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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 9:18:17 AM   
MasterKalif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The problem with Chavez is that he doesn't seem to have a coherent policy. He appears to be all mouth and no trousers. It is one thing to nationalize the oil industry and why not, why should foreigners profiteer from a national resource at the expense of the Venezuelan people, I don't recall the US allowing a foreign country to exploit its natural resources. It is another to go out of his way antagonize and provoke a potential enemy like this US administration which has a short fuse and acts before it thinks. If I was Chavez I would get China and India on board, speak and act diplomatically and make Washington sound like bitter small minded bullies and warmongers. That's what they sound like in regard to Venezuela but Chavez is in danger of distracting the world from the US rhetoric.


meatcleaver, that is why I say Chavez is a clown...he has no knowledge of diplomacy and if I was Venezuelan I would be ashamed...but I do have to say he is hilarious. Being all mouth and no trousers is true, he has accused other presidents in the region as being "American lackeys" yet despite all his vile rhetoric against the US, he is very willing to sell oil to the US...and of course he does....but then he shouldn't display such double standard.

The Venezuelan people are suffering at Chavez' expense and I am afraid you will see most money will end up in his government and with him and his ministers and not helping the poor...like someone else said, I hate to say, whether the oil industry was owned by Venezuela, Norway or US, it would make no difference...

However, you make an excellent point in regards to the fact that Chavez needs to cool down, and take into consideration that the Bush administration is trigger-happy and therefore Venezuela could be added to the list of Iran and North Korea....I still laugh over a press conference I saw where he told Bashar Al-Assad, the Syrian dictator how Venezuela and Syria had so much in common.... lol.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 10:28:25 AM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
The first time the words:  A New world Order  were ever uttered on this planet was from none other than:  ADOLF HITLER!!!


Ah, poor old Adolf, given crdit for something he never did, he had barely got out of the trenches when a BRIT first uttered the words!

quote:


The term "new world order" has been used to refer to a new period of history evidencing a dramatic change in world political thought and the balance of power. The first usages of the term surrounded Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points and call for a League of Nations following the devastation of World War I.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 10:35:01 AM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Meat, many nations are in America developing and proifiting off of our resources(that is what you define as exploit, right?)  Perhaps you have heard of a company called British Petroleum (for example?)  They have invested billions of dollars in infrastructure here in America to pump and refine our own oil and sell it to us.  There are litteraly tens of thousands of examples of this.  Chavez only has any power right now because of oil.  His whole "socialism" is based on the USA buying his oil.  Its a modern version of a Banana republic( One product, one industry, controlled by the state).  It is not stable nor a good thing for his people. 

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 12:14:28 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

His whole "socialism" is based on the USA buying his oil.  Its a modern version of a Banana republic( One product, one industry, controlled by the state).  It is not stable nor a good thing for his people. 


I think Chevez's complaints and why he wants to nationalize oil assets is because from his perspective at least, the oil companies control the assets rather than are just developing them. My understanding is that he doesn't think Venezuela should depend on one customer and feels he could get a better price elsewhere which was why Cheney was supposed to have made threats. I think his policy is pretty dumb but its his and Venezuela's right to do what they want with their assets without threats of inteference.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 12:24:52 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Meat, many nations are in America developing and proifiting off of our resources(that is what you define as exploit, right?)  Perhaps you have heard of a company called British Petroleum (for example?)  They have invested billions of dollars in infrastructure here in America to pump and refine our own oil and sell it to us.  There are litteraly tens of thousands of examples of this.  Chavez only has any power right now because of oil.  His whole "socialism" is based on the USA buying his oil.  Its a modern version of a Banana republic( One product, one industry, controlled by the state).  It is not stable nor a good thing for his people. 


luckydog1:
Are you suggesting that no one except the U.S. would buy oil from Venezuela?
thompson

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 12:34:27 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
luckydog1:
Are you suggesting that no one except the U.S. would buy oil from Venezuela?
thompson


Work it out, size of customer and relative distance.

The US would of course much rather buy from Venezuela as it costs less to transport than from the gulf of persia

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 12:49:32 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
luckydog1:
Are you suggesting that no one except the U.S. would buy oil from Venezuela?
thompson


Work it out, size of customer and relative distance.

The US would of course much rather buy from Venezuela as it costs less to transport than from the gulf of persia


sleazy:
I am sure I read somewhere that China, India, and N. Korea had approached Venezuela seeking to buy oil.  I would agree that the U.S. is a geographically desireable country to do business with as is Brazil.
I doubt that Venezuela would have any trouble marketing their oil if the U.S. opted out.  According to Shotgun Dick Cheny on Meet the Press w/Tim Russert "if Venezuela were to quit selling oil to the U.S, we would just go and take it"
thompson 

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 12:59:13 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
luckydog1:
Are you suggesting that no one except the U.S. would buy oil from Venezuela?
thompson


Work it out, size of customer and relative distance.

