RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (Full Version)

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Wulfchyld -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:15:54 PM)

Raven, you are in the wrong arena man. There is a whole section devoted to Goreans. The sub/slaves who come here, and not Gor, do so because they do not subscribe to your beliefs.



juliaoceania -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:16:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Of course. But only on an equal playing field. Of which I don't view women being equal to me. BUT..........before you go all "woman power" on me............this is simply how *I* feel. You don't feel that way. Obviously. And that's okay. I do not apologize for my views. But I will defend them if attacked, simply because what I believe pisses you off. Which brings us, once again, back to my original point. Be pissed off. No problem with that. But be pissed off..........silently. I may know you are pissed......I may not. But if you voice it, I definately will know, and the battle is on. Then the Mod gets involved, and it's a whole thing.


You know, your views do not piss me off, but then again I do not care what other people feel, to each their own. I think you want  to piss people off because you desire to domineer and control people through their emotions. It is fairly transparent to me, and actually I find it rather amusing.

I also think that those who have to assert their own superiority in any manner really have the opposite view of themselves, over compensating for some lack within themselves...superior people do not have to spout how superior they are.




juliaoceania -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:18:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Not sure how or why you turned this around to it being the dominant telling the submissive to piss off, but that was definately not what I said. So using your own criteria of people not having control of their anger to say such things, apply it to submissives, who, more often than not, are the ones who are telling dominants to piss off. May not like that, but sometimes the truth hurts.


I am saying by the very standards you set for behavior, a lowly sub female does not have the ability to control herself.. she needs a big strong man to control her, so by your own view, dominant men should be held to a higher expectation. But I guess YOU do not understand that, as is evidenced by your posts here.



MzMia -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:28:03 PM)

I would like to respond to this post, with a twist. [:D]
Dominants ALSO do not "owe" strangers/or online Dominants or submissives "anything".
It is amazing the amount of people that "expect" certain responses because we are Dominants.
I especially owe submissive men, NOTHING when they are total strangers.
A fair amount of people do expect certain behaviors from the Dominant person, which are very premature.
It is unreal the amount of submissive males that have contacted me, that "expect" to hear certain things
after 1 or 2 emails.
Unrealistic expectations can occur on both sides of the Ds fence.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.



RavenofPK -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:29:25 PM)

No. You got it wrong. The submissive should be able to control her emotions. She should be strong enough to be what she claims to be, otherwise she is lying to herself and to others. Dominant men should not have to be controlling the submissive to the point of micromanaging her every thought. I know I wouldn't. But as was stated earlier...........this is not my "arena". We are not going to see eye to eye on this. So we can continue to snipe around the issue, or move on. I'm not that overly invested, one way or the other.



PeggyO -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:32:32 PM)

Hello,

Some people consider Ds to be a caste system.  Some (most) people don't, as evidenced by the number of submissives who are clear that they only submit to those to whom they have agreed to submit to.

Some people, such as Raven, feel that dominance is gender based and refuse to treat the opposite gender as peers in any situation.

These beliefs are fine until they run into contradictory beliefs.  Free choice and consent are crucial.  If I do not consent to defer to someone, they are in the wrong by attempting to force me into deferring to them.  They are wrong to expect me to automatically defer to them because I have not consented to do so. 

To say that submissives, particularly unowned submissives should act a certain way and should defer to others by virtue of that other person's self identification effectively robs the submissive of their ability to consent.  I consider this to be wrong.

The fact is that there are no agreed upon standards for calling oneself a dominant or a submissive.  You are a dominant or a submissive if you decide you are.  You are a functional dominant or submissive if you can manage to get one other person to agree with you.  It takes no more than that, so to create a caste system based on what kind of hat someone decides to wear seems a little ludicrous to me. 

Take care,

Peggy



stef -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:33:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Of course. But only on an equal playing field. Of which I don't view women being equal to me. BUT..........before you go all "woman power" on me............this is simply how *I* feel. You don't feel that way. Obviously. And that's okay. I do not apologize for my views. But I will defend them if attacked, simply because what I believe pisses you off. Which brings us, once again, back to my original point. Be pissed off. No problem with that. But be pissed off..........silently. I may know you are pissed......I may not. But if you voice it, I definately will know, and the battle is on. Then the Mod gets involved, and it's a whole thing.

I will freely admit that I am in no way your equal.  That said, I don't fault you for your views. I fault you for your poor judgment.  With the obvious exception, these are not Gorean forums.  When you post outside of that particular forum, it appears as though you're doing so in an attempt to instigate an altercation.  When one inevitably breaks out, it's awfully disingenuous of you to throw up your hands and claim "Hey, I 'm only stating my views."

quote:

The submissive should be able to control her emotions. She should be strong enough to be what she claims to be, otherwise she is lying to herself and to others.

And by the same token, the dominant should be able to control their emotions.  After all, if they cannot master themselves, they have no right mastering others.  Right?

