a variety of reasons, being used physically is always much more of an issue with women and rightly so. It's not like they get the salaried raises and promotions as fast, get treated the same in non sex stuff in the world that allows for the same "playing field" we men have. they can't even run for public office the same way. but men rising (often unfairly) above them in life and still USING THEM while they do so? that is gonna leave some emotional "stuff" that could fairly make a woman look at "just sex" as just one more case of cracking open her skull on the very real (unbreakable) glass ceiling.

plus, I don;t know her, but odds are she may have been used wrongly in nilla world and quite hurt. if kink is that much more emotional for her, that means potential hurt will equally be greater.

I think if things had been closer to truly equal for the last 500 years more women would be fine with the "it's just a spanking and a shag no strings atached" POV and view it more like we do, but if wishes were fishes...

_____________________________

I am (now) "Hiltie", hear me ROARRRRR! And have a cuffy cake, they're nice.

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Profile

Post #: 34

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 3:26:37 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Well, maybe it is because I am not into "the scene" where I live (I am not, or so far haven't been, much of a "scene person" as far as investigating too much the bdsm group in my town) - But - I really do think that I have so many "vanilla" friends I am close with, and some other stuff in my life that I devote myself to, and I am older, too (which might mean I invest a heck of a lot less of my own ego in what other people think of me, than I did when I was, say, twenty-five), so that -

I think if I was more "into" the scene here, and knew some people, while it would hurt my feelings of course if someone were to start gossiping about me and such, it wouldn't ruin my existence (though yeah, sure, it might hurt and terribly annoy me, maybe even make me very mad).

I just have too much else to "fall back on", as it were. Maybe your friend could contemplate the areas of her life she could consider "emotional resources" when and if the "_hit hits the fan", so to speak. I am sure she must have "other areas" of her life she devotes her time to, as well as bdsm stuff. I know I have other friends I could go out with - maybe not to a bdsm party, okay, but I woudn't lack for things to do, if someone ended up making me feel less than welcome in any "bdsm scene" in my town.

Is it fair she'd be made to feel ostracized for something she didn't even do (or that she did, in fact, do)? Of course not. I am just saying that it doesn't have to bring her world to an end.

I have a loving immediate family that lives in town, and two dogs who adore me. And some volunteer organizations that count on my help, etc. There are other things in life, besides considering what people in "the scene" think of you (not that I am down-playing the hurt your friend might experience, it is a consideration, to be sure). Just saying it might be food for thought. Good luck to her - my heart goes out to her.

As far as "feeling used" is concerned, well. When I first started getting serious about pursuing an interest in this "bdsm stuff" a few years ago, I made it a point to seek out two completely anonymous experiences. Why? Because I wanted to see if I was merely fantasizing it would feel great to me - or if it actually did feel great to me. I was raised a good Catholic girl, and while I did feel a wee bit "slutty", it wasn't overwhleming. Then again, I am 46 years old, and had been wanting to experience bdsm for years up until then, and had denied myself any opportunity. If I had been say, 25, I am not sure I would have done that.

The men I temporarily connected with knew I was seeking experience only, and seemed to respect that - and were not looking for anything other than "play" themselves. I checked them both out (as much as I could) before playing with them (on the internet anyway, and via another slight acquaintance who knew them better than I did. Maybe not real fool-proof, but the best I could do at the time, I thought).

We met for coffee once first, and then went to their place for spanking, and moderate-level play with a strap, in one case. In the other case, the person wanted to do all sorts of things, and I just wanted to do more spanking and straps (I was brand new to this, and somewhat intimidated, at first), and I guess, now that I think on it, that was the one time I actually experienced bondage (my ex-Dominant just never tied me up - who knows why? He wasn't into it, I guess).

They didn't hound me for a relationship afterward - they weren't looking for one, either (one had a steady GF, and one was a sort of perennial party animal bachelor-type). It worked out fine.

