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RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/4/2007 8:54:47 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I know there is a strong tendency not to judge the quality of other's relationships.  On the other hand, we know that not every relationship is a high quality one (if they were, we wouldn't have so many frustrated, angry, hurt, scared, lonely, or confused people writing questions on these boards.  I don't exclude myself, I post my own confusions and misery from time to time.)

Quivver, trying to compare the happiness other people feel and applying it to your own life is a lot like watching The Simpsons and wondering why your family wasn't that happy.  Sure, lots of people might have liked to have Homer for a dad, but I'm sure glad I didn't.  Different people have different backgrounds, and rationality as I understand you meaning here, carries a different level of importance for different folk.  Some people seem to exist on emotional energy alone - positive, negative, happiness, misery, it's all the same to them so long as they feel that emotional high.  Other folks are the exact opposite; stoicism isn't dead, and some people can simply suck any emotional or non-rational feeling out of a room like a black hole sucking light.  These two extremes of individuals will usually find the most enjoyment from a relationship with people who are similar; opposites may attract, but they rarely survive long together. 

From a 'rational' perspective, it might be worth it to chew on the thought that less rational 'feeling' people tend to be more open and vocal about their feelings.  Rational people are less likely to post questions or ideas about relationships on a forum such as this one.  This logic applies to offline interaction as well; rational people don't tend to discuss their rationality with the same gusto that emotional people discuss their emotions.

And if I'm wrong about any of it, screw it - I'm just gonna go kick the cabbage around in my kitchen till I feel better about it anyway.

Stephan

95% Rational






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Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/4/2007 10:28:29 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Is rationality a barrier to submission?  


A barrier??? hell... I would think it would be a positive contributor towards submission.

I can't see Irrationality being much of a positive force in submission

I'm just going to agree with KoM here, pretty much my sentiments.  No one is rational all the time, but its nice when someone is mostly rational the majority of the time.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/5/2007 8:10:36 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Does being rational and submissive work?  


Being rational and an adult works. I would assume that since submissive are adults who should strive to be healthy emotionally and psychologically, that rational and submissive works too. Not too far fetched, logically.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/5/2007 8:14:55 AM   
Donnalee


Posts: 339
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline 		If  you're a rational person, then that's just what you've got to work with.   

I had a guy tell me that I spent 'way too much time in my head' for him.  That was on about the 5th question.  There wasn't a 6th! 

_____________________________

Just through all of your ups and downs ... know that I love you dearly.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/5/2007 9:01:05 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Does being rational and submissive work?  
I’m sure I’m missing some magic not only internally, but also the experience.
Over these few years I’ve met a few others.  Some have been absolutely Wonderful Humans others,
well… I’m sure I’ve also met the King’s of the Wankers too.  
It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit.
I read a thread lately where a few Dominants mentioned how they prefer sub’s with a bit of  head case going on and I’ve observed where those sub’s do seem to have the key to the magic that eludes me.  All I can attribute it to is my rationality.  I’m not trying to put myself above anyone, Hell I know I’m not!  But time and time again I find myself walking away from things that just are not solid in my mind. 

Is rationality a barrier to submission?  




If you have a rational dominant, no (all depending on how you personally define rationality of course).

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/5/2007 7:51:32 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

If rational means reality-based thought processes, then i can't see how that could possibly be contrary to submission.  But there is a place and time when it is desireable to leave the logical reality behind and allow oneself to feel rather than think.  i have been accused of not allowing myself to release my thoughts and give into sensation, to fly, to float to BE.  
I have to agree with eyesopened statement here..in my own words however...DAMN! I sure hope rationality is desireable otherwise I have been doing it all wrong for a verryyy long time!..eek!...Tempting

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 3:49:45 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Being rational is fine.... lacking the capability to let go and just 'be' isn't.

Heh easy for Me to say. First thing I normaly do to an emotion is clamp down on it, rationalise it and decide what I want to do about it. But I am the one 'in charge' being a self control freak to that level goes hand in hand with being the kind of Master I am.

