RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 6:31:11 AM

mstrjx

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Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: italian4pain

White pumps? After labor day? lol

Which of course illustrates two things.

First, how quickly belief systems override one's natural tendency to obey.

Second, how the day after Labor Day is still a year BEFORE the next labor day.

Only one of these is important.

Jeff

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 7:06:40 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

A slave is someone who no longer has to concern themself with (basically) themself, such that they can devote their attention to the Master/Mistress. The exception is self-preservation.

But what if the master wants them to think of themselves and consider themselves because it helps them serve better?

Example, exercising, meditating, working, going to school. some of these are activities that expose said slave to the outside world, and do not directly involve the master. They also involve the slave having to worry about much more than master.

quote:

A submissive, on the other hand, always has to balance anygivenactivity to determine whether or not their limits are unfairly pushed or whether the area of their life they are keeping to themself is being rubbed against.

Funny, I do not think about these things much, and I am very much a submissive. I think that if a person is happy and fulfilled in any relationship with a high level of compatibility this is not going to be an issue.

quote:

There's actually the possibility of too much 'maintenance' to a D/s relationship that needn't exist in an M/s relationship.

What does this mean?

edited for clarity

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/29/2007 7:09:33 AM >

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 8:57:56 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

A slave is someone who no longer has to concern themself with (basically) themself, such that they can devote their attention to the Master/Mistress. The exception is self-preservation.

But what if the master wants them to think of themselves and consider themselves because it helps them serve better?

Example, exercising, meditating, working, going to school. some of these are activities that expose said slave to the outside world, and do not directly involve the master. They also involve the slave having to worry about much more than master.

quote:

A submissive, on the other hand, always has to balance anygivenactivity to determine whether or not their limits are unfairly pushed or whether the area of their life they are keeping to themself is being rubbed against.

Funny, I do not think about these things much, and I am very much a submissive. I think that if a person is happy and fulfilled in any relationship with a high level of compatibility this is not going to be an issue.

quote:

There's actually the possibility of too much 'maintenance' to a D/s relationship that needn't exist in an M/s relationship.

What does this mean?

edited for clarity

I knew that when I was writing the original post that it might sound like I was bashing submissives, or favoring slaves, but really neither is quite true.

There is a distinction, in my mind, between the two, and that is 'where do you draw the line between submitting, and surrendering'.

When you draw the line, then move it, then erase it, which you can think of as a LIMIT, that can be a wonderful process. But as a submissive it is possible to get too caught up in the minutiae of reevaluating and renegotiating. Granted, this is probably true moreso for new submissives or new relationships. As you point out, once a couple become familiar with one another, this 'maintenance' diminishes.

Once, through time, experience, and trust, a relationship evolves from D/s to M/s, and the 'surrender' has taken place, then the inward (which you could read 'defensive') focus need not exist. Anything that happens from there, even self-improvement, is really a factor of the servitude.

I am not saying that slaves have nothing to do. I could go back to a thread a few months back where I said that being a slave is 'easier' than being a submissive (for the same reason, their focus is on one thing (serving), rather than juggling their servitude with those portions of their life that they still directly control).

Being selfless is so much less taxing than being a portion of one's focus on one's self. No, I'm not calling it selfish.

I would imagine that when an s-type considers their current or ideal relationship, they ask themself if there is a portion of their life/control/etc. that they must retain as their own. If the answer is 'yes', then they are not fully willing to surrender total control. On the flip side, certainly plenty of d-types are not desiring total control, but some do.

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

We all have to ask ourselves, or become comfortable with, what our potential is. Just because you 'can' be a slave, or an owner, does not mean that you MUST become one before it is all said and done. But it is an indication of what one is WILLING to do.

Jeff

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 9:29:05 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

There is a distinction, in my mind, between the two, and that is 'where do you draw the line between submitting, and surrendering'

I do not draw a line there, neither does my Daddy. I surrender when I submit, I submit even when I am not with him. I am always "on" that way. I do not see a difference.

quote:

Once, through time, experience, and trust, a relationship evolves from D/s to M/s, and the 'surrender' has taken place, then the inward (which you could read 'defensive') focus need not exist. Anything that happens from there, even self-improvement, is really a factor of the servitude

Evolving from one to another implies that one is a cheaper version of the other, we never intend on calling what we do Ms, so that implies we will always be "lacking" in some minds, not that I care what others think mind you. They do not live my life, they are not in my relationship, and it is all just other people's ideas and labels... which really do not matter. I was just pointing out that for YOU in YOUR mind that one is better than the other, more evolved than the other, and you seemingly apply more value to one than the other. Personally, I would rather have a vanilla relationship than MANY models of Ms I have read about (not on this board necessarily), I do not think the label makes the relationship more valuable, it is the people that make it of value, and what they give to each other, whether calling it power exchange or marriage really isn't a measure of a relationship's intrinsic worth.. just my thoughts.

Another aspect, you are speaking of what happens within another human being without experiencing it first hand yourself, and then applying your own label to it. I do not see how that you could know what it is that happens in a submissive as opposed to a slave, never having been either.

quote:

Being selfless is so much less taxing than being a portion of one's focus on one's self. No, I'm not calling it selfish.

I only played a martyr when I was vanilla

quote:

I would imagine that when an s-type considers their current or ideal relationship, they ask themself if there is a portion of their life/control/etc. that they must retain as their own. If the answer is 'yes', then they are not fully willing to surrender total control. On the flip side, certainly plenty of d-types are not desiring total control, but some do.