I almost never tell anyone this, though (which is kinda interesting, now that I think about it). Why? I am afraid they will think I am a "Slut". So - there you go. Your friend, and what she is experiencing, is not unusual, probably (unfortunately). But - I say she should "go for it" anyway. She owes it to herself to try to make herself happy, after all.

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/25/2007 3:52:15 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 35

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 3:30:25 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Just the practical ones.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave
gee and here I thought most available doms had this tattoo'd on their foreheads..

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Profile

Post #: 36

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 3:40:47 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

What I got out of your post was that this girl believes that sex or play requires significant emotional attachment between the two (or more) people involved. That she would like to not have this belief so that she can participate in more casual play or sex without the negative emotions afterwards. Is that accurate?

On the premise that I was correct, I have to say please get out of my head *s* This is something that the three of us are working in dealing with. I come from a very conservative, strict southern baptist family and sex or any type of sexual activity is only for people who are married. This belief was pounded in my head over and over again. When I first had sex as a teenager, it was again reinforced that this is something to be ashamed of and it is a betrayal.

When my Lord has sex or plays with someone outside of alandra or me, it feels like betrayal. Logically, I can rationalize that it isn't, but the belief that only people in commited relationships do these things is what is driving that emotion. That belief no longer works with the choices I have made in my life, so I am changing it.

Intellectually, I have been able to follow the logic and see where this belief falls apart, but changing the belief is not like flipping a light switch. It is so easy to fall back into the old thought patterns rather than confronting the belief and deal with the emotional baggage of it. In many ways it is an identity change for me and that is terrifying in itself.

It is taking continual effort to change the way I think and ultimately the way I feel about sex and play. What helps me is to think of these things as a sport or any other hobby that people do for fun. Part of me screams out that this is wrong!!! Sex should mean more than just going to the movies or playing hockey with someone, but why?? Each time my head says "that is just wrong" I ask myself "why". Most times I am not able to come up with a rational answer.

It comes down to a choice. Does she want to continue to hold onto this belief or does she want to change it and then each day you have to continue to make the same choice until the belief is replaced. It is exhausting at times, frustrating, heart-wrenching and rewarding. When things start clicking in my head and I tear that belief down just a bit more it makes all the work worth it.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 37

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 3:45:57 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Do single or even married submissive who openly explore and play within the "scene" both public and private and with more than one Dom/Top for their own personal needs and enjoyment, make it harder or easier for other single women who not so open or adventurous?

To answer this question... I make it harder or easier for me. Other people outside of my significant relationships do not control my life or my choices.

As a quiet, reserved, introveted single submissive in my area, I got quite a bit of attention. Of course, when I told them I was interested in a dominant in Canada they all but called me stupid. Two years later, immensely happy and content, I don't look so foolish now, do I? *g*

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Profile

Post #: 38

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 4:09:49 PM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

I guess I have a different viewpoint than what's been expressed so far.

You see, boyfriend or Master or the Great Houdinin, who cares what he's called. If someone wants a significant relationship with the person they're playing with, I don't really understand this drive to call that low self-esteem or insecurity or anything else. All it is, is wanting a significant relationship with the person they're playing with. To get that exacts a cost. In your friend's situation, that cost includes recordings and phone sex and whatever it takes to get through the night. It doesn't mean a lack of sexuality or a inhibition of exploring that sexuality to the fullest. It just means that she's picky over who she explores with. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad thing.

I've certainly felt that at many times in my single life. Sometimes I feel it now when he's been busy and I'm feeling antsy - I mean, just how simple could it be to just go get someone to deal with the horniness and let the chips fall where they may? But that's not me - even when I wish it could be, and if I did that, not only would I be jeopardizing the relationship I do have, but I'd also be jeopardizing my view of myself, and really, getting fucked is nice, but it's not that nice. To me, it's simply not worth, nor has it ever been worth the cost. What IS worth the cost though is being in a relationship and knowing that no matter what, I'd holding up my end of it - even when I get frustrated. And the same holds true for me now. The same thing held true for me when I was single.

