quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Jane Fonda and all the left-over, bong-hitting, Marx-loving, 60's peace-niks should get on their knees and thank President Bush.  What a gift he has given them.  One last hurrah before they fade away.  The Iraq war has got to be like a giant high school reunion for them.  They get to meet with all their old buddies (those who are still alive or who's brains aren't addled from all that LSD) and once again shout silly slogans and act all smug and superior - just like the good old days! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I notice you didn't say "Our Troops", but "men and women", as if the hundreds of thousand of dead Iraqis don't count. perhaps I read too much into it.

How many Iraqis would die if the US packed up and went home today? I am willing to bet a hell of a lot more than have died to date. No moral obligation there then? Just pull out and let them all bicker amongst themselves? Let us highly paid mercenaries take over? You really want to see the worlds first truly corporate nation? Such a nation really would bring the US down fast and hard.

Ever considered that the reasons so many independent contractors are over there? Allow me to offer a little insight, the left wings of various countries have strangled their military, not enough and the wrong kind of training and equipment, war has not really been nation v nation since 1945, it has been about small groups in the forests, mountains, deserts and jungles etc, but too many politicians (and senior military men who have to be political) have refused to learn the lessons of the last 60 years. If the leftists would just "take the chain off the big dawg" this would all be over much quicker and with less overall loss of life all round.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Jane Fonda and all the left-over, bong-hitting, Marx-loving, 60's peace-niks should get on their knees and thank President Bush. What a gift he has given them. One last hurrah before they fade away. The Iraq war has got to be like a giant high school reunion for them. They get to meet with all their old buddies (those who are still alive or who's brains aren't addled from all that LSD) and once again shout silly slogans and act all smug and superior - just like the good old days!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Ello again Fargle,

I am far from tossing away the honesty of that if we continue the war, more men and women will die.  I also support that position.  When I enlisted, I knew there was a possibility that it could happen (obviously I made it through my enlistment).  The men and women that have enlisted or been commissioned over the past 4 years know up front that they are going to be going over to the sandbox, and with that it carries the chance of not coming home alive.  Yet these brave young folks continue to enlist, and reenlist.  To marginalize their sacrifices with rhetoric is tasteless at best.  While I respect your right to your opinion, being intellectually dishonest about what is going on does it no justice.  I understand you do not like Bush, his policies, or his cronies; but this war started before he was in office.  Hell, Clinton would have done more on the front if he wasn't accused of "Wag the Dog".

We have lost over 3000 men and women to this war, which by all estimates of what was expected is very low.  I would suggest it is the lowest number of lives lost over a 5 year war in the history of the country.  The estimated losses for Desert Storm were from 50k and up.  Thank God those numbers weren't seen.

I wish you well,
Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
You want more Americans to die.

     Pretty inflammatory statement, Fargle.  Maybe pop over to the 'Health and Safety' forum and do some reading on large scale insertions.....

    Same logic;  You want millions of already poverty stricken people to die a slow death from starvation when we start converting cropland from food to hemp for bio-diesel.  That's ok, might drop the price of an 1/8th a little bit huh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I notice you didn't say "Our Troops", but "men and women", as if the hundreds of thousand of dead Iraqis don't count. perhaps I read too much into it.

How many Iraqis would die if the US packed up and went home today? I am willing to bet a hell of a lot more than have died to date. No moral obligation there then? Just pull out and let them all bicker amongst themselves? Let us highly paid mercenaries take over? You really want to see the worlds first truly corporate nation? Such a nation really would bring the US down fast and hard.

Ever considered that the reasons so many independent contractors are over there? Allow me to offer a little insight, the left wings of various countries have strangled their military, not enough and the wrong kind of training and equipment, war has not really been nation v nation since 1945, it has been about small groups in the forests, mountains, deserts and jungles etc, but too many politicians (and senior military men who have to be political) have refused to learn the lessons of the last 60 years. If the leftists would just "take the chain off the big dawg" this would all be over much quicker and with less overall loss of life all round.

Sleazy:
Perhaps you could enlighten us with a bit more fact (as opposed to opinion) about the left strangling their military.
What precisely do you mean by "taking the chain off of the big dawg"  Sounds to me like you miss the good ol days of the Empire where "the wogs knew their place"
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Once again, I'll refer you to the 1972 Election and mention events like the Hard Hat Riots.

