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What to do when he won't? - 2/4/2007 8:42:13 PM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		Tonight I was sort of mildly torturing my "new" (owned a couple/few months) slave a bit. I asked him to do something reasonable, somewhat gross, but pretty reasonable and he outright refused.

What am I supposed to do about that? Punish him? Have a long talk about obedience? Remove his collar and say buh-bye? This issue I have occasionally dealt with and it can leave me floundering. This is supposed to be a consensual relationship where he does what say (extremely simply put). So when he just totally usurps my power, and takes away the gift of his submission there isn't really anything I can actually do within the bounds of consent. I know he'd tolerate a punishment, I know I could have a long discussion with him about what it means for him to do that, and I know I could end things with him, but none of that really seems adequate.

What do you guys do if situations come up like that? HAVE any situations come up like that? Since I only have a couple/three years of experience under my belt it can be difficult to know exactly how to maneuver some situations that don't come up too often. I value any advice. :)

And as a side note, he knows perfectly well where I stand on limits and TPE. He knows that refusing isn't an agreed upon option between us and he definitely knows this type of request isn't out of the question for me. And agreed perfectly well to be in his position from the get-go. So this isn't a communication problem. I've made sure to hash out my expectations and such with each slave that I even consider collaring.


edited to add:

I'd also appreciate any insight that slaves might have as to whether they have done something similar, how they felt about it, how they solved their issue, and what caused it to begin with.


< Message edited by Nikolette -- 2/4/2007 8:45:31 PM >

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/4/2007 9:52:01 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I am curious to know why he refused whatever was suggested. My suggestion would be to ask him and see if it is a good reason or not.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/4/2007 9:52:51 PM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		I think 'No' has to come with a valid reason as to why. There are so many possibilites why someone would say no. Could be they're too sore from the last time and need a bit longer than they thought they would need in the original contract in order to still function the next day. Maybe they were able to take more, or less, from their previous master and thought it would be the same in this relationship. Sometimes to maintain a long term relationship, renegotiations might be necessary. That’s not always a bad thing and can be quite fun.
If none of this sounds suitable to your needs, you just have to ask if they want their release.

~Big

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 5:24:00 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		My submissive has limits, but she also knows that if what I ask her to do does not violate her limits or cause her physical, emotional, psychological or spritual harm, I expect her to obey.  This was set forth at the beginning of the relationship and mutually agreed upon, therefore it's not an issue for me.  However, should there be a need to enforce this agreement, after hearing her reasons and disagreeing with them, she's well aware that all her actions, inactions included, have consequences ~ negative or positive ones.  For the most part, she's always opted for the positive ones.

I'm not the type that makes idle threats and if disobedience stems from defiance, I make sure there's always a hard lesson to learn.  If my sub isnt learning anything through discipline, she's punished by her own hand, in that I make it very clear that she had the choice to obey or disobey, and that she chose the latter, not me.  Gives her much to think about, and teaches her assess her own behavior in the same breath as her own consequences.

Best of Luck,
LBO

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 5:43:20 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Frankly, I'd punish the first time immediately. I don't believe in putting things off so it probably too late for you to do this in your particular situation. Time between only distances the disobedience from the punishment, the connection needs to be strong.

The second time the same thing happen (I'm not talking about refusing to do the same thing, I'm talking about the saying "no" to an order) you immediately stop the scene (I don't whether you are 24/7 or not) and you tell him that it is unacceptable. If it happens again, things are over because you cannot trust him to keep his end of the authority or power dynamic.

The third time, he's gone. Period. No negotiations, no friendship, nothing. How can you ever be friends with someone who gives his word then breaks?

If he really just wants to renegotiate or does like the relationship as much as he thought he would, he needs to be an adult and just say this and have the discussion. The result may be the same but it would be a far more mature way of dealing with things.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 5:56:35 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Did you discuss limits and expectation before entering into the collared relationship?  What's "reasonable" to you may be a hard limit for him.  He does have the right to set limits for himself.  You have the choice to respect his limits and continue on with him, or release him and make sure your next slave does not think of some of your desires as hard limits.

There's always the possibility that he entered into a "slave contract" or whatever because it sounded fun and exciting sexually, not because he really understood what it meant.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 7:23:01 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Ask why. If the reason isn't valid in your mind, what is it directs the action. If he's refusing to do something that ensures your emotional well-being in the relationship, you might have to re-analyze the relationship. If it something small to you, discipline right away. If the behavior persists, it'll eventuall become a big thing and then you'll be looking at the relationship.