If My girl Makes Me angry as opposed to simply irritated, she is likely to first hear the anger in My voice as I am placing her into time out whilst I go and calm down again so I am dealing with her in full control.

There is no problem at all... and in fact in many situations it is a good thing for the girl to be able to do that...... but if it goes too far then it becomes negative. Even on this side... If I couldn't show those emotions? Or worse, if I had become so rational I surpressed them and didn't even feel them? What sort of a Master would it make Me?.... Not sure, but it wouldn't be one that would be the right Master for My lovely girl desire thats for damn sure.

Quivver, you say you walk away because things are not solid in your mind..... maybe you are a little too far tied into that rationality. Over annalysing, not giving enough weight to the emotional side.... that is often where the drive comes from, the trust comes from to make a leap of faith, take a chance and believe it will pay off.

Sure, rationaly He may look like he only fullfils 95% of what you want and need.... but what does your heart tell you about Him? Are you listening when it tells you that either He will fill that 5% gap in other ways or even that the 5% might not actualy be as important as you thought in the first place?

Or are you working down your checklist like a good rational girl, ticking items off one by one... looking at that one empty box, that one fly in the ointment and walking away because... "Its just not solid"?

My girl made a leap of faith, she believed in Me well before I even asked her too..... I was working toward telling her to step off that cliff, but when I looked up, she had already made the leap..... I caught her as she KNEW I would.... but that "KNOW" didn't come from her rational side, her heart had filled in those blanks.

In summery. A rational girl is a good thing..... but lacking the capacity to let go isn't.
It is a balance thang!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:04:13 AM   
talibahh


Posts: 389
Joined: 4/9/2006
From: NSW Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I was thinking ...

Another reason its important to be rational when your choosing a dominant partner is...in some spaces you get into as a submissive you can become irrational..so you would want to make sure your potential dom could cope with that when that happens...so you would need to be rational to be able to work that out in the beginning. (My head is spinning did that make sense? )


jali you're gorgeous!  yes it did... very much so... thanks
 
tali

_____________________________

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

in giving You my freedom, i gain the freedom to be me ...
~ tali ~

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:09:43 AM   
talibahh


Posts: 389
Joined: 4/9/2006
From: NSW Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I know there is a strong tendency not to judge the quality of other's relationships.  On the other hand, we know that not every relationship is a high quality one (if they were, we wouldn't have so many frustrated, angry, hurt, scared, lonely, or confused people writing questions on these boards.  I don't exclude myself, I post my own confusions and misery from time to time.)

Quivver, trying to compare the happiness other people feel and applying it to your own life is a lot like watching The Simpsons and wondering why your family wasn't that happy.  Sure, lots of people might have liked to have Homer for a dad, but I'm sure glad I didn't.  Different people have different backgrounds, and rationality as I understand you meaning here, carries a different level of importance for different folk.  Some people seem to exist on emotional energy alone - positive, negative, happiness, misery, it's all the same to them so long as they feel that emotional high.  Other folks are the exact opposite; stoicism isn't dead, and some people can simply suck any emotional or non-rational feeling out of a room like a black hole sucking light.  These two extremes of individuals will usually find the most enjoyment from a relationship with people who are similar; opposites may attract, but they rarely survive long together. 

From a 'rational' perspective, it might be worth it to chew on the thought that less rational 'feeling' people tend to be more open and vocal about their feelings.  Rational people are less likely to post questions or ideas about relationships on a forum such as this one. 
<snip>

Stephan

ahhh... so that's why i dont post questions  thanks Stephan
 
tali






_____________________________

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

in giving You my freedom, i gain the freedom to be me ...
~ tali ~

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:19:25 AM   
talibahh


Posts: 389
Joined: 4/9/2006
From: NSW Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

<snip>

Over annalysing, not giving enough weight to the emotional side.... that is often where the drive comes from, the trust comes from to make a leap of faith, take a chance and believe it will pay off.