~stef

<Edit to fix typo.  Time for sleep>



juliaoceania -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:34:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

No. You got it wrong. The submissive should be able to control her emotions. She should be strong enough to be what she claims to be, otherwise she is lying to herself and to others. Dominant men should not have to be controlling the submissive to the point of micromanaging her every thought. I know I wouldn't. But as was stated earlier...........this is not my "arena". We are not going to see eye to eye on this. So we can continue to snipe around the issue, or move on. I'm not that overly invested, one way or the other.


Which is it, is she inferior or superior in her ability to control herself?

BTW, I am fairly well able to control my emotional states. In fact much better than men purporting to be dominant and then throwing a hissy fit because I do not "know my place". That is why I do not show such as these any sort of "deference". Why would I show people deference when they do not merit it? When I know that I can control myself much better than they can control themselves?

Back to the OP, any expectation of deference from strangers screams lack of self awareness and control.



Wulfchyld -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:36:01 PM)

[sm=mrpuffy.gif]<------ my hissy fit because Julia will not continue to hijack this thread.



juliaoceania -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:37:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

[sm=mrpuffy.gif]<------ my hissy fit because Julia will not continue to hijack this thread.


Smiles at Loki!



RavenofPK -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:39:18 PM)

Now I'm actually amused.

I was never out of control. Didn't run around calling anyone asshole, or idiot, or even making derogatory remarks about someone's family. I recall that was done by *other* folks.



Noah -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:49:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

But since this isn't Gor....


Can we pause a moment to note that nowhere else is, either?

Thanks



stef -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:50:54 PM)

I'm not sure why you're amused since I never said you were out of control. 

Now that we have that misunderstanding out of the way, please feel free to address what I actually did write.  I look forward to reading your reply in the morning. 

Good night.

~stef



Wulfchyld -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 10:53:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

But since this isn't Gor....


Can we pause a moment to note that nowhere else is, either?

Thanks



[sm=banana.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=banana.gif]

FFS Noah! I had a mouthful of coffee!!

I want disclaimers from now on.



RavenofPK -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 11:00:27 PM)

Well.......depending on my mood, there may be or may not be a reply that you wish for. Because I more than concede that this entire evening as been a huge waste of time.

But for those who are less than sincere, and less than serious, I am sure it provided hours of "entertainment". But more sensible minds have prevailed from outside this forum. Take that for whatever twisted way you need to to make yourselves feel victorious. It is hollow. For those that had the courage to discuss without imperative mood..............I wish you well.



sensualmagirl -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 11:14:19 PM)

I think there was a turn of events over the evening while I was off watching a concert on DVD... lol... but, I had wanted to give you my feeling on the subject...it's my opinion and feelings, so, take it for what you would like.... I hope nobody chews me out, these are simply my feelings on the subject

My opinion is that you do not owe anybody anything until you trust them... no matter what their profile says. Once they have earned your trust, then, and only then, can they tell you "your" place... my place is as my Masters pet and by his feet and anywhere else He decides for that matter, but, that's only after he earned my trust, respect, love and devotion.

If it helps to put into perspective, I had a wise Dom who was my Mentor before I met my Master who gave me lots of good advice and one of them was "Master is a title earned, not demanded" -- to me, this means that once they have shown to me that they are deserving of my utmost trust and respect, proven to me that they truly are my Master (or Owner) then and only then, can I completely and truly submit all of myself to them.

Hope that helps!

My opinion and submitted in humility -- hoping nobody makes me cry because they don't agree... [;)]



Noah -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 11:15:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

But since this isn't Gor....


Can we pause a moment to note that nowhere else is, either?

Thanks



[sm=banana.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=banana.gif]

FFS Noah! I had a mouthful of coffee!!

I want disclaimers from now on.


Well the main this is, he finally got his Tal out of here, right?

 "FFS"?

Is that a gasket letting go or one moe acronym I'm not hip to?



Wulfchyld -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/3/2007 11:18:44 PM)

FFS... For Fu*k Sake.

Is that a gasket letting go or one moe acronym I'm not hip to?

Damn it! You are busting me up tonight!



NorthernGent -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/4/2007 3:06:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

Want to know how you guys think about this.



There's no value in dampening peoples' ideas and spirit as a result of non-specific rules set by a non-specific group. Not good for the soul at all. Behaving with respect and "knowing your place" are not one and the same.



eyesopened -> RE: "a submissive should know her place"...what is a submissive's place? (2/4/2007 3:49:04 AM)

to no one in particular....

i am submissive all the time, it is part and parcel to who i am as a person.  That does not mean i provide sexual or BDSM service to anyone or everyone. It means my need and desire for myself is to serve others.  my job, my interaction with family and friends, all that i do that makes me the happiest is to do for others.  Not as a martyr, not to the exclusion of self, but as part of what makes me happiest.  i am strong, opinionated, assertive but i don't wear submission like a dress i put on to please, instead it is worn like my own skin.  Others will and do disagree with me but i would be and have been the same in vanilla relationships as D/s when it comes to service.  i wouldn't roll my eyes at a vanilla boyfriend if he asked if i would do his laundry i wouldn't fume over a vanilla boyfriend choosing the big comfy chair even if i consider it "my" chair at home.  Other than BDSM activities, i don't make a distinction between D/s and vanilla.  But that's just me.  Each dynamic is as different as the people in it.



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