Master Fire


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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 7:24:23 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		From what you said, you seem to have made the dynamic of your relationship clear.  You direct, he (usually) obeys.  You both seem to understand communication.  So far so good.

One of the things that is impossible for two people to negotiate ahead of time if you aren't thinking about it are the occasional psychological bumps in the road.  You might have crossed one of these.  The clue 'something reasonable, somewhat gross, but pretty reasonable' might be the telling point in your post.

When submissives begin their journey, they try and work out in their heads what could happen to them, what might be asked of them.  This helps to form in their own minds limits.  But because dominants (especially the fun ones) can be slightly twisted, we tend to think outside the usual box to try and come up with little tests.  Whether we even know it or not, each of these assist in giving the submissive an opportunity to become even more 'ours'.  Or not.  'Boy, if I am willing to do THIS for her, she must really own me/I must really love her/etc.'

Let's say the 'something' falls into a taboo area.  As I indicated before, this might have triggered a psychological roadblock.  What do you do at that point.  Let it stand of find a way around/over/through it.  Because you are aware that this COULD happen, you might have to show how trivial this taboo thing is by performing it yourself.  'See how easy this is?  I can do this simple thing you refuse me?'  Doing this (hopefully) enables the roadblock to dissipate as well as creating a humiliation factor for the sub/slave for displeasing you in what turned out to be just a little thing.

If this doesn't seem to work, you need to find out why.  It must have something to do with this particular request.  You have discovered something that he hadn't worked out in his head prior to this.

Also what would be helpful to know is whether prior to your meeting he already knew of his submissiveness.  If so, then he might have already thought of the possibilities as I described above.  If not, i.e. he was vanilla and you are recruiting him into submission, then it will take longer for the submissive mindset to become ingrained and become more natural.  You might need a little patience from time to time.

There is always the alternative of letting him go, but whether you are wanting to do this would have a lot to do (I should think) with how much emotional investment you have made into this situation.  If he was vanilla and you are bringing him into this world, don't you owe it to yourself to follow it through and make a proper sub/slave out of him?  If he was (supposedly) submissive prior to this, his occasional refusals might be an indication that you need to find ways to further cemen in his mind your ownership.  Do something to further suck him into your web.  Doing 'task' yourself like I indicated before could be one way.

Good luck.

Jeff

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 7:42:08 AM   
SCDommie


Posts: 176
Joined: 1/24/2007
Status: offline 		Before I make a decision, I would have to know what you were doing to him, and what he refused. I am not being nosey, but he could have a reason to refuse. 
I would refrain from torturing a new slave.  He needs to feel he is safe with you although what you are doing to him may seem unreasonable to him.
He may know your limits, but we also have to be aware that there are times, when a slave will act out. Most of the time acting out is due to fear.  Something is not right here.  
A lot of it depends upon the length of the relationship.  How long have you been scening  with him?

SCD

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 8:16:02 AM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		undergroundsea: He refused, very simply, because it was too gross to him. I knew why the entire time. I felt like his job should be to find some head space where it wasn't to gross and complete the act anyway.

bignipples2share: I agree that no is acceptable in any case given with a reasonable explaination, I am definitely not SO new to this that I feel like someone should just blindly agree to any random thing I say.

LeatherBentOne: I see your point here. I think that my slave is pretty similar. He knows he has some areas which can stand work. I don't need to constantly push them into his face, he simply sees them and works on them on his own. I'm sure if I approach this in a similar manner I can eventually achieve positive results.

thetammyjo: We aren't 24/7 but pretty close since he lives very close and we have daily contact and lots of visits. I probably wouldn't use such a short rope with giving him chances, but the situation could definitely benefit by him understanding that this isn't acceptable and that it isn't just about him not doing this specific thing, but him usurping the trust and bond we  have developed.

windchymes: As I mentioned, I definitely discussed limits and gave him a wide wide range of possible things to expect. I went through things that would be in his own "limits" area and talked with him about how they aren't my limits and if the relationship was going to function we would not be working on a limits basis. So the whole time he's known this and we've done several things crossing and expanding his limits. He's had some challenges with that, and I've exercised reason and patience but at the end of the day this is the first major time he's refused something extremely reasonable. However this makes me wonder if the timing had been somewhat different and I'd had a chance to extend the scene further if he wouldn't have done it anyway.

