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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 1:26:58 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		General point

Every EU country that belly aches over migration has citizens who are themselves migrants in other EU countries. They also say nothing about their citizens buying cheap homes in countries like Rumania, Bulgaria and Hungary etc. It all evens out in the end and the only thing driving this debate is xenophobia. However, the solution to this perceived problem is easy, withdraw from the EU. We know that won't happen because despite all the belly aching, all countries gain a lot from the EU and the majority in mosdt countries want to stay in the EU and I bet that is the same in Britain. Too many Brits go abroad now and realise that Briatin is not the most democratic, liberal and egalitarian country in the EU and Britain's politics need serious updating. Selling honours for cash, the power of patronage from of the Prime Minister, Britain looks decidedly like a banana republic from here and it should stop belly aching.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/26/2007 1:40:33 AM >

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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 1:36:52 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

UR, I can honestly say it's news to me. I thought you were joking in your original post - it seems the wrong end of the stick on my part. I'm not saying it is beyond the realms of possibility but I would be very surprised. Not because we are particularly civilised nor because it's cheap to live here because it's not - I know people who go to New York on shopping trips because it's so much cheaper to buy things (or at least that's the perception).

I live in what is deemed to be England's second city and there are a large number of Poles here - I've heard no such problems. Put it this way, they have enough money to get absolutely blotto on a Saturday afternoon - you can see a minority of them stumbling around town singing indecipherable songs.

It'll be interesting to see a link of the 20, 30 or 40 to a house.


Gent.....

Really... I wasn't kidding. I actually have the radio program downloaded on my hard drive so you can hear him say this directly from London, British accent and all! If you can put together a yahoo email addy....I'll send it to you.

I also don't want you to get me wrong....because this guy compliments the ''poles'' on their thriftyness and goes on to say basically what you've mentioned - They're smart and educated. And if people can't compete, maybe it is time they hit the books again.



 - R



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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 1:41:24 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		It has been claimed that "getting an education" will help the unskilled Brits to improve their lot when in competition for jobs with immigrant workers. If this were possible , which it almost certainly is not, then the end result would be  more people on the pay roll of local and national governments or back on some form of assistance when their qualifications proved of little value,. all funded of course by the taxpayer.

Unemployment falls if in education, if/when employed by the taxpayer GNP rises, bingo, immigration is good for the economy.

Where I live there was a fuss about a Zimbabwian woman who the government wanted to deport. One point put by those who supported her was that she was well integrated and in employment.
What did she do, she "worked" in an office that gave out advice for asylumseekers and immigrants run on a govnt. grant by the very people who claimed she should not be deported.

Another economic point, the currency flow out of the UK is very substantial as immigrants remit money to their homelands.ie at the very least purchasing power is transferred from the UK. Since nearly all admit that consumer spending is vital to maintain the economy then such transfers are problematic NO ?

The shit will really hit the fan if/when we have a serious recession. A certainty in my opinion. The recession that occured under Mrs Thatcher was financed by revenues from North Sea Oil. What will be used next time ?



< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/26/2007 1:50:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 1:54:19 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		UR, I'll be struggling with the e-mail addy but I reckon your word is good on the commentary point.

There's a balance between personal responsibilty and government management. If I felt my livelihood was under threat then I would do something about it. At the same time, the government are paid a lot of money and it's not to fall asleep at Prime Ministers Question Time. They are paid to improve the lives of Britons and this can only be done through long-term, sustainable economic growth (rather than the migrant worker quick fix). For my money, this is the real problem.

You're spot on, it's completely uncivilised to cram people in a house like chickens in a pen. I think I'll do a spot of googling around this, see if I can find anything shedding a bit of light on the issue.





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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:04:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL meatcleaver
However, the solution to this perceived problem is easy, withdraw from the EU. We know that won't happen because despite all the belly aching, all countries gain a lot from the EU and the majority in mosdt countries want to stay in the EU and I bet that is the same in Britain.