The US would of course much rather buy from Venezuela as it costs less to transport than from the gulf of persia


sleazy:
I am sure I read somewhere that China, India, and N. Korea had approached Venezuela seeking to buy oil.  I would agree that the U.S. is a geographically desireable country to do business with as is Brazil.
I doubt that Venezuela would have any trouble marketing their oil if the U.S. opted out.  According to Shotgun Dick Cheny on Meet the Press w/Tim Russert "if Venezuela were to quit selling oil to the U.S, we would just go and take it"
thompson 


what????   America disrespect "sovereignity"?????


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 1:21:37 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
luckydog1:
Are you suggesting that no one except the U.S. would buy oil from Venezuela?
thompson


Work it out, size of customer and relative distance.

The US would of course much rather buy from Venezuela as it costs less to transport than from the gulf of persia


sleazy:
I am sure I read somewhere that China, India, and N. Korea had approached Venezuela seeking to buy oil.  I would agree that the U.S. is a geographically desireable country to do business with as is Brazil.
I doubt that Venezuela would have any trouble marketing their oil if the U.S. opted out.  According to Shotgun Dick Cheny on Meet the Press w/Tim Russert "if Venezuela were to quit selling oil to the U.S, we would just go and take it"
thompson 


what????   America disrespect "sovereignity"?????



Real0ne:
I realize that this is a difficult pill for you to swallow but as has been pointed out by FirmhandKY in another thread there appears to be  constitutional authority for this sort of behaviour.
thompson

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 1:56:41 PM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

[ I don't recall the US allowing a foreign country to exploit its natural resources.



BP (British Petroleum), Shell Oil (Dutch), both operate inside the US to their own profit with the rights to pump the oil from the ground paid to the owner of the mineral rights. Many mining concerns are not US based. They are permitted to operate and even profit from resources inside the US.


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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 2:12:46 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

[ I don't recall the US allowing a foreign country to exploit its natural resources.



BP (British Petroleum), Shell Oil (Dutch), both operate inside the US to their own profit with the rights to pump the oil from the ground paid to the owner of the mineral rights. Many mining concerns are not US based. They are permitted to operate and even profit from resources inside the US.




     Let's not forget the Japanese lumber companies buying raw timber and bypassing American sawmills in the 80's and early 90's and then buying the mills that went broke and moving the equipment to offshore processing ships.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 2:37:59 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You're missing the point. While America sees enemies everywhere and fighting wars ain't cheap, even against 3rd world countries, i.e. Iraq, India and China are quietly rising. Hmm The US under Bush reminds me of the old USSR, the world is round so enemies are all around. 1900 Britain was the richest country in the world and Germany and was the new kid on the block like India and China now. There was no way Britain could lose its power, it wasn't just a matter of not fighting WWI which it didn't have to and looked after its economy and things might have been different. The problem was, the world changed and the world is changing now with China and India most probably becoming superpowers. It's not about the US being defeated but having to come to terms with a new reality because it weakened its economy on wars while other powers quietly built theirs.

Empires never see the end until its upon them.


History teaches us that countries like China (more likely) and India (less likely) becoming more powerful, will do more to keep the United States powerful, than to curb that power.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 2:41:41 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

[ I don't recall the US allowing a foreign country to exploit its natural resources.



BP (British Petroleum), Shell Oil (Dutch), both operate inside the US to their own profit with the rights to pump the oil from the ground paid to the owner of the mineral rights. Many mining concerns are not US based. They are permitted to operate and even profit from resources inside the US.




Perhaps I should have said control. It was Cheney who has been spouting off about Venezuelan oil policy as though he owns the oil. Maybe he knows something we don't.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/1/2007 2:42:08 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 2:49:42 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

History teaches us that countries like China (more likely) and India (less likely) becoming more powerful, will do more to keep the United States powerful, than to curb that power.


Only if its in their interests. As Lenin remarked, a capitalist will sell you the rope you use to hang him with. We are all capitalists now and friendship is as good as the dollar in your pocket and energy is the one thing that could upset a convenient relationship. India has always had more a closer relationship with Russia and seems to be cosying up nicely to them. Though no doubt Russian oil is an incentive.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 3:59:37 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

History teaches us that countries like China (more likely) and India (less likely) becoming more powerful, will do more to keep the United States powerful, than to curb that power.


Only if its in their interests. As Lenin remarked, a capitalist will sell you the rope you use to hang him with. We are all capitalists now and friendship is as good as the dollar in your pocket and energy is the one thing that could upset a convenient relationship. India has always had more a closer relationship with Russia and seems to be cosying up nicely to them. Though no doubt Russian oil is an incentive.


Unlikely any issues will arise from China. The economies of both countries are just so interlinked that a war would devastate both countries. Taiwan is the only wildcard.

Russia isn't a problem right now. Yes, they are still selling their weapons to the highest bidder despite international opposition which suggests they are still hurting for cash. But the US is in a strange situation concerning Russian relations. Putin is not very popular in Europe. The EU thinks Putin is trying to roll back democratic reforms. They also dont like his policies concerning Chechnya and terrorism. Even though Putin has reached out and tried to make better ties with the US, especially after 9/11, the US has had to back off a bit because of European concerns. So we will just have to wait and see what develops with Russia before predicting what is going to happen with them. However, The Russian space agency and NASA have an extremely good relationship. So that's one thing holding strong. 
Also the US has said they will share nuclear missile defense technology with Moscow once it is implimented.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 2/1/2007 4:01:04 PM >

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 5:25:22 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Real0ne:
I realize that this is a difficult pill for you to swallow but as has been pointed out by FirmhandKY in another thread there appears to be  constitutional authority for this sort of behaviour.
thompson


The fbi claims they have NO evidence that bin laden was responsible for wtc or the pentagon, bin laden claims alquade is not responsible for the attacks and just because a passport was "produced" and used as evidence to point to "saudis" we quick go running off to war to blow up "afgahns" and "iraqis". 