I used to ask myself these questions, they just are not important anymore. We live, we love, we exist, we are, we just wannabe free to ride our machine and not be hassled by the man ( That was for you Daddy...smiles). I have lots of control in my life, I think all people do, they just either choose to exercise it or not to exercise it. If I do not have control, how can I exchange power with my Daddy? I am constantly exhibiting control when I do as I am told, when I follow through with his desires, when I accomplish any task. I am an individual separate from him after all.

But like I said, this is why I do not define submission or slavery... everyone has their own ideas, and they never are like my own. I am really ok with that, I think that your ideas are fine for your relationship, but they have no application in my universe.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 10:27:58 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: italian4pain

White pumps? After labor day? lol

Which of course illustrates two things.
First, how quickly belief systems override one's natural tendency to obey.
Second, how the day after Labor Day is still a year BEFORE the next labor day.
Only one of these is important.

Jeff

I realize that a Master's orders trump all accepted fashion do's and don'ts but for the sake of discussion, the "no white shoes" rule is in effect from Labor Day through Easter, with Easter being the first day it's "fashionably acceptable" to wear white shoes.

And who says these slave vs submissive threads aren't educational?

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 10:41:19 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

I realize that a Master's orders trump all accepted fashion do's and don'ts but for the sake of discussion, the "no white shoes" rule is in effect from Labor Day through Easter, with Easter being the first day it's "fashionably acceptable" to wear white shoes.

And who says these slave vs submissive threads aren't educational?

Interesting, I've always known the rule to be Memorial Day, specially as Easter can be any date in March/April and thus certainly still within the "winter" period where white is disallowed.

Winter white, and white sports shoes of course, are always exempt from the rule.

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 10:44:09 AM

Celeste43

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Joined: 2/4/2006
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Around here, Easter is still icy and snowy. Although so far this year snow seems nonexistant. And white snow boots show the salt stains.

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 11:39:01 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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Well this is south Louisiana so Winter can be a wide variety of things, none of which lasts for long. Every year is different, but March and April are generally all the Spring we will get. When I was little, Easter meant either white or black patent leather shoes, and dresses in pastel colors (often dotted swiss). So Easter was the first day after whatever we defined as Winter that year, you could fashionably wear white shoes.

Those were the fashion rules we grew up with and in some ways I guess we still follow.

The white 5 inch heels Jeff mentioned wouldn't likely happen be in my fashion future no matter what time of the year. Mostly because I'm 5'10 in my bare feet!

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 4:16:32 PM

subsa

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i'd like to say thanks to all of you for posting your opinions. many of you are people that i read most things you post and your opinions are valuable to me. but that's why i know this is the true definition for me. because for once i'm sure about my decision that i'm a submissive and your opinions haven't changed it. often times i write things here but after reading more posts i begin to see so many sides that i'm confused. not this time....smile...feels pretty damn good!

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 4:40:30 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subsa

to those of you who identify as slave...do you believe you belong to yourself?

No.

quote:

do you ever have moments where you feel free?

Yes, many.

C~

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/29/2007 4:50:25 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

I realize that a Master's orders trump all accepted fashion do's and don'ts but for the sake of discussion, the "no white shoes" rule is in effect from Labor Day through Easter, with Easter being the first day it's "fashionably acceptable" to wear white shoes.

And who says these slave vs submissive threads aren't educational?

Interesting, I've always known the rule to be Memorial Day, specially as Easter can be any date in March/April and thus certainly still within the "winter" period where white is disallowed.

Winter white, and white sports shoes of course, are always exempt from the rule.

Yeah. If you arent nine and wearing patent leather mary janes and a bonnet, white shoes are a no-no until the official beginning of the summer season.
Having me wear white dress shoes any day of the year would definitely count as humiliation play. There is something about white pumps that make me think PORN STAR.
Then again, Id so love to wear white patent leather mary janes and a bonnet.
I guess there really is no accounting for taste.

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/31/2007 7:22:48 PM

slavemaia

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My slavery is internal. Without my Master i would still be a slave, although i may not have the way to express it so openly. In looking back over my life i can see how my nature has caused me to enslave myself to others without any agreement, discussion etc. i did not become a slave because i got involved in this lifestyle. i've always been one. The only difference is now i know it, then i didn't. Does this mean i'm jumping up and down with enthusiastic glee everytime i'm told to do something? Hell no. As a matter of fact, because i have so many dominant traits in my personality, i actually thought i was a dominant when i first got involved in WIITWD, and i can be quite headstrong, much to the dismay of my Master at times.

Initially it was all bells and whistles - a game i played and there's nothing at all wrong with that. i still enjoy playing. But once i really looked into myself and at my own past, i realized that i'm not a Dominant. i like being told what to do and i like being controlled. Actually i really like the challenge of it all. So there are times when being a slave feels good and times when being a slave feels like a big pain in the ass (and i don't mean that literally - lol). But it's like anything in life - it has it's pluses and minuses.

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RE: slave vs. submissive round #1001 - 1/31/2007 7:34:19 PM

Obsidiansnamaste

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For me, a slave is one who is most fulfilled with maintaining NO control.

a sub is most fulfilled and happy when maintaining some control...

To this some have said that some slaves and subs have similar protocols, and day to day directives. Yes, but for a sub...under that is the knowledge that she retains her rights, her limits and that aids in her feeling safe and secure.

For a slave, under that is the knowledge that she is totally captive and owned by another and that likewishe makes her feel safe and secure.

Neither is better or worse but each stems from very different needs.

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