Ethical issues...

Ethical issues... (Full Version)

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kella -> Ethical issues... (3/7/2005 8:41:47 PM)
Okay, so here's my question (gosh, i hope it belongs in this forum...): in chatting with Dominants, both on this site and IRL, i have frequently run into scenarios where He is married and wants "utter discretion to avoid divorce", etc. In a few of these encounters, the Dom in question didn't even want actual intercourse, just to manipulate me into orgasm, and have me serve. But the wife would still be unhappy knowing about this. what are the feelings here about such a scenario? Either from a Dom or sub perspective? i have turned down all of the offers i've received from married Doms (male or female) who are not openly poly, or at least whose spouses are NOT o.k. with Their playing in the scene without them. Was just kinda hoping to get some other viewpoints on this, if possible. thanks! humbly submitted, ~kella

house1marm -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/7/2005 8:58:05 PM)
my first thought is...if he isn't honest with his wife..how or why is he going to be honest with you?? no matter what,.... people should just be real and show respect with honesty. IMHO....there is no honor in deception.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/7/2005 8:58:38 PM)
I don't know the answer, but let me congratulate you on your showing good judgement in relation to those Doms so far, keep it up, wink. Love your avatar, wanted to tell you the 1st time I saw it. Welcome to collarme. M

kella -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/7/2005 9:03:06 PM)
thanks :) i told the Dom i was in y!im chat with tonight: "my ethical code goes as follows: i will not, directly or indirectly, cause non-consensual pain (physically or emotionally) to another person." i've been the wife AND the other woman in two scenarios such as this... whether or not sex was involved (with me, it usually is. lol ) it still sucked majorly. and as for the avatar kudos, thanks :) i borrowed it from a kinky-type friend on a borderline-kink forum i frequent.

Sunriselady -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 2:08:31 AM)
My personal opinion and one I hold fast to is not to get involved with anyone who is married, or already in a realationship. My Motto is "If they will do it with you... they will do it to you." In my mind, no matter what "reason" they have it just isn't honest, or respectful to their SO or to me.

Leonidas -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 2:32:38 AM)
Hello kella, If you belive that consent is required to be ethical (as is generally accepted in the BDSM community) yes, you're doing the right thing. In order to proceed you would need to have the consent of all the stakeholders, one of which his wife would surely be. Notice I say you would need consent, rather than relying on his assurance that consent had been given. I don't think a strident "I don't care if he or she knows" or "his relationship with his wife is his concern, not mine" as has been asserted elsewhere on these boards recently would cut it. At the risk of an old guy sounding condescending, I'm proud of you. When you start "coloring outside the lines" in your life, a careful consideration of the ethics of what you're doing takes on more importance than it would have if you just did what your parents did. It's good to see a young woman who gives consideration to how her actions might effect others, and consistantly applies ethical principals (like the need for consent) even when that might mean she doen't get what she wants in the short-run.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 3:24:10 AM)
quote: i told the Dom i was in y!im chat with tonight: "my ethical code goes as follows: i will not, directly or indirectly, cause non-consensual pain (physically or emotionally) to another person." i've been the wife AND the other woman in two scenarios such as this... whether or not sex was involved (with me, it usually is. lol ) it still sucked majorly. Been there, done that and I agree, it sucked. There is a huge difference between a married man getting his kicks outside the marriage and a poly household. Should a submissive/slave come to me and ask how I felt about Scooter "playing" with her, I would tell her I'm fine with it, in fact, I may want to watch it sometime... weg. quote: In order to proceed you would need to have the consent of all the stakeholders, one of which his wife would surely be. Notice I say you would need consent, rather than relying on his assurance that consent had been given. Very well put Leonidas! If a married man hits on you I see nothing wrong with telling him that you need to speak with his wife. Jewel