MasterFireMaam: Its definitely not a huge deal to me in its self. I already know the reasons why as well. Hopefully after some additional communication he will not persist in this behavior.

mstrjx: Very insightful. I'm on the same page with you about him needing to work things out in his head prior to the act. ... go over possibilities and imagine them to set his own personal boundaries of expectations. I've always been exceptionally creative and spontaneously twisted and that has been too much too soon for some. He's known about his submission for quite some time, but he was never orignally interested in a "slave" position. He had tons of limits and just generally a lot of baggage with some things when I collared him. We'd been close friends for a couple years prior to the friendship moving into more extensive territory so I know a lot of his sensitive points. I think that if given time and some training exercises he will definitely come around on this, or any thing I put in front of him. Its just that initial refusal that leaves me agast and looking around for answers. So I definitely need to train ~myself~ on a correct response to this rather than just being flabbergasted and startled into a blank mind. With something so simple there is definitely not enough to release him at this point. The emotional investment is huge, not just with the D/s relationship but the friendship. I knew he wasn't vanilla, but in some ways, since he had limited experience and lots of hurdles to cross- he might as well have been.

SCDommie: It was pretty light torture. More psychological than anything, and not overwhelmingly so (in my opinion) he's not that new and we'd scened many many times before this and done MUCH more extreme acts. That was another main reason why I was so startled at his refusal. It seemed trite compaired to some of the things we've done. But as mstrjx (Jeff) pointed out above he probably just hadn't imagined it and created some headspace before it prior to the scene.


... All in all I decided to sleep on it. I didn't discuss it with him while I was startled and so I think that after some reflection and going through the helpful replies I have some things to discuss. I definitely feel more validated at my long term approach with him and my general response initially.

Thanks to all who weighed in on the subject. :)


_____________________________

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 8:17:41 AM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		May I ask what the "reasonable" thing you asked was?  Did the two of you discuss it at all afterward, once everything had calmed down a bit?

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 7:35:48 PM   
StacyCat


Posts: 112
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		So, he has no limits.  If he starts pushing his limits, and they are unacceptable to you, then you should leave him.  You say that reasonable explanations are tolerable, yet are unable to accept "thats too gross" as an explanation.  Thats your shortcoming, and if they are unwilling to budge, its your call.

Personally, I wouldnt ever get involved with someone that tried to push my limits like that, and if I said something was "too gross" then it would never happen because I was ordered to do it.  There are several scenarios in which it would happen, however, the "order" is not one of them.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 7:45:42 PM   
porthuronsub


Posts: 339
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline 		I am also curious as to what it was you wanted to do.  The reason being is once you used the word "torture" to describe it and another time you used the word "gross".  I have never had a "gross torture".  Maybe your slave was concerned about the health issue associated with the act.  If it involved toilet play it is not an unfounded concern.  If it was just swallowing cigarette ashes or something then it might be a mental block that needs to be overcome.  I would suggest being in the scene a little longer, really working him up,  getting him really excited to the point to where he would do anything for you, then introduce it.  Maybe he  wasn't really in "subspace " yet.  Not everyone can just "put" thenmselves in it, regardless how much they want to please you.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 9:18:09 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I suppose you must weigh a single, area specific "disobedience" against your overall relationship and attachment to your sub. IMO, BDSM can be used to enhance a relationship or it can be used to subvert it. Whatever you do, try to determine what's most important to you on your own terms.

As for obedience, Subs respond to Doms who care for them beyond their defined role of slave or submissive. Letting a little thing go because he's more important can often help you solidify your dominant status down the road. Sometimes moving forward requires taking a step back.

All in all, if you feel connected to this sub, don't sever it over a small thing.

If you're in deal breaker territory, I suppose you could try the Tammyjo route, although if you do sever your D/S ties with him, I don't think you need also jettison a salvageable friendship if that possibility is open.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 9:54:51 PM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		slavekal: Yes, we've been discussing it today. He also read the thread to get a better idea of my thoughts on the matter. Communication is key to me.