     Being unhappy with the actions this country has taken in Iraq is one thing, empowering a bunch of kooks is another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4


Sternhand4:
Perhaps you could tell us just how the war in Iraq is preserving freedom for us.  From what I have read there is less freedom in Iraq now that we are there and have installed our puppet government than they had under sodamned insane.  More Iraquies have been killed since we have been there than under sodamned insane in his entire tenure. 
One can join the service when they are 17.  You cannot vote, drink alcohol or enter into a contract when you are 17.  Hardly an adult decission. 
What is that I do not get?
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Thadius:
When you say that these brave young folks enlist and continue to reenlist why do the recruiters constantly fail to meet their quotas.  Why are enlistments constantly extended at the convenience of the government?  I will ask you as I have asked others why have you not gone down to your recruiter to volunteer  your services?  You have prior service I should think they would be most happy to oblige you.
thomposn

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
I notice you didn't say "Our Troops", but "men and women", as if the hundreds of thousand of dead Iraqis don't count. perhaps I read too much into it.

How many Iraqis would die if the US packed up and went home today? I am willing to bet a hell of a lot more than have died to date. No moral obligation there then? Just pull out and let them all bicker amongst themselves? Let us highly paid mercenaries take over? You really want to see the worlds first truly corporate nation? Such a nation really would bring the US down fast and hard.

Ever considered that the reasons so many independent contractors are over there? Allow me to offer a little insight, the left wings of various countries have strangled their military, not enough and the wrong kind of training and equipment, war has not really been nation v nation since 1945, it has been about small groups in the forests, mountains, deserts and jungles etc, but too many politicians (and senior military men who have to be political) have refused to learn the lessons of the last 60 years. If the leftists would just "take the chain off the big dawg" this would all be over much quicker and with less overall loss of life all round.

Sleazy:
Perhaps you could enlighten us with a bit more fact (as opposed to opinion) about the left strangling their military.
What precisely do you mean by "taking the chain off of the big dawg"  Sounds to me like you miss the good ol days of the Empire where "the wogs knew their place"
thompson

Ask any soldier who served in the past if he thinks the military is as tough as it used to be?
While I was never a soldier I was in the military and am still intimately connected with the service I was once part of and without a doubt they are every bit as tough as   were those of my generation and they have superior tools to do their job with than we did.


Back in the days when there was money for training etc. How many soldiers/aircraft/submarines/etc were owned a couple of decades ago? Compare those numbers to today.
When I was in the military a state of the art aircraft was a paultry 1.2 million today it is on the order of 25million.  A rifle was 96 dollars today it is in the thousands.  That is why there are fewer of the tools of war.


By taking the chain off, I am obviously being mis-read, I am refering to if a politician sends a soldier in to do soldiering he should leave it to soldiers, rather than sitting thousands of miles away and making or second guessing desicions based on purely political grounds when what is faced are tactical not political choices.
Your specific examples do not seem to be incorporated into your post.



I say that from the point of view of somebody who sits here in a warm office while staff of mine are boots on the ground there and lots of other onflict zones around the globe, I do not second guess them at all, I task them with their responsibilities and will support them to the best of my ability, not tie their hands with restrictions that make the mission more dangerous and perhaps even impossible.
I still cannot find the specific situations you are refering to.  Have you written them in invisible ink.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
This and only this will prevent country's like Iran, China, N Korea from entering conflict with us. You want a political solution, then you have to be able to project force in a region, or else.
You appear to be saying that no one will listen to you unless you can whip their ass.

quote:



After Viet Nam, this country appeared weak.. look at the Iranian taking of our embassy. The military was drawn down and under equiped, so we had little ability to defend our nation interests.
Would you please be so kind as to offer some sort of validation for this assinine statement.

quote:



After Somalia Osama has been quoted as saying we wouldnt take the losses to insure victory, thats what gives them hope. Make us bleed and we'll run they belive. This kind of thinking is what led them to attack us.
Well that seems to be the nature of bulllies.  Once you break their nose and show them that you are not their bitch they leave you alone.

quote:



Our own media " I'm not going to diverge into how left they are" helps them. They dont show how we help build schools, roads and wells. Its only negative aspects being shown.
There is this search engine called google (and if you think google is left wing there are numerous other search engines available to you)  if you were to avail yourself of it you could easily find out who owns the overwhelming majority of the media in this country.

quote:



We learned many lessons from these defeats. We fight at night now  like no other nation. We can bomb targets from thousands of miles away now, with amazing accuracy. But you still unfortunately have to put boots on the ground to control populations.  More unfortunate is that it only takes a few radicals/ terrorists to inflict harm on the rest of us.
That sounds like a lesson the english learned from the colonists a few hundred years ago.

quote:



It took us many years after WWII to insure democracy's in Japan, Germany and others. They also were not tribal people like in the middle east.
Tribal????is that a pc word for "ignorant wogs"  How about we let them run their country and we can run ours.  Why is it our job to change the way they want to live?

quote:



Where democracy is a new idea. Education is the longterm answer, with more moderation. We should also not be opposd to splitting Iraq into 3 parts so the sunni's, shites. and kurds can separate.
Kinda like what we did in Korea and Viet Nam?

quote:



It is in the strategic national interests of this country to have at least 1 stable arab democracy in the middle east.
Why do you feel so?

quote:




It will not be easy, or the cost in live cheap.
But in the long run it will save lives.
I highlighted a section of your quote above because of the ridiculous nature in its posting, lets ask the Kurds if the found this to be true, Saddan gassed whole villages into extinction for opposing him. We also let them down after Gulf I  when we led them to believe that they would be supported in overthrowing Saddam.
How about you do some research to bring some numbers to the table. 

quote:




We cant just walk away again. every time we do it costs us credibilty and livesndown the road.
The fact that we lie cheat and steal is what cost us credibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
This and only this will prevent country's like Iran, China, N Korea from entering conflict with us. You want a political solution, then you have to be able to project force in a region, or else.
You appear to be saying that no one will listen to you unless you can whip their ass.

The bigger stick you carry the more people will listen, the more you show you are prepared to use that stick the more people will really listen. Just watch how a cop acts on the street, and how an arrogant criminal reacts.

Cop: Stand still
Crook (making agressive move towards cop): F You
Cop (placing hand on weapon): Do not move
Crook (making agressive move towards cop): F You
Cop (draws weapon): Stop there and lay down
Crook (making agressive move towards cop): F You
Cop (Points weapon at crook): Do as I say or I will shoot
Crook (making agressive move towards cop): F You
BANG!

Fact of life, some folks wont listen unless you hurt them enough.

quote:

quote:


Our own media " I'm not going to diverge into how left they are" helps them. They dont show how we help build schools, roads and wells. Its only negative aspects being shown.
There is this search engine called google (and if you think google is left wing there are numerous other search engines available to you) if you were to avail yourself of it you could easily find out who owns the overwhelming majority of the media in this country.

Erm, the answer to that would be pretty irrelevant, as the corporations are not about spreading information, but making money, and bad news earns more, so makes more sense financially to lead on "4 troops killed by car bomb" than "hundreds of Iraqi children have better life thanks to medical care improvements"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Morning,

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Thadius:
When you say that these brave young folks enlist and continue to reenlist why do the recruiters constantly fail to meet their quotas.  Why are enlistments constantly extended at the convenience of the government?  I will ask you as I have asked others why have you not gone down to your recruiter to volunteer  your services?  You have prior service I should think they would be most happy to oblige you.
thomposn

Actually Marine and Army first time enlistments are up, from the numbers I have seen there have only been 2 months that "quotas" haven't been met in the past 4 years. 
I agree that immediately after 9/11 there was a surge in enlistment.  From my acquaintance with marine recruiters your data is faulty.


As to the extended enlistements,  there are jobs/mos that are critical logisticly, and until another person is able to be trained and billeted to that position the soldier will stand his or her watch.
This would appear to be double speak as to your assertion that enlistments are up. 

I have gone down and volunteered to reup.  Unfortunately, the knee and hip injury I suffered a couple of years ago doesn't get me past the physical.  So I would be in uniform if possible.
Good news....the military has lowered its physical, mental and moral standards for enlistment. Trust me if you really want to go back in they will take you even if you only have one leg.
thompson


I wish you well,
Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
That's because compared to YOUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi men, woman and children is so great, that all the schoolhouses in the world will not redeam your soul get you into heaven.