I'd like to know what the England gains from being in the EU.
We have balance of payments deficit and are one of the major financial contributers, along with the capital outflow to Northern Ireland, Wales and "growl" Scotland we have to sustain. 
Constant interference in our body politic emanating from Brussels topped of course by the dreaded Human Rights legislation.

I suppose our European Parliamentarians do OK, swanning off to Brussels and then moving to Strasboug every couple of weeks or so. all on ridiculous salaries and First Class expenses. eg Neil  Pillock, sorry Kinnock. charged with clearing up corruption did absolutly nothing...... I believe thats known as a Gravy train. Some chance of reform from them !


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/26/2007 2:12:39 AM >

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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:09:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		How long is it going to take people to realise that governments do not create real value added wealth. The recent Hstory of the UK demonstrates that quite clearly.

Who said that those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it !

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:14:05 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		UR,

This is the first link I found. It doesn't tell the full story because it's centred around a particular Polish community. I found a fair few articles with a similar theme of the Polish enjoying their life here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/articles/2006/12/12/polish_living_feature.shtml

On the other side of the coin, here is a report on an investigation by The Guardian supporting your 20 to a house comment.

http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/publications/coverage/110105%20Anderson.pdf

On balance, I'd say it's the usual case of opportunity and exploitation. Many Poles have a far better standard of living here but a minority are completely exploited by gang masters.



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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:16:17 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		Gent....

Maybe I'll consult with kenin or someone who can help me with a way where I can put these audio clips on a free public domain so others can download them. Kinda like what a few others have done in the past.

Anyways.....it's great to hear these audio clips and read this discussion amongst you Brits; because quite frankly, until the other day I never understood that there was some ''bad blood'' for reasons of Eastern Europeans coming over to work. But having read some of the commentary on this board, I see many of the same problems we have back here in the states.





- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:24:56 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		UR, there will always be people who look for the negative in any situation and we have our fair share of right wingers who thrive on a dose of division and confrontation. There will always be uninformed opinion underpinned by prejudice - all societies have these types.

Bad blood? Within the circles I mix, I have seen no problems whatsoever. Then again, I'm sure it exists - to what extent is open to debate.



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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 2:27:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I wouldnt put too much credence on the BBC on this issue. They are simply not impartial and will select that which they believe projects what  we , the plebs, ought to hear.

For example it is constantly reported that Polish bus drivers earn 300 pounds a week where in Poland they might earn 60 pounds a week, therefore they have improved their lot. Lucky them, generous UK.
If the cost of living in London is greater than 5 times that in Warsaw then the claim is untrue. Also gross salary is used to make the comparison. Deceit or what ? 

The living conditions of the Chinese cockle pickers came to light... and they were quite grim.Likewise with temp Farm workers.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 3:44:11 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I'd like to know what the England gains from being in the EU.
We have balance of payments deficit and are one of the major financial contributers, along with the capital outflow to Northern Ireland, Wales and "growl" Scotland we have to sustain. 
Constant interference in our body politic emanating from Brussels topped of course by the dreaded Human Rights legislation.

I suppose our European Parliamentarians do OK, swanning off to Brussels and then moving to Strasboug every couple of weeks or so. all on ridiculous salaries and First Class expenses. eg Neil  Pillock, sorry Kinnock. charged with clearing up corruption did absolutly nothing...... I believe thats known as a Gravy train. Some chance of reform from them !



If you don't like it leave. As for not liking any laws that come out of the EU, the government has a veto so they must approve of them despite them always blaming other EU countries. What Britain lacks is a honest debate about the EU but that is not the EU's fault, that is the fault of you and other Brits.

While people stand on the sideline and whine, nothing will get reformed. Many people in Europe see the same problem as many Brits but they have decided they want to be part of the EU and reform it from the inside. All Britain ever does is say it is everybody else's fault and does nothing.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 4:13:04 AM   
sleazy


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Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Sleazy, your post sounds right out of the Daily Mail. There are Polish workers here and they are well educated and skilled and do not live 8 or 9 in a house.