Hey now i dunno about you but that makes perfect sense to me.  Hell i always blame the neighbor on the right for what the one on the left does!!

Of course there is authority to wage war on those who attack this country.

i am not foolish enough to believe that one "produced" passport is bonafide evidence to kill hundreds of thousands. 

if fky feels that is all the proof he needs to for this country to claim the authority and justify war fine for him.

There is no constitutional authority to remove the rights given us by the constitution.  There is no constitutional authority to remove my soveriegn first class citizenship status.  but it has been done.  There is no constitutional authority for the patriot act, to the contrary, but its been done. Its matter of record.

As far as i am conccerned the guns are aimed in the wrong direction.

yep a tough pill to look at much less swallow!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 5:46:04 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
The fbi claims they have NO evidence that bin laden was responsible for wtc or the pentagon,

But being a friday and everybody being bored they figured they would drop him right at the top of the most wanted list anyway so they could all go home early. 
quote:


bin laden claims alquade is not responsible for the attacks

And claims he was and that you imperialist americans deserve it and it was all just a matter of time and yadda yadda yadda
quote:


and just because a passport was "produced" and used as evidence to point to "saudis" we quick go running off to war to blow up "afgahns" and "iraqis". 

And dna, and...... oh do I really have to?
quote:


Hey now i dunno about you but that makes perfect sense to me.  Hell i always blame the neighbor on the right for what the one on the left does!!

Of course there is authority to wage war on those who attack this country.

i am not foolish enough to believe that one "produced" passport is bonafide evidence to kill hundreds of thousands. 

if fky feels that is all the proof he needs to for this country to claim the authority and justify war fine for him.

There is no constitutional authority to remove the rights given us by the constitution.  There is no constitutional authority to remove my soveriegn first class citizenship status.  but it has been done.  There is no constitutional authority for the patriot act, to the contrary, but its been done. Its matter of record.

Well I would think that I am sure the constitution has give, taken away, and given back in the past, and until ..... sod it, waste of bandwidth
quote:


As far as i am conccerned the guns are aimed in the wrong direction.

yep a tough pill to look at much less swallow!



_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 6:05:26 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

His whole "socialism" is based on the USA buying his oil. 



According to the book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," Chavez started to lose favor with the United States when he refused to indebt himself to the World Bank.

He continued to lose favor when he refused to sign an agreement with the United States to only trade petroleum for US dollars.  For the United States to purchase their oil, we have to buy Euros to do so.

The United States likes our relationship with the Saudis because they agreed to only trade oil for dollars.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 7:54:36 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
The first time the words:  A New world Order  were ever uttered on this planet was from none other than:  ADOLF HITLER!!!


Ah, poor old Adolf, given crdit for something he never did, he had barely got out of the trenches when a BRIT first uttered the words!

quote:


The term "new world order" has been used to refer to a new period of history evidencing a dramatic change in world political thought and the balance of power. The first usages of the term surrounded Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points and call for a League of Nations following the devastation of World War I.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order


well i did not save my source and have no intention of digging it out for this, i know it was at least as credible as wiki though :)


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The Birth of Fascism in South America - 2/1/2007 7:57:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
The fbi claims they have NO evidence that bin laden was responsible for wtc or the pentagon,

But being a friday and everybody being bored they figured they would drop him right at the top of the most wanted list anyway so they could all go home early. 
quote:


bin laden claims alquade is not responsible for the attacks

And claims he was and that you imperialist americans deserve it and it was all just a matter of time and yadda yadda yadda
quote:


and just because a passport was "produced" and used as evidence to point to "saudis" we quick go running off to war to blow up "afgahns" and "iraqis". 

And dna, and...... oh do I really have to?
quote:


Hey now i dunno about you but that makes perfect sense to me.  Hell i always blame the neighbor on the right for what the one on the left does!!

Of course there is authority to wage war on those who attack this country.

i am not foolish enough to believe that one "produced" passport is bonafide evidence to kill hundreds of thousands. 

if fky feels that is all the proof he needs to for this country to claim the authority and justify war fine for him.

There is no constitutional authority to remove the rights given us by the constitution.  There is no constitutional authority to remove my soveriegn first class citizenship status.  but it has been done.  There is no constitutional authority for the patriot act, to the contrary, but its been done. Its matter of record.

Well I would think that I am sure the constitution has give, taken away, and given back in the past, and until ..... sod it, waste of bandwidth
quote:


As far as i am conccerned the guns are aimed in the wrong direction.

yep a tough pill to look at much less swallow!




what a bunch of rubbish dude, why dont you try and research this before you post it


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 80
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