Your choice is:

a) Bring the troops home safely TODAY, or
b) More dead troops tomorrow.

But don't forget. Any dead troops tomorrow are your moral responsibility, too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
That's because compared to YOUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi men, woman and children is so great, that all the schoolhouses in the world will not redeam your soul get you into heaven.

Your choice is:

a) Bring the troops home safely TODAY, or
b) More dead troops tomorrow.

But don't forget. Any dead troops tomorrow are your moral responsibility, too.

How about expanding on your over-simplistic view

a) Bring the troops home safely TODAY leaving Iraqis to die by the hundred thousand, or even the millions but what the hell the life of one american who volunteered to serve is worth more than any number of people half a world away, or

quote:


b) More dead troops tomorrow who took their equivalent of the queens shilling knowing the risks and despite media reports to the contrary are actually trying their hardest to to a damn good job of making life better for folks who are human too and if they were given the support and freedom they need to do the job would probably actually do a damn good job.

quote:


Your attempt to adumbrate the position of those who are against the war in Iraq seem to be disingenious at best. Are you trying to say that no one except drug addicts and communist are against this fiasco? How peurile.

quote:

"The war is not only not having a negative effect, but it is helping to reinforce the number of people who want to join," said Cmdr. John Kirby, a spokesman for the Navy's Bureau of Personnel.

Even the Army National Guard, which has had 150,000 citizen soldiers mobilized for up to a year, has seen retention rates "going through the roof," said Guard spokesman Maj. Robert Howell.

quote:

  



IMMEDIATE RELEASE
No. 031-07
January 11, 2007

---

DoD Announces Recruiting and Retention Numbers for December


       The Department of Defense announced today its recruiting and retention statistics for the active and reserve components for the month of December.  
 

Active duty recruiting.  All services met or exceeded their recruiting goals in December. 
 




 

Accessions

Goal

Percent


Army

861

700

123


Navy

2,071

2,071

100


Marine Corps

1,761

1,603

110


Air Force

2,330

2,330

100
 

Active duty retention.   Retention in the services remains solid.  The Army, Marine Corps and Air Force are meeting or exceeding overall retention missions.  Navy met 96 percent of its year-to-date mission.
 

Reserve forces recruiting.  Five of the six reserve components met or exceeded their recruiting goals in December.
 




 

Accessions

Goal

Percent


Army National Guard

5,035

4,233

119


Army Reserve

1,257

1,233

102


Navy Reserve

540

679

80


Marine Corps Reserve

493

472

104


Air National Guard

827

789

105


Air Force Reserve

596

565

105
  
 
·        Reserve forces retention.  For August, Army National Guard retention was 127 percent of the cumulative goal of 8,885, and Air National Guard retention was 96 percent of its cumulative goal of 2,297. Both the Army and Air Guard are currently at 99 percent of their end strength. Losses in all reserve components for November are well within acceptable limits.  Indications are that trend will continue into December.
        
To view a fact sheet on who is volunteering for the military, click here. 
 
Detailed information on specific recruiting data can be obtained by contacting the individual military recruiting commands at (502) 626-0164 for Army, (210) 565-4678 for Air Force, (703) 784-9455 for Marine Corps and (901) 874-9048 for Navy.  The reserve components can be reached at the following numbers: National Guard Bureau (703) 607-2586; Army Reserve (404) 464-8490; Air Force Reserve (703) 697-1761; Navy Reserve (504) 678-1240; and Marine Corps Reserve (504) 678-6535.

quote:

  The 250,000 Dead Iraqis so far don't seem to make any difference to you so far, so why should any more matter?

That said. Fuck them. Iraq is NOT THE 51st STATE, and there is nowhere in the Constitution where it says it's the Federal Government's authority pretend otherwise. Bush got into this. Let him send HIS DAUGHTERS if it's so fucking important. If the Iraqis wanted Hussein gone in the first place, they should have had their own revolution. They didn't. Since they didn't EARN their own Freedom and Liberty, it's meaningless to them. Why should any US Troops die for people who won't do it for themselves?