If she's holding out for what she wants, then I'd say do she should do what she has to do, but stay true to herself. There IS someone out there and that someone is going to want her exactly the way she is, not the way everyone else hopes she'll become.

I don't really find the backstabbing issues your dominant friend has described - but then, I also have always refused to get involved in the drama that typically accompanies "scene related activities." On top of that, I found it not just a little humorous that the person commenting on her inability to just go play around willy nilly with every Tom, Dick and Harry that came down the pike actually has a husband at home, so even when she opts NOT to become involved with people she still has someone that keeps her company, watches movies with her, has common interests, common goals and the opportunity to feel love from someone - which isn't exactly at the beck and call of the people who choose this lifestyle while single. Add modest or being selective to the single lable and what you have is a prescription for loneliness.

Loneliness just does NOT mean anyone has to accept less than what they want though. That's just a fallacy that we THINK is important - and it just isn't.

I was very much like your friend. But instead of berating myself over my selectiveness, I embraced it. And today, I have the person I've always hoped I'd meet. I tried to play with others and while there were some that things worked out really well with, none of it was what I'd hoped it might be. When push came to shove there were definitely things that I was choosing to do with someone in a more committed relationship - not just a casual one-night fling. I've never been sorry for my choices. I'd hope your friend isn't sorry for hers.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 1/25/2007 4:11:08 PM >

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)

Profile

Post #: 39

RE: When can it just be about sex or play for female subs? - 1/25/2007 4:17:53 PM

MasterGremlin

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

I guess I have a different viewpoint than what's been expressed so far.

You see, boyfriend or Master or the Great Houdinin, who cares what he's called. If someone wants a significant relationship with the person they're playing with, I don't really understand this drive to call that low self-esteem or insecurity or anything else. All it is, is wanting a significant relationship with the person they're playing with. To get that exacts a cost. In your friend's situation, that cost includes recordings and phone sex and whatever it takes to get through the night. It doesn't mean a lack of sexuality or a inhibition of exploring that sexuality to the fullest. It just means that she's picky over who she explores with. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad thing.

I've certainly felt that at many times in my single life. Sometimes I feel it now when he's been busy and I'm feeling antsy - I mean, just how simple could it be to just go get someone to deal with the horniness and let the chips fall where they may? But that's not me - even when I wish it could be, and if I did that, not only would I be jeopardizing the relationship I do have, but I'd also be jeopardizing my view of myself, and really, getting fucked is nice, but it's not that nice. To me, it's simply not worth, nor has it ever been worth the cost. What IS worth the cost though is being in a relationship and knowing that no matter what, I'd holding up my end of it - even when I get frustrated. And the same holds true for me now. The same thing held true for me when I was single.

If she's holding out for what she wants, then I'd say do she should do what she has to do, but stay true to herself. There IS someone out there and that someone is going to want her exactly the way she is, not the way everyone else hopes she'll become.

I don't really find the backstabbing issues your dominant friend has described - but then, I also have always refused to get involved in the drama that typically accompanies "scene related activities." On top of that, I found it not just a little humorous that the person commenting on her inability to just go play around willy nilly with every Tom, Dick and Harry that came down the pike actually has a husband at home, so even when she opts NOT to become involved with people she still has someone that keeps her company, watches movies with her, has common interests, common goals and the opportunity to feel love from someone - which isn't exactly at the beck and call of the people who choose this lifestyle while single. Add modest or being selective to the single lable and what you have is a prescription for loneliness.

Loneliness just does NOT mean anyone has to accept less than what they want though. That's just a fallacy that we THINK is important - and it just isn't.

I was very much like your friend. But instead of berating myself over my selectiveness, I embraced it. And today, I have the person I've always hoped I'd meet. I tried to play with others and while there were some that things worked out really well with, none of it was what I'd hoped it might be. When push came to shove there were definitely things that I was choosing to do with someone in a more committed relationship - not just a casual one-night fling. I've never been sorry for my choices. I'd hope your friend isn't sorry for hers.

juliet