<snip>

My girl made a leap of faith, she believed in Me well before I even asked her too..... I was working toward telling her to step off that cliff, but when I looked up, she had already made the leap..... I caught her as she KNEW I would.... but that "KNOW" didn't come from her rational side, her heart had filled in those blanks.

In summery. A rational girl is a good thing..... but lacking the capacity to let go isn't.
It is a balance thang!



Thanks Raven... that's just what i needed to hear

tali 

_____________________________

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

in giving You my freedom, i gain the freedom to be me ...
~ tali ~

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:19:50 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		When evaluating a potential submissive I look for particular
personality traits, being rational and thinking about consequences
for their behavior is a priority.  In order to take them into
sub-space, I need to know that they are fully cognizant of
what they are seeking and what methods will be used to take
them there.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 7:18:21 AM   
asassylilslave


Posts: 93
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Does being rational and submissive work?  
I’m sure I’m missing some magic not only internally, but also the experience.
Over these few years I’ve met a few others.  Some have been absolutely Wonderful Humans others,
well… I’m sure I’ve also met the King’s of the Wankers too.  
It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit.
I read a thread lately where a few Dominants mentioned how they prefer sub’s with a bit of  head case going on and I’ve observed where those sub’s do seem to have the key to the magic that eludes me.  All I can attribute it to is my rationality.  I’m not trying to put myself above anyone, Hell I know I’m not!  But time and time again I find myself walking away from things that just are not solid in my mind. 

Is rationality a barrier to submission?  



I don't believe that it's a barrier; I think, personally, that only a rational mind can weigh all the pro's and con's and come out on top with a solution that is in the best interests of all involved.

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:09:51 PM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
Being rational is fine.... lacking the capability to let go and just 'be' isn't.
It is a balance thang!


RavenMuse must be a mind reader.  This is exactly what I have pondered today, long before reading his words.  I lack a laundry list to check off the boxes, although I sadly admit that there have been times that I have supressed emotion to the point of numbness.  RavenMuse, Thank You!  I belive you've hit the nail on the head. 
Now I somehow have to learn to let go and just follow my heart. 
sigh, easier said then done................ 


_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 4:23:48 PM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver
Is rationality a barrier to submission?  


No.  It can be a barrier to sexually-transmitted diseases, jerks, wankers and republicans.  But that is very different from being a barrier to submission, which does require a rational mind - at least in my world.

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/6/2007 5:17:13 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

My girl made a leap of faith, she believed in Me well before I even asked her too..... I was working toward telling her to step off that cliff, but when I looked up, she had already made the leap..... I caught her as she KNEW I would.... but that "KNOW" didn't come from her rational side, her heart had filled in those blanks.


Awesome post, and this described me to a tee in my first very irrational months with my Master.  It is one of the reasons I said in my own post that I don't ever want to be completely rational.  Wouldn't that make me a bit robotic?


(edited to fix an irrational typo)

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/7/2007 11:24:52 PM   
reofbl


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/2/2006
Status: offline 		Having only read the OP:

From my experience, there are rational submissives.  One learns from experience.  If one finds himself to have performed better under another's guide or influence, he's likely to begin adopting submissive aspects.  Concentrated well enough, these grow into what we know as submissive behavior in context.  It's rational because it's a reaction that has scientifically proven to the individual that it provides results.

Of course, I'm sure there's a lot of other reasons to be submissive.  Perhaps even some rational ones.  This is just the one most rational reason I've found in experience.

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/8/2007 2:22:54 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

My girl made a leap of faith, she believed in Me well before I even asked her too..... I was working toward telling her to step off that cliff, but when I looked up, she had already made the leap..... I caught her as she KNEW I would.... but that "KNOW" didn't come from her rational side, her heart had filled in those blanks.