My post is right out of my street, the house next door, and next door to that, and next...... hell you get the idea, least you should do, I am sure I have said such things on these boards before. No quotes, no sources, personal experience! I dont know where you live meatcleaver, but where I live this is the reality, not some utopia from the pages of the guardian.

I also did not say anything at all I believe that even hinted they were unskilled or uneducated, in fact I seem to recall talking specifically about a skilled trade, that of carpenter. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Sometimes the tabloids get it right.

Editied to add... looks like sometimes the guardian does too

< Message edited by sleazy -- 1/26/2007 4:20:33 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 4:19:59 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I  live in Amsterdam, in an inner city mulit-racial multi-cultural area with many Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians as well as many other people from outside the EU. Most of the Dutch that live in this area are older people who never moved away or young people having just moved in and wanting to live in a lively down town area.  It takes a while for migrants to get set up in a country. I really don't see any of it as a big deal.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/26/2007 4:22:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 4:31:55 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I  live in Amsterdam, in an inner city mulit-racial multi-ethnic area with many Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians as well as many other people from outside the EU. Most of the Dutch that live in this area are older people who never moved away or young people having just moved in and wanting to live in a lively down town area.  It takes a while for migrants to get set up in a country. I really don't see any of it as a big deal.


I would suspect for the younger people it is financial rather cultural reasons that have them buying houses in such a locality. This of course purely based on my experiences of western cultures and housing prices in areas with a high content of residents from ethnic minorities, or are you sayiny you live in the only western city I have ever heard of that has no "ghettos". The part of London I live in fits this profile perfectly. Young people buy houses here for two reasons, to either let them out to low income families or immigrants, or simply because compared to other parts of the city housing costs are low enough that it is the only way they can get a foot on the property ladder. It is also my understanding that the dutch have a very strict immigration policy compared to many other EU countries.

Please feel free to jump on a train and I will gladly give you a guided tour of what Britain is really like, here, now, today. I will show you streets where there is barely a british car to be seen, I will take you on bus journeys where the only english voice you will hear will be mine. This is not some artificial concept, this is the part of London where the olympics are to be held.

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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 6:08:41 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
For example it is constantly reported that Polish bus drivers earn 300 pounds a week where in Poland they might earn 60 pounds a week, therefore they have improved their lot. Lucky them, generous UK.
If the cost of living in London is greater than 5 times that in Warsaw then the claim is untrue. Also gross salary is used to make the comparison. Deceit or what ? 

The living conditions of the Chinese cockle pickers came to light... and they were quite grim.Likewise with temp Farm workers.


There is no easy way to compare salaries when one takes income tax et al into account. I employed a young Czech guy over the summer - a better worker I have never come across - and at 21 years of age, I paid him 20k per annum, which isnt bad for a 21 year old. On paper, after UK tax of about 25% he was miles better off than in his Czech job, yet he couldnt live here because of the living costs. He went home in November last year to a job which paid about the same, except with income tax closer to 40%, yet he could live like a king on the net pay.

On the subject of 20 to a house (an exaggeration, but still), we must understand that these people in general are not here to settle. They come to earn more and save as much as they can - sharing a house helps them to reduce their living costs, with the aim of eventually going home and being wealthy because of the greater buying power they have earned in the UK. Would any of us do any different in their circumstances? No. Look at the living conditions and comparative pay on the oil rigs if in any doubt.

The Chinese cockle pickers who were drowned in Morecambe Bay were here illegally. The eastern and central EU immigrants are here legally. The law cannot protect people of whose existence it has little knowledge, but the great thing about the UK is, that legal or not, we still spent what must have been thousands, maybe tens of thousands of pounds on trying to rescue them.

E



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RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 6:55:32 AM   
sleazy


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Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		One thing that I do regularly notice, is that a great many of these people actually have cars that have been bought, or at the very least registered in their home country, and I would imagine are relatively speaking even more expensive there.