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 5:35:02 AM)
While I don't necessarily believe that if someone cheats on another they will cheat on you, it certainly does happen often enough to be a concern. What lots of people getting into situations like this don't realize IS how selfish and unfair it is to whoever you're wanting to bring into it. They aren't coming into a fair playing field, a secure situation or anything that you really want. Now, it's their choice whether to engage in that or not, but seriously, they aren't looking for a secure situation, they are looking for their own selfish ends. Being "the other woman" in most of my poly situations, I can't tell you how sucky it is to get into a situation and realize that the core relationship is absolute crap. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if you weren't even allowed to be HONEST to the other people about it. Just not worth the trouble for me, disregarding the rest.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 6:25:35 AM)
quote: Okay, so here's my question (gosh, i hope it belongs in this forum...): in chatting with Dominants, both on this site and IRL, i have frequently run into scenarios where He is married and wants "utter discretion to avoid divorce", etc. In a few of these encounters, the Dom in question didn't even want actual intercourse, just to manipulate me into orgasm, and have me serve. But the wife would still be unhappy knowing about this. What do you want is the real question here. Do you want to be with a man who's starting from a lie to begin with? One of the biggest Tennants of BDSM is honesty. If these men can't be honest with their wives, what makes you think they will ever be honest with you. As someone who's watched friends rationalize this one and never end up happy, I think you might want to hold out and wait for someone who can really enter a true power exchage free and clear. quote: what are the feelings here about such a scenario? Either from a Dom or sub perspective? i have turned down all of the offers i've received from married Doms (male or female) who are not openly poly, or at least whose spouses are NOT o.k. with Their playing in the scene without them. It sounds to me like you are fairly new? There's a lot of this going around...cheaters who gravitate toward kink because they some how believe that we aren't as moral or as hung up as the vanillas are. I've found that to not be the case. I've been active in my local munch for years and I've seen "Married Man's Tan" a lot (when they take the wedding band off, but fail to realize that they still have the tan line from it.) I can't tell you what to do, only you can determine that for yourself. I can tell you that I'd pass a married guy who's lying and cheating and wait 5 years if I had to. I just am not down with it on so many levels. And if you were comfortable with it, I suspect you would have bypassed the boards and hooked up with one by now. Follow your gut on this one.... Lily

domtimothy46176 -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 6:44:23 AM)
Personally, I despise deceit. I would spend my life alone rather than interact with someone who had so little respect for their vows and obligations. I think the rationalizations employed by cheaters all boil down to "I want" and, IMO, anyone without the ability to control his base desires in order to meet his responsibilities isn't worth knowing. Timothy

MistressFire70 -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 6:58:20 AM)
Does it really matter what any of us think? What really matters is what YOU think. I know some who would never play with a married partner. I know others who will ONLY play with married partners. If you feel that it's wrong, don't do it and don't let others convince you otherwise. Fire

Mercnbeth -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 7:24:36 AM)
quote: the Dom in question didn't even want actual intercourse, just to manipulate me into orgasm, and have me serve. But the wife would still be unhappy knowing about this. kella, Okay you know what he wants. He wants to cheat on his wife, and keep the fact hidden from his wife. He wants a physical experience with another woman, but either is afraid of full sexual contact due to fear of disease or he will use the fact that he doesn't have intercourse to rationalize that he really isn't cheating on his wedding vows to his wife and his family (assuming he has one). He want to have a D/s encounter in real life after reading about it. Most likely the reason for this is so that he can draw upon this 'experience' for future masturbatory images. Now - what do you want? Is this encounter what you hoped to experience when you posted a profile to this site? Was this your goal? If the experience as you describe is what you seek in a relationship and a dom - go for it and enjoy! As others have pointed out, the opinions of others shouldn't matter. Yours will be the only face in the mirror after the day is done.

BeachMystress -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 7:57:20 AM)
It is a very sticky situation when someone finds out they are kinky after they are married. Not many people are willing to deal with the fact that their spouse is kinky. I personally have taken a married sub. He had tried to get his wife interested in BDSM. She told him he was mentally ill and insisted he go to therapy if she was to stay with him. He loves his wife and has a daughter with her. He did not want to lose his family, so he did therapy. That didn't make the need for BDSM go away. Would you suggest he ruin three peoples lives because of his extreme need by seeking a divorce? Or should he as discreetly as possible, satisfy that nonsexual need so that he can continue in his role as good provider, loving husband and doting father? I understand this is an issue near and dear to your heart. And I agree that a D/s relationship's trust is brought into question when one of the partners is lying to their spouse. Unfortunately, the world isn't black and white, but rather hundreds of shades of gray. I know the kneejerk reaction is that one should remain faithful, and I share that feeling. There are special cases where I feel it doesn't apply such as when the wife has been approached and rebuffed the husband in such a way that he can not ask for permission. Since we do not know more about the Dom whose profile started this, we are not able to tell if they have a special case, or are normal wankers looking to cheat for the fun of sex outside marriage. What we do know is that type situation isn't for you. There will be a lot of situations that for one reason or another are not for you. Your best solution to this type of person is to put it at the top of your profile that you are NOT interested in a married person unless you can speak with their spouse about it. You'll still get a few jerks, but it will cut the number down some.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:11:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kella Was just kinda hoping to get some other viewpoints on this, if possible. Well, since you asked for other viewpoints, I will give you mine. I don't see eye-to-eye with most on this issue, perhaps because I have been on the cheating husband side, perhaps because I've played with married women, perhaps because I am a narcissitic bastard who has no sense of guilt. My view...if I am getting what I need from a person, their private life is none of my business. If they make me feel happy and loved and cared for and complete me in ways no one else has or can, then I don't really care what they do when they are not by my side. I know my veiw is not very common. And this really is a two way street, meaning I don't care if they cheat on me (not that I can really be cheated on, as I wouldn't consider it cheating). I don't cheat any more...I don't lie any more. It really isn't worth the effort that I had to put into it. I would, however, play with a cheater, if it made me happy. I don't believe that spouses and partners and parents and children need to give consent when I play with someone. If the person I am playing with is screwing someone else over, that is their concern and their life. My playing with them doesn't make a bit of difference. But then again, I will play with people I just met at a club like Paddles...so, once again, I don't think I am very typical. But you did ask for other viewpoints...and it did seem you were only getting one. Taggard