StacyCat: Hm. He doesn't exactly have limits, but he would if we had initially formed the relationship like that. Basically we'd been friends for a few years. I knew he was a submissive, and he knew I was a Domme. But we kept it platonic. A few months ago we noticed we'd mutually developed feelings for one another. We discussed our differences, and he felt like he could aspire toward a TPE relationship and complete slavery. So that has been how we've proceeded. He has plenty of "touchy" areas that aren't limits, but are difficult for him to accept initially. To answer your comment about accepting a reasonable explaination- that isn't in our agreement, but its simply who I am. I don't think "too gross" is a reasonable excuse. I think "I'm exhausted, I'm sore, I'm sick, I have to work, etc etc" are reasonable. Something as varied and intangible as an opinion of "gross" isn't. I believe if I started down that road (too gross, too hard, too much work etc) there would be no end to these excuses and negotiations, and our relationship has no place for them. So I don't view it as a shortcoming on my part, but rather an aspect of responsibility as a Domme who makes decisions. And him following it is an aspect of responsibility as the slave who follows my directions. .... ...Its reasonable that you might not get into a relationship with someone who expects things to be pushed. I'm aware that some submissives/slaves feel that way, and that is why I was very open and forward about my own expectations and what TPE means to me.

porthuronsub: I think just about anything that is gross or blecky has some element of psychological torture. The general idea of torture is to inflict upon someone something undesirable. Whatever that maybe. I knew when I made the request that it would be unpleasant. And no, there was no health risks associated with my request at all. If the timing had been avaliable, I would certainly have worked him up into a deeper subspace. In hindsight I feel the major issue was timing. I certainly accept responsibility for being in charge of the situation and see how I could have approached it differently. Thus in my previous post I mentioned the need to train myself into not being startled frozen in my reaction, but to approach it differently next time. If one can't master one's self its only natural that one will faulter in mastering someone else.

cloudboy: This is no where near deal breaker territory. Its never been my style to give harsh ultimatums to my slaves. There is just too much investment there for me to do that. I know I wouldn't just cut someone out of my life sharply like that so if I know I can't follow through there is no bother. And I would certainly keep him as a friend even if I did, since the issue was with power exchange, not platonic compatibility. But making sure I set boundaries for the ACTION which is not situationally specific, is important, I think.

All in all I've explored the various reasons, and my reaction options and I feel pretty good about the entire thing, and found a new area for self improvement, which is always positive. I think the whole matter will solidify our connection more as a result.

Thanks again all for offering thoughts and opinions. Its appreciated.

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/5/2007 10:57:08 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Nikolette, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
When there is a sudden and unexpected halt in obedience, there is usually a reason and sometimes isn't thought of for decades, as it has been pushed into the corner of the submissive/slave's mind.  Its forgotten until a Dominant presents it.  It is a scare--unexpected and the person acts like a spooked horse.
 
It becomes a moment of of a pause and reassurance and walk them through it in their mind as well as the physical.  Sometimes the communication to present the same task in a different manner--yet still the same sometimes works well.  I ask for one foot forward in doing it.  Since I don't know what the gross task was he halted on, I'm rather stuck on answering the 'what ifs.'  But, as far as horses go, it is not disobedience that halted the horse--it was their fright and fighting the flight for the sake of their rider.  Horses really do try their dead level best to take care of their riders.  The horse needs to be coaxed a bit forward--one foot.  Then two feet move.  The reassurance of the rider, patience and guiding them through the fright.  This isn't the time to beat the horse with a whip--you'll just scare the horse even more and entrench the fear deeper.  There will be a lot of toe testing those spooky waters.  Once they have mentally processed things...the horse and people, will go slowly forward at their pace.
 
Unlike horses though, people have a better ability to reason.  If they didn't 'get it' and froze at the task; it has been my philosophy to give a reason or what the lesson was for the task in the first place.  Sometimes, it is facing fears and facing unpleasant things.  However,
this task may have triggered a bad memory.  It may not be something solid that was seen or touched but, do consider scent.  Sometimes foul smells can trigger unpleasant memories of the past and from a child's perspective.  An example would be; the smell of human waste.
Elderly in hospitals of my time, smelled awful and almost made one gag and eyes water.  It might have been where a grandparent was or something that was trauma based.  Might have been slapped silly for making faces or getting sick in a hospital ward or saw death on the battle field.  Sometimes veterans of war don't speak of awful things.  Sometimes people who witnessed murder, seeing people get killed before their eyes or what ever--shut it away and then scent brings it all back.  It might be child abuse, to which his Mom or an authority figure that was female has triggered some trauma or fear.
 