Awesome post, and this described me to a tee in my first very irrational months with my Master.  It is one of the reasons I said in my own post that I don't ever want to be completely rational.  Wouldn't that make me a bit robotic?


(edited to fix an irrational typo)


If I was completely rational I'd be like M........lol

I am able to have *flights of fancy* while still being rational on one level, about the same thing.

I keep a grasp on reality even when I'm irrational.  Not everything about my relationship responds to logic, so I abandon it....... but I don't lose it altogether.

Things like love and trust can be viewed in a fairly logical way but also contain an element of irrationality at the same time.

agirl





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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/8/2007 2:59:03 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		I was an irrational wife involved with an irrational husband in a ridiculously irrational marriage.
I ended that. I swore I'd never do that again.
Now, I am a rational submissive involved with a rational dominant who just happens, thankfully, to be my Master.

Instead of just blurting things out and dealing with them later, I think things through. My life is calmer. Our disagreements are simply that, not full out wars and I find that not everything needs to be said anyway. So long as I'm not stuffing my emotions, I'm fine with that.

And when something does need to be said, I work through what I'm going to say before I say it so that in addition to whatever the issue is, I don't have to deal with HOW I said something - and neither does he. This man is in control of my life in addition to his own. I figure it's the least I can do. Then, when I do say things that have significant meaning for me, he knows they must because otherwise I'd not have brought it up.

juliet



< Message edited by julietsierra -- 2/8/2007 3:00:45 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 2/8/2007 6:31:47 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Does being rational and submissive work?  
I’m sure I’m missing some magic not only internally, but also the experience.
Over these few years I’ve met a few others.  Some have been absolutely Wonderful Humans others,
well… I’m sure I’ve also met the King’s of the Wankers too.  
It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit.
I read a thread lately where a few Dominants mentioned how they prefer sub’s with a bit of  head case going on and I’ve observed where those sub’s do seem to have the key to the magic that eludes me.  All I can attribute it to is my rationality.  I’m not trying to put myself above anyone, Hell I know I’m not!  But time and time again I find myself walking away from things that just are not solid in my mind. 

Is rationality a barrier to submission?  




WOW. . . Who wouldnt want to be with a rational person and why would that make a slave or submissive more desireable, other than perhaps to make them more vulnerable to manipulation and abuse?  Or, perhaps an addiction to high drama and a propensity for relationship sabotage?

IRrationality is a barrier that constricts good judgement and sound decision-making.  And who but an irrational person would desire bumbling through life without them?

I'd seriously need to question one who might desire an irrational submissive or slave as to their state-of -mind, including mental illness and/or negative, ulterior motives.  Their reasoning for their desire would seem totally . . . IRRATIONAL and to me, one that transcends anything which encompasses safe, sane or consentual.

LBO


(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A Rational Submissive? - 7/2/2007 10:03:17 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Does being rational and submissive work?  
I’m sure I’m missing some magic not only internally, but also the experience.
Over these few years I’ve met a few others.  Some have been absolutely Wonderful Humans others,
well… I’m sure I’ve also met the King’s of the Wankers too.  
It’s been the rational Me that’s kept heart ache to a minimum when dealing with the Wankers and the rational Me who gave up Good relationships due to things that just couldn’t fit.
I read a thread lately where a few Dominants mentioned how they prefer sub’s with a bit of  head case going on and I’ve observed where those sub’s do seem to have the key to the magic that eludes me.  All I can attribute it to is my rationality.  I’m not trying to put myself above anyone, Hell I know I’m not!  But time and time again I find myself walking away from things that just are not solid in my mind. 

Is rationality a barrier to submission?  

Wonderful post Quivver, I missed it the first time.
I think it is possible to be rational and be a
wonderful and pragmatic submissive. 
I tend to be a firebrand and I love a rational submissive,
that can help keep me balanced with his/her quiet/gentle submissive ways.


< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/2/2007 10:09:26 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 40
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