Leonidas -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:14:22 AM)
quote: Or should he as discreetly as possible, satisfy that nonsexual need so that he can continue in his role as good provider, loving husband and doting father? From an ethical point of view, I don't see how this flies. He asked for his wife's consent. She said, in effect, "oh hell no". So the right thing for him to do is do it anyway and hope he doesn't get caught? That passes as being noble because things have the appearance of being OK until the little woman catches on? Seems like I've asked this question several times of late, but has she no right to consent here? Does her status as the vanilla spouse make her consent not count somehow? What you're saying, in effect, is that he ought to be allowed to decide for her. All the consent is his. She gets none. He makes the decision for the both of them that him sneaking to his mistress is a better choice than splitting if she finds what he's doing repugnant. Since when did she cease to be an adult? I can't belive I have to say this out loud, but there is such a thing as right and wrong. That's wrong.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:23:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas Seems like I've asked this question several times of late, but has she no right to consent here? Every time you ask this, I scratch my head and wonder what the hell you are talking about. Consent to what??? No one is asking her to do anything. What on earth does consent have to do with cheating??? When nilla folks cheat on one another, is the problem really that it wasn't SSC??? Cheating, by definition is non-consensual...but it also has nothing to do with BDSM. You don't like cheaters. They don't pass your ethical tests. But they can certainly be SSC with the other women and not tell their spouses that they are cheating on them... Taggard

Leonidas -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:37:44 AM)
quote: Consent to what??? No one is asking her to do anything. What on earth does consent have to do with cheating??? When nilla folks cheat on one another, is the problem really that it wasn't SSC??? Well, yes, that is the problem, actually. The "C" is in SSC to remind folks that it's not ethical in this community to be so self-centered that they forget that there are others involved who, by the most basic tenants of ethics, have a right to consent to something that effects them too. It's the basic old adage 'your right to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose". Yeah, you're right, nobody is asking her to do anything, but they should be, rather than unilaterally deciding to alter a commitment to which she is a party. I have to say that I'm dumbfounded that I'd need to explain this at all to someone who claims to have survived in this lifestyle for 9 years. This is kindergarten ethics, Taggard. quote: Cheating, by definition is non-consensual...but it also has nothing to do with BDSM Not unless it involves someone who is involved in BDSM, and claims to value consent and understand the meaning of basic respect. In other words, someone who should know better.

darkinshadows -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:41:37 AM)
How can it be consensual if the other person involved doesnt consent? Why fool oneself into believing that just that the third person isnt your concern... you are making it your concern by getting involved. You are assuming that the cheater isnt liked. Thats not really the issue is it. Its the denial that it means nothing to you and doesnt involve you at all, not one bit. Thats such a dangerous way to think. Not only for the other person involved who you are playing with, but you are risking yourself. So much for after care.

BeachMystress -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 8:49:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leonidas quote: Or should he as discreetly as possible, satisfy that nonsexual need so that he can continue in his role as good provider, loving husband and doting father? I can't belive I have to say this out loud, but there is such a thing as right and wrong. That's wrong. I'm glad your world is so easily black and white. Most of us live in the shades of gray.

sweetpleaser -> RE: Ethical issues... (3/8/2005 9:03:43 AM)
There is a good side issue here that I would like to ask. There are a few of us who are just plain against cheating in general, but in the situation Beach brings up, what should the husband do? I do not condone him cheating, but his wife refuses to accept his need. Does he make a choice to either stay married and ignore his need, divorce to pursue his need or pursue the need on the side? Or, I wonder if the wife could be persuaded to allow him to pursue that need as long as it's discreet. That's a tough situation.

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