Communication is indeed the best tool.  Then see if the lad will do a portion of it.  Baby step through this unpleasant task.  The goal is to get through it with as little damage mentally, emotionally, spiritually and or physically, as possible.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 3:38:01 AM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		LadyHugs:

Your thoughts are appreciated as usual.

I'm not sure if it was due to something hidden in the back of his mind or not. It quite possibly was. As we've discussed it today I have found more insight into his initial refusal. Coaxing forward with love and safety has been my standard meth thus far with him to help him get past a lot of his former fears and irrational dislikes. It seems to have worked in the past and appears to continue to do so in the future.

Many thanks!

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 5:33:06 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I suppose you must weigh a single, area specific "disobedience" against your overall relationship and attachment to your sub. IMO, BDSM can be used to enhance a relationship or it can be used to subvert it. Whatever you do, try to determine what's most important to you on your own terms.

As for obedience, Subs respond to Doms who care for them beyond their defined role of slave or submissive. Letting a little thing go because he's more important can often help you solidify your dominant status down the road. Sometimes moving forward requires taking a step back.

All in all, if you feel connected to this sub, don't sever it over a small thing.

If you're in deal breaker territory, I suppose you could try the Tammyjo route, although if you do sever your D/S ties with him, I don't think you need also jettison a salvageable friendship if that possibility is open.


Please note that my route is not "one disobedience = end of relationship".

If the dynamic is not being maintained by both people then there is no dynamic. PERIOD.

Of course I also don't jump into "owning" someone or getting serious with someone. I have a formal process of each of us getting to know each other and seeing if we are compatible. Not compatible = no Ds relationship.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 5:36:26 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette

StacyCat: Hm. He doesn't exactly have limits, but he would if we had initially formed the relationship like that.


This above is a key to your problem, Nikolette.

Stop the Ds now. I'm serious.

You need to negotiate things and have a solid understanding of what you both want, both need, and both are willing to do to maintain the type of relationship you both want. Negotiation isn't just about limits it is a form of formal communication and it helps one plan for a successful relationship by being on the same page when you start.

Until you do this, you will have a constant stream of these types of confusions, disagreements, and problems. Why would you want this?

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/6/2007 5:37:56 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: What to do when he won't? - 2/6/2007 5:39:27 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikolette
undergroundsea: He refused, very simply, because it was too gross to him. I knew why the entire time. I felt like his job should be to find some head space where it wasn't to gross and complete the act anyway.


Thanks for elaborating. It was not my intent to ask for private details of your relationship and my statement was worded as a question for rhetorical reasons.

quote:

I think "I'm exhausted, I'm sore, I'm sick, I have to work, etc etc" are reasonable. Something as varied and intangible as an opinion of "gross" isn't.


It seems--assuming he does not perceive the gross activity to have health implications--that his reasons to avoid the activity are emotional (mental) as opposed to physical. I think emotional boundaries are indeed valid boundaries. After all, some of the most common limits (brown showers, necrophilia, incest) are emotional limits.

I see much of the world in shades of gray and many outcomes as a result of how opposing forces balance each other. For a given act of submission, there may be forces that motivate the submission and forces that oppose that particular act. One possibility is that at this point in time, the forces that cause him to oppose the act (emotional reasons) are too great. For the balance to change, the forces that motivate submission need to increase or the forces that oppose the activity need to decrease.

Some people find face slapping a hard limit which has potential to upset a person where the submissive mental space is completely disrupted. On the other hand, some people love face slapping.

You might think the activity you suggested is reasonable. I think also relevant is what he thinks about the activity. Simply knowing that you think the activity is reasonable will not instantaneously change whatever he feels about the activity. For a limit to lessen, a person must redefine her perspective about the limit. I think to do so requires introspection about why the limit appears to be a limit. You might be able to faciliate this introspection.

Some limits (triggers) may find their roots in past trauma and are harder to overcome.

I think it is reasonable to allow that you might encounter an area where you may have to proceed slowly or even put on the back burner as your relationship grows. It might help to have a protocol in place for how he should respond when you two encounter an area that is a limit at that time. If you feel that relenting on the matter or entertaining his refusal undermines the dynamic you wish to create, perhaps you can allow a way for him to earn a pardon by begging or by instead choosing a difficult alternative that lies within his limits.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 2/6/2007 5:49:32 AM >

(in reply to Nikolette)
Profile   Post #: 20
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