Common ones, Mercedes M class, BMW 5 Series, Audi A4/6, VW Passat, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Mercedes V Class. Most of these are premium cars and also pre-date those countries joining the EU, therefore I would presume a lot of these people were darned well off by local standards before they came over here. Oddly enough the electricians, the carpenters, the plumbers etc, the trades people this country does need are the ones I see on the bus or even walking to work carrying a tool bag. I dont see the owners of the more expensive motors commuting to work or queued up in the employment agencies, which does leave a little room for speculation as to exactly what they are doing here if they were so well off at home.

No this is not sour grapes beacuse I own an old clunker, my motor is purely my weekend plaything and I have no desire to own a shiny BMW - It just aint suitable for my favourite way of spending a weekend :)

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 7:17:41 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		If immigration is such a "good" thing why isn't China, Japan, India et al engaging in it?
And why does all this immigration seem to be flowing one-way i.e. to Western countries and not to other countries?
And then there's Russia who is actually losing population every year!

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 7:37:00 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy


I would suspect for the younger people it is financial rather cultural reasons that have them buying houses in such a locality. This of course purely based on my experiences of western cultures and housing prices in areas with a high content of residents from ethnic minorities, or are you sayiny you live in the only western city I have ever heard of that has no "ghettos". The part of London I live in fits this profile perfectly. Young people buy houses here for two reasons, to either let them out to low income families or immigrants, or simply because compared to other parts of the city housing costs are low enough that it is the only way they can get a foot on the property ladder. It is also my understanding that the dutch have a very strict immigration policy compared to many other EU countries.

Please feel free to jump on a train and I will gladly give you a guided tour of what Britain is really like, here, now, today. I will show you streets where there is barely a british car to be seen, I will take you on bus journeys where the only english voice you will hear will be mine. This is not some artificial concept, this is the part of London where the olympics are to be held.


Like any capital city its a mixed bag, expensive houses around the corner from council flats and student houses. Holland tries to keep a mix of bought and rented houses in an area in hope of not creating ghettoes but it doesn't always work but it does mean a lot of the time they avoid the sink estates of Britain. I have a bought studio/appartment not far from the central station and about ten minutes walk from Dam Square.

I have lived in east London for ten years so I know what Britain is like and if there are problems it is the fault of the politicians and the faceless bureaucratic nature of local government. The biggest cities in Holland are about 50% white and 50% other so its no different and Holland has double the % none indigenous population that Britain has.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 7:53:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Employing a Czech for 20 K LadyEllen said
quote:


On paper, after UK tax of about 25% he was miles better off than in his Czech job, yet he couldnt live here because of the living costs. He went home in November last year to a job which paid about the same, except with income tax closer to 40%, yet he could live like a king on the net pay.


How can you neglect living costs and claim he was better off. That distortion is what I was making clear the "impartial" BBC does all the time ! 

This problem is nothing to do with whether immigrants are nice people or not, or whether you can have a good evening out  with a Chinaman a Pole  a Pakistani an Indian a Kurd  an Ethiopian. a Somalian etc etc.. Its about the social divisions that are being introduced, the welfare costs, the education costs, spiralling crime , pressure on available housing, de facto segregation, rise in militan religious activism, illegal immigration where the immigrants are exploited and do God knows what to survive, the animosity that exists between different immigrant groups eg Kurds and Pakistanis. groan and more groan !!!

Futher, those immigrants that really are skilled are more beneficially employed in their homelands, trying to "even out" the disparities in national wealth that exists.

What is it about you Guardianistas that you simply cant see whats staring you in the face ?

.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: With so many immigrants now in England and now - 1/26/2007 7:59:27 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL Meatcleaver
The biggest cities in Holland are about 50% white and 50% other so its no different and Holland has double the % none indigenous population that Britain has.

and seriously thinking about limiting immigration since that "tolerant" I think Muslim stabbed to death the film producer.

There is certainly a rise in Right Wing political sympathies across the whole of Europe....France Holland Belgium the UK Germany etc, the feelings are so widespread I suppose thay must all be wrong NO ?




< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/26/2007 8:01:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 40
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